Do you love the Empire?

[OCinBuffalo]

Thank you for your insight. I started to rebut this extraordinary argument in a number of different ways, but I found it so at variance with any concept I knew that it became difficult.

That's understandable. Sort of.

 

My premise boils down rather simply: everybody loves to talk about the rights they get when they become a citizen here...nobody likes to talk about the responsibilities that come with those rights if we choose to stay here. However, these rights and responsibilities are inseparable and without condition. You don't lose your rights if you vote for the candidate that doesn't win, and you don't lose your responsibilities either.

 

Therefore, the only rational conclusion is that we are all equally responsible for "the empire". Whether we like it or not is irrelevant, and, if we don't want the responsibilities, we are free to leave.

 

At long last, I see that you have rephrased my question in your lengthy terms and provided an interesting way to think about it, but not answered it. Would you like to?

So, asking us whether we like "the empire" = asking us if we like ourselves. Psychoanalysis aside: the answer to the question isn't something that can be derived easily.

 

Pretending like the rights and responsibility can be separated, or don't exist, is...immature(as nice as I can say it), and therefore also irrelevant. The only thing you can do is lose your rights, based on your actions, but a jackass sitting in prison for life is still just as responsible for "the empire" as we all are.

I find your argument that our government is a natural extension of the people, whereas in other "dopey" countries this does not apply, to be remarkable. Our government structure is very similar to a hundred others. I am amazed that you think our government represents the people so well that it is a perfect expression of them, whereas in other countries this is not true.

Do you really want me to go into how every other current government except ours was originated, and then do a compare and contrast? Every other democracy except Canada(sorta), Mexico, Israel, the former Easter Bloc, and a few others, has either been imposed by a foreign power, still has ties to a monarchy, has institutionalized socialism or some other BS in its founding documents, has already failed to live up to the concept of "we the people"(see: Russia), or has some similar deficiency.

 

Only a very few went through the same process we did. Only a few freed themselves, and then had the fortitude to build a lasting, purely self-imposed government. As such, only a few truly, originally, and consistently derive their sovereignty from "the people".

 

For example: a British subject, not citizen mind you, bears no responsibility for his country. Like it or not, that still lies with the monarch. The government may be similar, but it is certainly not the same. Their sovereignty comes from...their sovereign. Here, it comes from us.

I feel that no government is a perfect expression of the will of its people, and that any form of government inhernetly changes the behavior of the people, and that governments are not fluid and easily changed. We agree that government is just people doing things, and the form of government found is naturally derived from the people of a nation. I find this way of thinking unhelpful, however, because my question was really about how the individuals on this website are at variance with their government, or as you defined it, their people.

1. Due to the above, we do not agree that most of the world's governments derive their sovereignty from the people.

 

2. Sorry to be unhelpful, but this "not in my name" cop-out crap has to go. If I have to pick up a rifle/pay 38% taxes so other people can pick up a rifle/be the asset that balances out 20 sorry-assed people who are liabilities to the country, and defend them, because they are too weak to defend themselves, that's fine. But, that doesn't absolve them of their responsibility, they are just hoping I will handle it for them.

[Rob's House]

That's understandable. Sort of.

 

My premise boils down rather simply: everybody loves to talk about the rights they get when they become a citizen here...nobody likes to talk about the responsibilities that come with those rights if we choose to stay here. However, these rights and responsibilities are inseparable and without condition. You don't lose your rights if you vote for the candidate that doesn't win, and you don't lose your responsibilities either.

 

Therefore, the only rational conclusion is that we are all equally responsible for "the empire". Whether we like it or not is irrelevant, and, if we don't want the responsibilities, we are free to leave.

 

I understand your point to an extent, but I was born here, and don't believe that my fellow man has the right to deprive me of freedom, and justify it by saying I'm free to leave my home and let him take it from me.

 

Even in a constitutional republic there is only so much any one citizen can do. Many of us attempt to educate ourselves and share that insight with those around us and prepare/protect ourselves because we don't expect a government to do it for us. However, when a blind majority drags the rest of us kicking and screaming into a state of subjugation our only recourse seems to be to leave (not necessarily an option) or to pick up a rifle and die fighting.

 

I get the broader point that a society at large gets the government it deserves, but there are many among us who fight tooth and nail to preserve what we have, and don't believe that the will of an easily led uninformed majority is of our doing or our direct responsibility. I'll take some responsibility for personally playing into party politics earlier in life, but that's about it.

[OCinBuffalo]

I understand your point to an extent, but I was born here, and don't believe that my fellow man has the right to deprive me of freedom, and justify it by saying I'm free to leave my home and let him take it from me.

 

Even in a constitutional republic there is only so much any one citizen can do. Many of us attempt to educate ourselves and share that insight with those around us and prepare/protect ourselves because we don't expect a government to do it for us. However, when a blind majority drags the rest of us kicking and screaming into a state of subjugation our only recourse seems to be to leave (not necessarily an option) or to pick up a rifle and die fighting.

 

I get the broader point that a society at large gets the government it deserves, but there are many among us who fight tooth and nail to preserve what we have, and don't believe that the will of an easily led uninformed majority is of our doing or our direct responsibility. I'll take some responsibility for personally playing into party politics earlier in life, but that's about it.

Barring the commission of a crime, your fellow man doesn't have the right to impinge on your rights as a rule. Only in special circumstances, and equitable compensation is due you if that happens. The entire Constitution, and most of our law, is based in part on the concept of equity.

 

The fact that our current leadership has forgotten/ignored this most basic of concepts? Well that is a simply a f-up. And, that f-up is going to cost them dearly for the next 10 years. For example: 71% of Missouri voters just got done with "vote against Obama" practice . Link. 71%? In a swing state? The cartoon dog taking a board to the cartoon cat's ass comes to mind.

 

Our only recourse is not the rifle. Way before that, we have the coming elections. Way before that, the Supreme Court's #1 job is to protect the minority from the the majority. Your concerns are being addressed: the fools are being sued, and they just lost the first round:Rational People 1 White House 0. We haven't even gotten into all the non-violent mass protest options that are available.

 

To quote Glenn Beck: "We surround them", not the other way around. The fact is people that think like you do are the MAJORITY, not the minority. Mistakes were made, and this allowed the minority to be in power...for a little while. Now that they have once again shown us just how petty they are, and just how dopey their policies are, and just how stupid they are, things will get back to normal soon enough.

 

B-I-O-B = Blame it on Bush . BIOB is not working anymore. They have immunized us to it by overusing it.

 

But, in all cases, you are still responsible for what this government does, both good and bad. No amount of complaining changes that Tough schit. That's why getting angry and doing something about it is what you are supposed to do. If you feel that strongly, I am certain the local Tea party would be happy to have you. Then, you aren't one citizen, you are many.

[/dev/null]

B-I-O-B = Blame it on Bush . BIOB is not working anymore.

The reason it's not working any more is Bush's fault

[Hossage]

Thanks, OC. I think I understand you. If you extend your argument to its logical conclusion, you end up with the categorical imperative. I won't argue against that. When you get to that point, the state is irrelevant.