Lack of OT's May Kill BILLS Again!

[Doc]

Wait a minute, you're asking how many LTs have proven themselves, and you're asking about the 2010 draft? Um, nobody has proven themselves from this draft. Not one of them has seen a training camp yet. If that's the question you were asking, how many guys from the 2010 draft have proven themselves, then it was a question without a hint of relevance or argumentative value.

 

The last two drafts in which it is possible to have proven anything were 2008 and 2009, and as I said 7 guys from those two drafts have proven themselves.

 

As for Monroe and the Smiths, you didn't ask for LTs who had proven themselves as above average or elite. You asked about guys who had proven themselves as "NFL ready." If you prove yourself as a starter, you have by definition proved yourself NFL-ready. Monroe and the Smiths have both easily done that. And Vollmer is elite.

 

Jason Smith was ranked 31st out of 77, which is absolutely starter material. Andre Smith had to deal with the injury and I would understand if you wanted to say he hadn't proven enough. But I'd disagree. Positive scores in 5 out of 7 games and those two negative scores were both negatives, but not below zero by much.

 

As for Monroe, I would disagree with you about what profootballfocus says about him. Check out this:

 

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?...p;playerid=4931

 

Pretty clear that he had an absolutely disastrous first two weeks and after that looked quite solid. His cumulative score for the season was a MINUS 9.8, which is really pretty bad. However, in his first two weeks, his score totalled MINUS 12.6. Which means that for the rest of the year, he went PLUS 2.8, which is pretty good for anybody and damn good for a rookie.

 

Vollmer was ranked extremely high by profootballfocus, as you probably know, 5th out of 77. The guy is terrific.

For starters, the Smiths only played RT last year, and 7 games or less. Monroe started 15 games at LT and was rated 52nd. That's not "NFL ready" at LT. And they were top-8 picks, which was before the Bills drafted. As for Vollmer, I watched more than a few Pats games: he got a lot of help. And Oher didn't do so hot playing LT when he faced good teams. This year the rookie LT's are unproven, just like Meredith is, but all have the attributes you look for in a LT, which was the point. We'll see how things shake out.

[Doc]

Incognito was the second-best lineman on the team last year. Only Butler was better. Over the season, no, he didn't have a major impact. While he was here, though, he was a major force. And we lost him. Not that was such a horrible decision, as we have to develop Wood and Levitre, but it definitely figures in.

Incognito didn't rate very highly by pff (and it's funny how you cherry-pick what you want from there). And he wasn't a rookie like Wood and Levitre. Again he knew he wasn't going to start, and his penchant for taking penalties is worse than Cornell Green's.

So, it's OK when backups come in and play like crap? Not in my book. You're right, it wasn't a surprise at all. The surprise would be if he's much better this year. You may be right about Meredith winning the LT spot, but if it happens, it's about like breaking up with Kathy Bates from the movie "Misery" and starting to date Squeaky Fromme. It may be a step up, but is it anything to make you feel happy about?

Who said it was "okay?" He wasn't ready to start, and it showed. It's not his fault per se, as I doubt he wanted to be that bad, or even be put in that situation. As for Meredith, we'll have to see how he does before we call him a psycho chick.

Maybin didn't do a lot of it in college, he did a tiny bit of it. And the whole "he'll be fine because he looks like a 3 - 4 LB" thing is just on the surface of it wrong. "He looks the part" is the major argument for Bell, and how has that turned out? You know as well as I that looking the part is about 20% of the battle. The question is whether they can play it, and neither guy has proven he can.

The comparison was to Clay Matthews III, who had 5.5 sacks his entire college career (if Maybin did "a tiny bit," Matthews did nothing). And Maybin looks the part of a 3-4 OLB a hell of a lot more than a 4-3 DE. But again, we'll have to see how he does. And he's not the only OLB candidate on the team.

Who are all the guys who have played in a 3 - 4? Edwards and Davis, correct? How is that "many"? Torbor is either going to be playing behind Poz or behind Davis, or Davis will be playing behind Torbor. In any case, two guys on the field will have had 3 - 4 experience, and none of them have experience with any of the guys around them. And this is supposed to make everything OK?

Edwards, Davis, and Torbor, yes. Which is more than the Packers had before their switch.

You say you have "the key," but first of all, it's one key of many. ROLB is just as important in a 3 - 4 scheme as NT. And second, rookie NTs have a history of not being very good and most of the few exceptions are high first-rounders. As for Williams, he is a heckuva DT, but is being asked to do totally different things as an NT. He's a penetrator and will be asked to be a blocker-absorber. It's two different skills. So if that is indeed the key, then things don't look good for this year.

Actually, he's not. By his own admission.

Our front seven will be Edwards and the solid but unspectacular Davis and then a bunch of guys at new positions and rookies. Without spin, that's what it will look like. None of this proves anything (nothing like this can be proved), but while in the long run we will be moving in new guys and developing the ones who prove they can switch and giving the rookies experience so that in a few years we'll have a good group, in the short run things look pretty bad.

As someone else posted, there is a much higher success rate for conversion to the 3-4 than failure rate. So they don't look bad. But again, the season will bear that out.

[tennesseeboy]

How do you know they could trade up or trade down? There's a strong possibility that you did not see it happen because it was not possible at the time. I don't know why you don't believe Buddy Nix after all this time. He has done everything he said he would do and been a straight shooter. The man said Bell has athleticism and the organization believes he can play. So we shall see if that's true; he is very athletic. He moves very well. He needed to get stronger. He needed a lot more experience. Obviously Gailey and Nix feel like he has all the necessary tools to get the job done. If he's not getting it done during camp they can always try to make a trade before the season starts.

Why should I "believe Buddy Nix after all this time?" I've been less than impressed by his tenure thus far. I am not aware of any rules prohibiting Buddy from trading up or trading down. Maybe he lacks the negotiating skills to do it, or didn't want to do it...but he wasn't prohibited.

 

Proof is in the pudding. He wins nine games with the offensive line he puts on the field this season and I'll eat my words. He wins fewer than the seven we won last year and he should be fired.

[stuckincincy]

As someone else posted, there is a much higher success rate for conversion to the 3-4 than failure rate. So they don't look bad. But again, the season will bear that out.

 

That someone else might have also posted that the bulk of NFL teams hover around 8 and 8, changing schemes or not. In any event - out of the money.

[FLFan]

Why should I "believe Buddy Nix after all this time?" I've been less than impressed by his tenure thus far. I am not aware of any rules prohibiting Buddy from trading up or trading down. Maybe he lacks the negotiating skills to do it, or didn't want to do it...but he wasn't prohibited.

 

Proof is in the pudding. He wins nine games with the offensive line he puts on the field this season and I'll eat my words. He wins fewer than the seven we won last year and he should be fired.

Notify the NFL - apparently we were cheated out of win - we really had 7. Good to know.

[Bob in STL]

I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like 2009 all over again. We went into the season with an unproven rookie at LT and no depth. When we lost our starting tackles to injury we were screwed, scrambling the rest of the year to send out healthy bodies regardless of effectiveness.

 

Fast forward one year: we have the same problem at LT (unproven-coming off knee surgery) and a Raider cast off at RT, and no experienced depth. The tackle situation is worrisome at best. We may be bitching the entire year why we didnt address the problem more seriously. Green-Wang were the best Nix could do? If this situation blows up in our faces again this year I might fill my BILLS golfbag full of cow crap and send it to Nix's office!

 

Don't believe the propaganda about Bells' athleticism and we're gonna run it most of the time so it doesn't really matter. If we don't win this year because of our tackles ineptitude I will have made up my mind on Nix. It was our biggest offseason need along with QB. Nix said he didn't agree with the fans that our tackle situation was that bad-I hope he's right!

Are you comfortable with our tackles going into camp or should we have done more to date?

 

 

How can anyone be comfortable with this group? .... Bell, Meredith, Green, Chambers and Wang. I see one experienced starter, Green, and he is average at best. Bell is still unproven and coming off of an injury. Meredith has shown flashes. Chambers was cut last year and is a borderline backup. Wang is a rookie and there are no expectations that he will contribute this year.

 

Yes, we should have done more.

[BillsVet]

How can anyone be comfortable with this group? .... Bell, Meredith, Green, Chambers and Wang. I see one experienced starter, Green, and he is average at best. Bell is still unproven and coming off of an injury. Meredith has shown flashes. Chambers was cut last year and is a borderline backup. Wang is a rookie and there are no expectations that he will contribute this year.

 

Yes, we should have done more.

 

No one knows how those 2 OT's, Bulaga and Anthony Davis, will fare. At the same time, rebuilding teams do not have the luxury of taking BPA as Buffalo did with Spiller. If Bell, Meredith, and Green are yielding sacks and taking bad penalties, Nix is going to take a lot of heat for not having addressed the OT position. That, and the interior OL depth is full of inexperienced types.

[Thurman#1]

For starters, the Smiths only played RT last year, and 7 games or less.

 

Andre played RT and seven games because he was injured. That has nothing to do with whether or not he was NFL ready.

 

Jason Smith, well, I guess I can see what you're saying, though I disagree. He was just being handled conservatively, given a year at RT to work his way in. You're right, though, that he hasn't proven he's NFL ready as an LT.

 

 

 

Monroe started 15 games at LT and was rated 52nd. That's not "NFL ready" at LT.

 

 

I guess if you want to just ignore the data I brought, that's your right. Pretty much destroys your argument, though. I'll post it again.

 

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?...p;playerid=4931

 

As shown here, Monroe had two horrible games in his first two, and was above average for the rest of the season. Plenty of NFL tackles have two bad games. Monroe was absolutely NFL ready, and in fact has already proven that he's going to be a force at LT for the next decade.

 

 

 

And they were top-8 picks, which was before the Bills drafted.

 

 

 

 

And they were top-8 picks, which was before the Bills drafted. As for Vollmer, I watched more than a few Pats games: he got a lot of help. And Oher didn't do so hot playing LT when he faced good teams. This year the rookie LT's are unproven, just like Meredith is, but all have the attributes you look for in a LT, which was the point. We'll see how things shake out.

 

 

 

Your challenge didn't say anything about where people were drafted. I'll copy it below.

 

And yeah, "This year the rookie LT's are unproven, just like Meredith is," you're correct, but the rookie LTs have not had any chance to prove themselves, whereas Meredith has had a year and still not proved himself. Meredith was in the same class as Vollmer and Monroe, and those two, without a doubt have proven themselves NFL ready. Neither of them was put on the practice squad, that's for sure.

 

 

Who out of the last 2 drafts has proven to be an "NFL-ready LT?"

 

That was your entire post; I didn't edit anything out.

 

The fact is that most tackles get a lot of help. Very few tackles get treated like Peters did here in Buffalo and left on an island. Vollmer was absolutely terrific, and for anyone not desperately trying to defend a crumbling argument, easily proved that he was NFL-ready, and in fact proved himself to be a top NFL LT.

 

I agree with you on Oher. That's why I never listed him. He was bad when he played LT. May do better in his second year, but he wasn't an NFL ready LT in his first year.

[Thurman#1]

Incognito didn't rate very highly by pff (and it's funny how you cherry-pick what you want from there). And he wasn't a rookie like Wood and Levitre. Again he knew he wasn't going to start, and his penchant for taking penalties is worse than Cornell Green's.

 

 

Did I say that Incognito was rated very highly by pff? No. What I said was that he was the second-best lineman on the team last year. I meant it by observation, but pff does indeed list Incognito as having the second-highest rating of any Bills lineman last year, behind, that's right, Butler, just as I said. And penalties are included in pff's scores, as you know. Incognito and Butler were the only Bills linemen given positive scores. (That's from memory, I have to leave now, let me know if I'm wrong, but I don't think I am.)

 

Talk about cherry-picking, you seem not to have noticed that pff totally backs up my argument.

[mpl6876]

Did I say that Incognito was rated very highly by pff? No. What I said was that he was the second-best lineman on the team last year. I meant it by observation, but pff does indeed list Incognito as having the second-highest rating of any Bills lineman last year, behind, that's right, Butler, just as I said. And penalties are included in pff's scores, as you know. Incognito and Butler were the only Bills linemen given positive scores.

 

Talk about cherry-picking, you seem not to have noticed that pff totally backs up my argument, and still tried to use it against me. And penalties are in

 

Thurm as you know I enjoy and respect your knowledge.

 

I have noticed a pattern between you and Doc. He seems to always challenge almost everything you say. He seems to have to "1 up" you? Case in point the Incognito post.

 

Nevertheless, I do enjoy you "outwitting" him on almost all accounts.

 

No comment needed. Just a pat on your back for doing it with such conviction and professionalism.

[thewildrabbit]

No one knows how those 2 OT's, Bulaga and Anthony Davis, will fare. At the same time, rebuilding teams do not have the luxury of taking BPA as Buffalo did with Spiller. If Bell, Meredith, and Green are yielding sacks and taking bad penalties, Nix is going to take a lot of heat for not having addressed the OT position. That, and the interior OL depth is full of inexperienced types.

Amen!

 

There have been numerous threads about the O line the last few years, and I think the problem with the Bills O line will continue to exist because same head scout has been with the team since 2002. Previous to Wood and Levitre the Bills have had one decent player drafted for the line since 02 and that was Brad Butler, not saying much for an 7 year span.

 

Who really knows at this point if Wood and Levitre can become top players at their positions as the Bills did spend a #1 & #2 draft picks on them. Those two had better become really good as those early picks are usually reserved for tackles, unless the team thinks they will become pro bowlers..

 

Considering that the O line stayed basically the same this off season as last years O line and the Bills failed to address the LT position until round five leads me to believe they(coaches-scouts-GM) think the current players can get the job done. I've witnessed them play and I don't think any of the tackles currently on the Bills roster are going to get the job done this year.

 

 

Frankly IMO the Bills are lacking a head scout that knows how to do his job concerning O linemen and defensive ends. Plus they are lacking a veteran experienced O line coach to help all these young players develop. I don't have much faith in this new HC and GM because of the current O line situation.

[mpl6876]

Amen!

 

There have been numerous threads about the O line the last few years, and I think the problem with the Bills O line will continue to exist because same head scout has been with the team since 2002. Previous to Wood and Levitre the Bills have had one decent player drafted for the line since 02 and that was Brad Butler, not saying much for an 7 year span.

 

Who really knows at this point if Wood and Levitre can become top players at their positions as the Bills did spend a #1 & #2 draft picks on them. Those two had better become really good as those early picks are usually reserved for tackles, unless the team thinks they will become pro bowlers..

 

Considering that the O line stayed basically the same this off season as last years O line and the Bills failed to address the LT position until round five leads me to believe they(coaches-scouts-GM) think the current players can get the job done. I've witnessed them play and I don't think any of the tackles currently on the Bills roster are going to get the job done this year.

 

 

Frankly IMO the Bills are lacking a head scout that knows how to do his job concerning O linemen and defensive ends. Plus they are lacking a veteran experienced O line coach to help all these young players develop. I don't have much faith in this new HC and GM because of the current O line situation.

 

Rabbit, Well said and well stated. I have been pretty much echoing that theme for quite awhile. I usually get responses like: Who would you have drafted? We can't fill all our needs in one draft? I have responded to those answers.

 

I am not well liked here so my words don't have as much impact. I am partly to blame for that. Nevertheless, it is refreshing to see that everyone isn't buying into this new regime. It's good to see some honest constructive criticism on the board.

[Doc]

Andre played RT and seven games because he was injured. That has nothing to do with whether or not he was NFL ready.

 

Jason Smith, well, I guess I can see what you're saying, though I disagree. He was just being handled conservatively, given a year at RT to work his way in. You're right, though, that he hasn't proven he's NFL ready as an LT.

 

I guess if you want to just ignore the data I brought, that's your right. Pretty much destroys your argument, though. I'll post it again.

 

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?...p;playerid=4931

 

As shown here, Monroe had two horrible games in his first two, and was above average for the rest of the season. Plenty of NFL tackles have two bad games. Monroe was absolutely NFL ready, and in fact has already proven that he's going to be a force at LT for the next decade.

Again Thurm, "NFL ready at LT." And those game-by-game stats show that Monroe was up-and-down even at the end of the season. It doesn't destroy much. If anything, it shows you that taking a 2-3 game stretch and projecting off of that leads you to say things like "Butler and then Incognito were the Bills' 2 best OL last year."

Your challenge didn't say anything about where people were drafted. I'll copy it below.

It's implied, Thurm. If the complaint is why the Bills haven't addressed the LT spot, things need to be put in context (similar to why I asked for the 2009 and 2010 drafts, since the Bills still had Peters in 2008). OT's taken before the Bills picked in the 1st round don't count.

And yeah, "This year the rookie LT's are unproven, just like Meredith is," you're correct, but the rookie LTs have not had any chance to prove themselves, whereas Meredith has had a year and still not proved himself. Meredith was in the same class as Vollmer and Monroe, and those two, without a doubt have proven themselves NFL ready. Neither of them was put on the practice squad, that's for sure.

 

That was your entire post; I didn't edit anything out.

 

The fact is that most tackles get a lot of help. Very few tackles get treated like Peters did here in Buffalo and left on an island. Vollmer was absolutely terrific, and for anyone not desperately trying to defend a crumbling argument, easily proved that he was NFL-ready, and in fact proved himself to be a top NFL LT.

 

I agree with you on Oher. That's why I never listed him. He was bad when he played LT. May do better in his second year, but he wasn't an NFL ready LT in his first year.

Meredith didn't prove to be incapable of playing RT last year, despite his limited (he played about 1/4 of a season in snaps) playing time. If we do a Eugene Monroe, he was average and finished well against the Colts. What does it mean? We'll have to find out.

 

Thurm as you know I enjoy and respect your knowledge.

 

I have noticed a pattern between you and Doc. He seems to always challenge almost everything you say. He seems to have to "1 up" you? Case in point the Incognito post.

 

Nevertheless, I do enjoy you "outwitting" him on almost all accounts.

 

No comment needed. Just a pat on your back for doing it with such conviction and professionalism.

Another endorsement from mpl. Likewise, no comment needed.

[mpl6876]

I was wondering if you are supporting the front office (past and present) decisions "not to adequately" addressing the offensive tackle positions? Are you happy with our current offensive line? Do you think they will develop into a cohesive unit and be solid and productive?

 

I don't know what your answers will be. As for me, I cannot support the front office decisions on not addressing the tackle positions. They have had numerous opportunities to address the situation. By all reasonable accounts Green in not the answer at RT, Hartgardner is average at best, Meridith/Bell are projects as best and will likely never amount to a solid NFL LT. Wood and Levtrie look promising and I give Dick Juaron some credit for those picks. Yes, the dick Juaron everyone likes to "hammer."

 

Instead we are left with a "scat back" who by the front office words was the "BPA" so they had to take him?

 

You can try to defend the offensive line all you want...the bottom line is IMO, this unit is very weak at best adequate and we will never be a contender until we can solve this problem. Getting Green and drafting Wang didn't do anything to help this porous unit. Another year of wait and see.....You don't know how bad that pains me...

[Doc]

I was wondering if you are supporting the front office (past and present) decisions "not to adequately" addressing the offensive tackle positions? Are you happy with our current offensive line? Do you think they will develop into a cohesive unit and be solid and productive?

 

I don't know what your answers will be. As for me, I cannot support the front office decisions on not addressing the tackle positions. They have had numerous opportunities to address the situation. By all reasonable accounts Green in not the answer at RT, Hartgardner is average at best, Meridith/Bell are projects as best and will likely never amount to a solid NFL LT. Wood and Levtrie look promising and I give Dick Juaron some credit for those picks. Yes, the dick Juaron everyone likes to "hammer."

 

Instead we are left with a "scat back" who by the front office words was the "BPA" so they had to take him?

 

You can try to defend the offensive line all you want...the bottom line is IMO, this unit is very weak at best adequate and we will never be a contender until we can solve this problem. Getting Green and drafting Wang didn't do anything to help this porous unit. Another year of wait and see.....You don't know how bad that pains me...

They've been addressing the O-line, but many of the players haven't worked out. And things like Peters demanding to be the highest-paid LT after his first Pro Bowl season and forcing a trade, and Butler retiring, are mostly out of the control of the Bills. As you said, they addressed the interior (although I'll still say that Hangman is better than average and was hamstrung playing between 2 rookies, with a bad back to boot), and they have some candidates at OT. I didn't see any surefire LT's after the first 2 were taken, they signed Green to play RT for at least the year, and drafted Wang and Calloway. If they don't pan out, they'll draft or sign a LT next year.

[milehiLou]

I don't think I am qualified to answer that question. I don't know what happened in the draft room. I think I would have tried to trade the pick and get more picks knowing we could have gotten our NT or OT. Could have gotten Davis, NT WIlliams, Buluga, Etc... The one thing that really bothered me on draft day was the way the Bills ran up to the podium and picked Spiller. They had ten fing minutes to see if anyone could have offered them a trade. They didn't even consider it. I believe that was a huge error. There was no reason to rush the pick. I know your going to say that was their guy and they grabbed him. Still, I think maybe a better offer may have been there if they waited...

 

I can answer you question by saying I wasn't happy with the Spiller pick.

they obviously took a playmaker (extraordinary) instead of a trench type player (dime a dozen).

 

do you think the titans are kicking themselves for taking chris johnson over duane brown or kentawn balmer? LOL

[BobbyC81]

I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like 2009 all over again. We went into the season with an unproven rookie at LT and no depth. When we lost our starting tackles to injury we were screwed, scrambling the rest of the year to send out healthy bodies regardless of effectiveness.

 

Fast forward one year: we have the same problem at LT (unproven-coming off knee surgery) and a Raider cast off at RT, and no experienced depth. The tackle situation is worrisome at best. We may be bitching the entire year why we didnt address the problem more seriously. Green-Wang were the best Nix could do? If this situation blows up in our faces again this year I might fill my BILLS golfbag full of cow crap and send it to Nix's office!

 

Don't believe the propaganda about Bells' athleticism and we're gonna run it most of the time so it doesn't really matter. If we don't win this year because of our tackles ineptitude I will have made up my mind on Nix. It was our biggest offseason need along with QB. Nix said he didn't agree with the fans that our tackle situation was that bad-I hope he's right!

Are you comfortable with our tackles going into camp or should we have done more to date?

 

So, Green will get cut right before the 1st game??

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Why should I "believe Buddy Nix after all this time?" I've been less than impressed by his tenure thus far. I am not aware of any rules prohibiting Buddy from trading up or trading down. Maybe he lacks the negotiating skills to do it, or didn't want to do it...but he wasn't prohibited.

 

Proof is in the pudding. He wins nine games with the offensive line he puts on the field this season and I'll eat my words. He wins fewer than the seven we won last year and he should be fired.

I agree. First year GMs like him may not even know how to play the negotiating game with other GMs. Let's face it, we have a 70 yr old learning on the job as a first time GM.

[mpl6876]

Why should I "believe Buddy Nix after all this time?" I've been less than impressed by his tenure thus far. I am not aware of any rules prohibiting Buddy from trading up or trading down. Maybe he lacks the negotiating skills to do it, or didn't want to do it...but he wasn't prohibited.

 

Proof is in the pudding. He wins nine games with the offensive line he puts on the field this season and I'll eat my words. He wins fewer than the seven we won last year and he should be fired.

 

Tennessee, I like your post and generally agree with what you have written. Even for me that statement is a little over the top. Nix and Gailey inherited a bunch of Dick Juaron's poop. You have to take that into consideration too. One year is too soon to axe them. I agree I haven't been impressed either.

[mpl6876]

They've been addressing the O-line, but many of the players haven't worked out. And things like Peters demanding to be the highest-paid LT after his first Pro Bowl season and forcing a trade, and Butler retiring, are mostly out of the control of the Bills. As you said, they addressed the interior (although I'll still say that Hangman is better than average and was hamstrung playing between 2 rookies, with a bad back to boot), and they have some candidates at OT. I didn't see any surefire LT's after the first 2 were taken, they signed Green to play RT for at least the year, and drafted Wang and Calloway. If they don't pan out, they'll draft or sign a LT next year.

 

Fair enough response Doc. I don't think they have done enough but I respect your response back.