The Finances of a Band

[Astrojanitor]

Adjunct teaching is simple. Want to make more money? Teach more courses.

 

Teaching kids is a million times harder than teaching college, not that college profs would admit it.

 

Oh, they'll all admit it. Great thing about teaching college is no standardized tests and no real requirement to pass the kids. They don't want to do the work? Fail. When teaching high school and younger you have to drag the kids into passing. Something I actually think hurts the kids. You don't want to work you fail, life is like that don't know why school isn't. Anyway...College profs have to constantly produce publishable research, that's what's difficult. In order to get a tenure track position you need a book ready and a great deal of conference experience and article placement. Limits the amount of courses you can teach when starting out. Also limited by how many courses the University offers per semester. But even if you teach 5-6 courses a semester, which is a very heavy workload, adjunct is still making less than $20K a year.

[Fezmid]

Oh, they'll all admit it. Great thing about teaching college is no standardized tests and no real requirement to pass the kids. They don't want to do the work? Fail. When teaching high school and younger you have to drag the kids into passing. Something I actually think hurts the kids. You don't want to work you fail, life is like that don't know why school isn't. Anyway...College profs have to constantly produce publishable research, that's what's difficult. In order to get a tenure track position you need a book ready and a great deal of conference experience and article placement. Limits the amount of courses you can teach when starting out. Also limited by how many courses the University offers per semester. But even if you teach 5-6 courses a semester, which is a very heavy workload, adjunct is still making less than $20K a year.

 

This article was interesting - school districts getting rid of "C" and "D" grades.

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38428180/ns/lo...hiladelphia_pa/

 

Nothing at all to do with bands though...

[John Adams]

Oh, they'll all admit it. Great thing about teaching college is no standardized tests and no real requirement to pass the kids. They don't want to do the work? Fail. When teaching high school and younger you have to drag the kids into passing. Something I actually think hurts the kids. You don't want to work you fail, life is like that don't know why school isn't. Anyway...College profs have to constantly produce publishable research, that's what's difficult. In order to get a tenure track position you need a book ready and a great deal of conference experience and article placement. Limits the amount of courses you can teach when starting out. Also limited by how many courses the University offers per semester. But even if you teach 5-6 courses a semester, which is a very heavy workload, adjunct is still making less than $20K a year.

 

The thought of college adjunct or junior professors carrying a heavy workload is funny. The thought of them complaining about their heavy workloads though--that's easy to picture.

 

It's not that hard. Maybe a touch harder in the sciences where the research can take up lab or computer time but let's not go too crazy: There are fewer jobs cushier than college professor.

 

I never made an easier $3,000/semester than when I used to do adjunct teaching.

 

Being a musician won't usually lead you to wealth. It's something people do because they love it (as I shop for a used Les Paul).

[Astrojanitor]

The thought of college adjunct or junior professors carrying a heavy workload is funny. The thought of them complaining about their heavy workloads though--that's easy to picture.

 

It's not that hard. Maybe a touch harder in the sciences where the research can take up lab or computer time but let's not go too crazy: There are fewer jobs cushier than college professor.

 

I never made an easier $3,000/semester than when I used to do adjunct teaching.

 

Being a musician won't usually lead you to wealth. It's something people do because they love it (as I shop for a used Les Paul).

 

I don't know: I taught 3 classes, so that's 15 hours including office hours. Add about 10-15 hours of prep and correcting papers. Add to that about 30-40 hours a week of research and writing. It's not working in a coal mine, but I'd hardly call it cushy. I'd say my time in academia was the most exhausting $3000/semester I'd ever made.

[bbb]

Oh, they'll all admit it. Great thing about teaching college is no standardized tests and no real requirement to pass the kids. They don't want to do the work? Fail. When teaching high school and younger you have to drag the kids into passing. Something I actually think hurts the kids. You don't want to work you fail, life is like that don't know why school isn't. Anyway...College profs have to constantly produce publishable research, that's what's difficult. In order to get a tenure track position you need a book ready and a great deal of conference experience and article placement. Limits the amount of courses you can teach when starting out. Also limited by how many courses the University offers per semester. But even if you teach 5-6 courses a semester, which is a very heavy workload, adjunct is still making less than $20K a year.

 

But, the access to hot 20 year olds has to be worth something....

[John Adams]

I don't know: I taught 3 classes, so that's 15 hours including office hours. Add about 10-15 hours of prep and correcting papers. Add to that about 30-40 hours a week of research and writing. It's not working in a coal mine, but I'd hardly call it cushy. I'd say my time in academia was the most exhausting $3000/semester I'd ever made.

 

So it's rough for a year. The next year, your prep time falls dramatically and every year thereafter, it falls even more. And that one year isn't that bad either. You're starting in a job. It doesn't pay well.

[DrDawkinstein]

That breakdown is a little off. Maybe the churches, or wherever, take a bite out of merch. But none of the tiny clubs or bars I played ever did. Second off, if the fancy shirts cost to much to make, make cheaper shirts. Our shirts cost like $2 each. CD duplication usually runs about $2 per disc as well. Recording is pricey--that's where the expense is. What you do is hit the internet, find bands in different towns you like, and trade shows. You stay at their place after the show, they do the leg work to set up the gig and all in exchange for you doing the same for them. You hit the road you will probably make about $150-200 a night. Gas is about $40-$50 a day. A band can eat for less than $10 and the bars will give you a couple free drinks. So figure about $100-$125 a day profit. Hopefully the van holds up and you should pull in a grand over a span of a short tour. Now split that 4-5 ways...depending on how big the band is. So it's rough. If you want to be rich I don't suggest being in a band. But if you want to be rich your band probably sucks anyway.

 

When was the last time you were on the road? I was out for most of 2002-2004 and this guys numbers are much closer to what I saw than yours.

 

Also, the problem with going from small band to mid-level (something you MUST do in order to get to "big"), you get lots of added costs which he mentioned and you didn't.

 

Gas is A LOT more expensive these days (from even when I toured) and I have friends who had to cancel tours because of gas prices last year. Almost ALL clubs and venues take merch fees. We rarely ran into one that didnt, and that was when it was just catching on 5 years ago.

 

regardless, I completely agree with the last, bolded part. they shouldnt be in this to "get rich" anyways.

[Astrojanitor]

So it's rough for a year. The next year, your prep time falls dramatically and every year thereafter, it falls even more. And that one year isn't that bad either. You're starting in a job. It doesn't pay well.

 

research and writing stays about the same, you just get better at knowing how to place your research. In 3 years prep time stayed about the same--I had no interest in teaching the exact same course over and over. It would be boring to me and unfair to the kids teaching without enthusiasm. You aren't going to cut down on the hours it takes to correct papers either. Reading and commenting on 60 15 page papers always takes an obscene amount of time. I also taught film which involves the creation of a lot of supplemental materials which are wildly time consuming. 70 hours of work a week for $9,000? That sounds pretty rough to me.

[DrDawkinstein]

Indeed. Imagine being a mid-level (10 years experience) employee contracted to work 180 days a year and getting paid 60+k a year, full pension, and incredible health benefits.

 

Now imagine contractually guaranteed payraises regardless of performance and throw in the fact that you can't be fired or laid off.

 

Congratulations, you're a teacher!

 

 

10 years here and you are above 80K a year I believe.

 

 

Consider the average wage in the USA is somewhere around 25-30k, I think they're doing just fine.

 

 

im not going to get into this "teacher pay" argument again. there have already been a few good threads on it.

 

all ill say is, im not sure where "here" is (Buffalo Suburbs?), but for the majority of the country where there are no teachers unions, the pay scale is WAAAYYY less. and here in GA, it's an Employ at Will state, so forget about tenure and job security. Most start at $35k, and if they are still around in 10 years will be around $45k. You cant take the small window of an example you see in your town and apply it to the country.

[Astrojanitor]

When was the last time you were on the road? I was out for most of 2002-2004 and this guys numbers are much closer to what I saw than yours.

 

Also, the problem with going from small band to mid-level (something you MUST do in order to get to "big"), you get lots of added costs which he mentioned and you didn't.

 

Gas is A LOT more expensive these days (from even when I toured) and I have friends who had to cancel tours because of gas prices last year. Almost ALL clubs and venues take merch fees. We rarely ran into one that didnt, and that was when it was just catching on 5 years ago.

 

regardless, I completely agree with the last, bolded part. they shouldnt be in this to "get rich" anyways.

 

my bands went out from 1998-2001. but I also was out helping bands up to 2006. I still help out a little around town now, but I'm not getting back in the van. We were also part of the hardcore scene which runs a bit differently. it's more community based--a lot more organized. You can book a 2-3 week tour pretty easily and know you will have a place to crash and people will come out to the shows. Local bands also donate the bulk of the door to the touring band. Lots of unwritten rules and unethical hardcore bands get ruined by word of mouth. If I was in a country band or something I'm sure the experience would have been radically different.

But I still was never once involved with a place that took a bite out of merch. Even today, the four or so places everyone plays in Rochester don't get a piece of merch. And I don't know any place in Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Ithaca that does either (that's kind of the circuit we played).

No managers or booking agents...we did it all ourselves. I think I know a couple guys that have booking agents now, but a manager is a waste of money.

I did forget about tolls though.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

im not going to get into this "teacher pay" argument again. there have already been a few good threads on it.

 

all ill say is, im not sure where "here" is (Buffalo Suburbs?), but for the majority of the country where there are no teachers unions, the pay scale is WAAAYYY less. and here in GA, it's an Employ at Will state, so forget about tenure and job security. Most start at $35k, and if they are still around in 10 years will be around $45k. You cant take the small window of an example you see in your town and apply it to the country.

 

In PA.

 

And, FWIW, PA is an at-will state, as well. That is, for everyone but teachers.

[DrDawkinstein]

my bands went out from 1998-2001. but I also was out helping bands up to 2006. I still help out a little around town now, but I'm not getting back in the van. We were also part of the hardcore scene which runs a bit differently. it's more community based--a lot more organized. You can book a 2-3 week tour pretty easily and know you will have a place to crash and people will come out to the shows. Local bands also donate the bulk of the door to the touring band. Lots of unwritten rules and unethical hardcore bands get ruined by word of mouth. If I was in a country band or something I'm sure the experience would have been radically different.

But I still was never once involved with a place that took a bite out of merch. Even today, the four or so places everyone plays in Rochester don't get a piece of merch. And I don't know any place in Pittsburgh, Buffalo or Ithaca that does either (that's kind of the circuit we played).

No managers or booking agents...we did it all ourselves. I think I know a couple guys that have booking agents now, but a manager is a waste of money.

I did forget about tolls though.

 

im very familiar with that community as that is where the band i was helping out was coming from as well. the author's post is about the situation bands find themselves in when they step up from that smaller scene and touring community and get pulled into the "Industry". that is where a lot of bands get chewed up and spit out because they are still only a "smaller" band, but are now in a much bigger world (read: more expensive). Once you get on a label (no matter how small), you have no choice but to pay for a manager and booking agents, etc.

 

you are almost better off staying small, unless you have a real shot at "selling out" and cashing in. I have friends that went from being a small hardcore band, to a mid-level band, and now 5 years later STILL OWE people money. life would have been easier had they just stayed small and independent, but the lure of security and stability is strong. the rub is that it's just a lure, and the record company and others involved in the Industry bait and switch you.

[Peevo]

im very familiar with that community as that is where the band i was helping out was coming from as well. the author's post is about the situation bands find themselves in when they step up from that smaller scene and touring community and get pulled into the "Industry". that is where a lot of bands get chewed up and spit out because they are still only a "smaller" band, but are now in a much bigger world (read: more expensive). Once you get on a label 9no matter how small), you have no choice but to pay for a manager and booking agents, etc.

 

you are almost better off staying small, unless you have a real shot at "selling out" and cashing in. I have friends that went from being a small hardcore band, to a mid-level band, and now 5 years later STILL OWE people money. life would have been easier had they just stayed small and independent, but the lure of security and stability is strong. the rub is that it's just a lure, and the record company and others involved in the Industry bait and switch you.

 

 

Couldn't agree more. The bulk of my touring was from 2005-2008, and on our biggest lineups, we were only getting $100 in a guarantee and a $7/per diem for food.

 

I remember like it was yesterday- Feb 3, 2007, heading north on I-65 from Indy to Chicago, and boom, our rear axle cracked on the highway. Poof-$3,900 repair bill.

 

We had to rent a van to finish the tour-no trailer allowed. Unlimited mileage-that was $1,200. Plus all the gas, tolls, and living expenses. It set us back over 10 large, easy. Morale couldn't have been at its lowest point.

 

And at the end of the day, all I wanted was to play music. It's really, really, really hard to do that and even function these days. Most bands, myself included, don't need to be the Foo Fighters and sell out Wembley stadium at 80,000 people a night. Just a meal, a decent crowd, a few bucks for gas and on to the next show, and hope nothing important breaks.

 

Unfortunately this is impossible. Either you get a sincere break and really catch on, or you end up jaded, cynical and miserable. But hey, that's just my story.

 

http://www.myspace.com/speakerfire

[Astrojanitor]

im very familiar with that community as that is where the band i was helping out was coming from as well. the author's post is about the situation bands find themselves in when they step up from that smaller scene and touring community and get pulled into the "Industry". that is where a lot of bands get chewed up and spit out because they are still only a "smaller" band, but are now in a much bigger world (read: more expensive). Once you get on a label (no matter how small), you have no choice but to pay for a manager and booking agents, etc.

 

you are almost better off staying small, unless you have a real shot at "selling out" and cashing in. I have friends that went from being a small hardcore band, to a mid-level band, and now 5 years later STILL OWE people money. life would have been easier had they just stayed small and independent, but the lure of security and stability is strong. the rub is that it's just a lure, and the record company and others involved in the Industry bait and switch you.

 

Everyone who has ever thought about being in a band should read/memorize this:

 

http://www.negativland.com/albini.html

 

I agree with pretty much everything you say here. Everyone wants to be Fugazi, but when push comes to shove the lure of some label taking on the finances is pretty intense. But it can suck on the label end as well. My buddy and I put out a cd by a band--spent about $2500 on it all told. band broke up 2 shows later. Think we ended up losing about $2000 on the deal. Problem is is it is next to impossible to get people to pay for music or come to shows anymore. My roommate put on a show with a really great guitar pop band from Seattle called Visqueen. I'd say about 10 people came to the show. Gig ended at 11. DJs spinning indie rock started at 1130. 100 people walked in the door for that. People will pay $6 to hear someone play a Smiths cd, but not $6 to see that music actually get made. Saw Severe Severe play the best set of music I've seen in months on saturday...15 people there. $3 show and no one comes out. getting real exhausting.

[plenzmd1]

He could make more playing at a subway station and be home every night. Ouch.

K, maybe I am missing something here as I know next to nothing about, or actually nothing about the music/touring biz. So is it normal for a band that is touring to only get $300 a night??? A band with that much following? Cmon, I can't believe that. If you follow that guys math, playing in his band is a money loser, each and every stinkin day. I smell something wrong here.

[Astrojanitor]

K, maybe I am missing something here as I know next to nothing about, or actually nothing about the music/touring biz. So is it normal for a band that is touring to only get $300 a night??? A band with that much following? Cmon, I can't believe that. If you follow that guys math, playing in his band is a money loser, each and every stinkin day. I smell something wrong here.

 

3 bands on a bill minus the cut for the house. Figure $10 a head, that's 100 people a night. That's actually a really good following. Honestly i can not tell you the last time I was at a show with more than 100 people. wait, yes i can. Dinosaur Jr about 7 months ago. I'd say I see about 50-75 shows a year and maybe 3-4 crack an audience of 100. Numbers add up, they should just spend less on shirts and drop the manager. Also maybe not be a christian metal band. That can't sound good at all.

[DrDawkinstein]

K, maybe I am missing something here as I know next to nothing about, or actually nothing about the music/touring biz. So is it normal for a band that is touring to only get $300 a night??? A band with that much following? Cmon, I can't believe that. If you follow that guys math, playing in his band is a money loser, each and every stinkin day. I smell something wrong here.

 

nope, that is right, if not a HIGH estimate even.

[John Adams]

research and writing stays about the same, you just get better at knowing how to place your research. In 3 years prep time stayed about the same--I had no interest in teaching the exact same course over and over. It would be boring to me and unfair to the kids teaching without enthusiasm. You aren't going to cut down on the hours it takes to correct papers either. Reading and commenting on 60 15 page papers always takes an obscene amount of time. I also taught film which involves the creation of a lot of supplemental materials which are wildly time consuming. 70 hours of work a week for $9,000? That sounds pretty rough to me.

 

Teaching "film" for $3000 = overpaid.

 

Stop already with how hard professors work. You're killing me. Come on man. Admit it: College profs are almost entirely a lazy bunch of people who love to complain about how hard they work when they barely do. It's ingrained in the stupid culture. And yes, besides having them in my immediate family, I also have friends who are professors. The science guys do a little more and have something resembling a normal job (with Summers off, sabbaticals, vacations, flexible hours, great benefits...) but the liberal arts people are in a middle class coasting lifestyle, which is about right. Teaching Shakespeare to college kids is wonderful and rewarding but shouldn't be a 200K/year job.

[Astrojanitor]

Teaching "film" for $3000 = overpaid.

 

Stop already with how hard professors work. You're killing me. Come on man. Admit it: College profs are almost entirely a lazy bunch of people who love to complain about how hard they work when they barely do. It's ingrained in the stupid culture. And yes, besides having them in my immediate family, I also have friends who are professors. The science guys do a little more and have something resembling a normal job (with Summers off, sabbaticals, vacations, flexible hours, great benefits...) but the liberal arts people are in a middle class coasting lifestyle, which is about right. Teaching Shakespeare to college kids is wonderful and rewarding but shouldn't be a 200K/year job.

 

I see, a troll.

Nope, no thanks. not going to play along.

[Booster4324]

nope, that is right, if not a HIGH estimate even.

 

At a bar I ran, we paid 300 a night for bands, as a standard rate. There was no cover charge and we had to pay for security. Over the course of the evening maybe 500 people would come in and out. Say 7-8k in sales. Best band we had was these guys. They were actually pretty talented and cool guys. My ex-wife works at the casino they play at fairly often. She says they are up to 2k a gig. For point of reference, this is in Mississippi. Not disagreeing with you, just throwing some information out there.