Lack of OT's May Kill BILLS Again!

[Thurman#1]

I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like 2009 all over again. We went into the season with an unproven rookie at LT and no depth. When we lost our starting tackles to injury we were screwed, scrambling the rest of the year to send out healthy bodies regardless of effectiveness.

 

Fast forward one year: we have the same problem at LT (unproven-coming off knee surgery) and a Raider cast off at RT, and no experienced depth. The tackle situation is worrisome at best. We may be bitching the entire year why we didnt address the problem more seriously. Green-Wang were the best Nix could do? If this situation blows up in our faces again this year I might fill my BILLS golfbag full of cow crap and send it to Nix's office!

 

Don't believe the propaganda about Bells' athleticism and we're gonna run it most of the time so it doesn't really matter. If we don't win this year because of our tackles ineptitude I will have made up my mind on Nix. It was our biggest offseason need along with QB. Nix said he didn't agree with the fans that our tackle situation was that bad-I hope he's right!

Are you comfortable with our tackles going into camp or should we have done more to date?

 

 

 

Nix doesn't really care about this year. The Bills are rebuilding. They are aiming at being good in 2012 or so. If Wang isn't good enough by then, we'll get a decent LT somewhere. Or try.

[Thurman#1]

It still makes no sense that people think the Bills will be one of the worst teams in the league, much less worse than last year. They won 6 games with a worse OT situation (especially after Butler went down in game 2), had 2 rookies starting on the O-line and up to 4 rookie/rookie starters on the O-line at one time because of injuries, Lynch was out of shape and missed the first 3 games, Nelson was a rookie, and the OC'ing was lousy. On defense, they couldn't stop the run and wore down as games went on. And the ST's were a disappointment all around. Now on the downside, the Bills lost TO, who was the only other proven WR beside Evans and Reed, who is also gone. Still, I don't think that WR is enough to kill the team.

 

 

 

The Bills improved a lot last year when Bell went out. His replacements, all career backups, were immediately better. Now, he's back. Last year we had Incognito through quite a bit of the season. And our schedule last year turned out to be extremely easy, which was a major reason we managed six wins.

 

As for the rest of the team, the folks who want to question why we'll be worse always say, "hey we've got the same personnel, basically ..." but the problem is that many of our defenders are playing positions they've never played before (see Kyle Williams, Maybin, Stroud and Kelsay, not to mention Schobel if he returns). At these new positions, they are essentially unproven rookies. Folks want to ignore that, but it's huge. Two to three of those four are unlikely to be on this team after this year or maybe next. And a lot of the platoon guys / new guys are rookies, and that means they'll make a lot of mistakes.

 

Throw in nobody who has proved that they can rush the passer ... If Schobel goes, that will be a major major loss. And if he returns, who knows how good he'll be as an OLB.

[Thurman#1]

Who out of the last 2 drafts has proven to be an "NFL-ready LT?"

 

 

 

2009: Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith (after he got healthy, he played very solidly), Jason Smith, though his season ended early, and best of all of them, Sebastian Vollmer.

 

2008: Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Sam Baker.

 

Didn't have to dig very far for them.

 

That's seven guys, almost a quarter of all the starting LTs in the league.

[Doc]

The Bills improved a lot last year when Bell went out. His replacements, all career backups, were immediately better. Now, he's back. Last year we had Incognito through quite a bit of the season. And our schedule last year turned out to be extremely easy, which was a major reason we managed six wins.

 

As for the rest of the team, the folks who want to question why we'll be worse always say, "hey we've got the same personnel, basically ..." but the problem is that many of our defenders are playing positions they've never played before (see Kyle Williams, Maybin, Stroud and Kelsay, not to mention Schobel if he returns). At these new positions, they are essentially unproven rookies. Folks want to ignore that, but it's huge. Two to three of those four are unlikely to be on this team after this year or maybe next. And a lot of the platoon guys / new guys are rookies, and that means they'll make a lot of mistakes.

 

Throw in nobody who has proved that they can rush the passer ... If Schobel goes, that will be a major major loss. And if he returns, who knows how good he'll be as an OLB.

Incognito played in just the last 3 games of the season for the Bills, so it's not like he had much impact on the team. And it's no surprise Bell was so bad, considering how weak and raw he was coming out of college, that he didn't play his rookie year, didn't get starting reps all off- and pre-season, much less start a pre-season game, and missed 2 weeks of camp/pre-season games. But I'm not factoring him into the LT situation. IMHO it's Meredith's to lose.

 

As for the defense, guys like Maybin and Schobel (who looks like he's coming back) are better-suited for 3-4 OLB given their sizes. The biggest question will be coverage, but Maybin did a lot of that in college. Kelsay, I don't know. Stroud moving to DE shouldn't be a problem and he's lost weight, to help him better play the position. Many of the other front-7 guys have played in a 3-4 before. The key, as has been stated repeatedly, is Williams at NT and/or the development of Troup (who better sign before camps starts!).

2009: Eugene Monroe, Andre Smith (after he got healthy, he played very solidly), Jason Smith, though his season ended early, and best of all of them, Sebastian Vollmer.

 

2008: Jake Long, Ryan Clady, Sam Baker.

 

Didn't have to dig very far for them.

 

That's seven guys, almost a quarter of all the starting LTs in the league.

I asked for the last 2 drafts, meaning 2009 and 2010. The Bills still had Peters in 2008.

 

And Monroe and the Smiths haven't proven themselves. Profootballfocus didn't rate them too highly. And Vollmer received a TON of help from his TE's and RB's.

[bills in va]

WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS? ARE YOU SURE? OMGNO!

RUN, EVERYBODY RUN! RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!

OH DEAR, OH DEAR!

Do you have any actual thoughts in your head? This is a discussion board to DISCUSS issues. So if you cannot formulate an intelligent response save it, because your just showing your ignorance and it wasn't that funny.

[bills in va]

Because he said we couldn't address all of our needs in one offseason. If the Bills took an OT in round 2 for example, you'd be here bitching that we didn't address the NT position.

Yeah but the Redskins got Jamal Charles, McNeil is available in San Dieago, Flozell is available. There were moves to be made outside the draft to improve this team. If Schoebel retires we have 8+mil to spend on a tackle to help THIS YEAR.

We were just picked to go 2-14 by PFT and the best I've seen is 5-11. If Nix shores up the tackle spot we have a decent line this year, maybe a good one. If 1 starting tackle goes down we will be worse off than last year and I didn't think that wa possible.

[bills in va]

Nix doesn't really care about this year. The Bills are rebuilding. They are aiming at being good in 2012 or so. If Wang isn't good enough by then, we'll get a decent LT somewhere. Or try.

Sorry but after 35 years of fandom I am tired of hearing about NEXT YEAR. The Fins went from 1-15 to the playoffs, it can be done now, not in 2012!

[Bill from NYC]

The one thing that really bothered me on draft day was the way the Bills ran up to the podium and picked Spiller. They had ten fing minutes to see if anyone could have offered them a trade. They didn't even consider it. I believe that was a huge error. There was no reason to rush the pick. I know your going to say that was their guy and they grabbed him. Still, I think maybe a better offer may have been there if they waited...

 

How true. They were completely unwilling to examine any possibility of trading down and picking up an extra 2nd round pick, or perhaps more. Instead, they flew up to the podium and drafted a player at a position in which they already had depth.

I don't know any Bills fan who thinks that this team has adequate blocking, nor have I even seen a media report praising our line, yet they drafted a player at #9 whose success certainly hinges upon good line play. It makes one wonder why Spiller was selected, and imo the answer is obvious but again, this is merely my opinion.

[tennesseeboy]

2009 Michael Oher (starting LEFT tackle for Ravens)

[tennesseeboy]

Eben Britten (starting right tackle for Jacksonville)

2010 Baluga or Anthony Davis were available and either would have helped us more than Spiller is going to.

 

Not to mention various experienced tackles who were available in free agency or possible trades, the possibility of trading up to get a quality left tackle.

 

There is a problem. It hasn't been fixed.

[Beebe's Kid]

This is some ground-breaking **** here!! Good stuff!!

 

Do you think QB is settled?

[KOKBILLS]

Except he is a RT. But no biggie.

 

PTR

 

The Ravens are moving him to LT permanently (he Started 5 Games at LT in 2009), he played LT in the SEC, and even if he was a RT he would still be the best LT on the Bills Roster...

 

So I guess I'm not seeing your point here...

[KOKBILLS]

How true. They were completely unwilling to examine any possibility of trading down and picking up an extra 2nd round pick, or perhaps more. Instead, they flew up to the podium and drafted a player at a position in which they already had depth.

I don't know any Bills fan who thinks that this team has adequate blocking, nor have I even seen a media report praising our line, yet they drafted a player at #9 whose success certainly hinges upon good line play. It makes one wonder why Spiller was selected, and imo the answer is obvious but again, this is merely my opinion.

 

While I'm a HUGE CJ Spiller Fan (and I'll be rooting for the Kid to be the next great thing) I still think the Pick was a mistake for The Bills...If down the Road Spiller is our Reggie Bush and we're winning a SB I may be able to say I'm wrong about it...But I just think with the needs this Team had going into the Draft they could have turned that Pick into a heck of a lot more than an All-Purpose Back...Don't get me wrong, Spiller is going to be dynamic at times...But this is a team in re-building mode and they used a Top 10 Pick on a luxury item...

[tennesseeboy]

Maybe I'm missing something. I would think the trick to building a playoff team is to start by addressing your areas of greatest need. I don't see any three year "window" where everyone stays put and you have the luxury of drafting and sitting on your hands for a year. I think you have to say "what will it take to make the playoffs in the third year?" The first part is to keep the coaching staff and develop a winning attitude. You do that by winning in the first two years. Not five wins...not seven wins...but nine wins...You give the playoffs a run in year two and you make it in year three.

 

You start in the trenches. Is your front seven on d going to make a difference? I guess the 3-4 move is Nix/Gailey's move in that direction. Puzzling but I give them some credit for at least moving in the direction of addressing the defensive weaknesses. (I find it strange in light of the fact that at least part of our defensive problems last year were a lot of injuries and perhaps not the 4-3 defense.)

 

On offense its the offensive line. There were opportunities that have not been taken advantage of. trading up or down was a possibility. Free agency was a possibility. Trading was a possibility. Didn't get done. Unless two of the existing round of suspects step up to the plate the offense will be flat again.

[tennesseeboy]

Maybe I'm missing something. I would think the trick to building a playoff team is to start by addressing your areas of greatest need. I don't see any three year "window" where everyone stays put and you have the luxury of drafting and sitting on your hands for a year or two. I think you have to say "what will it take to make the playoffs in the third year?" The first part is to keep the coaching staff and develop a winning attitude. You do that by winning in the first two years. Not five wins...not seven wins...but nine wins...You give the playoffs a run in year two and you make it in year three.

 

You start in the trenches. Is your front seven on d going to make a difference? I guess the 3-4 move is Nix/Gailey's move in that direction. Puzzling but I give them some credit for at least moving in the direction of addressing the defensive weaknesses. (I find it strange in light of the fact that at least part of our defensive problems last year were a lot of injuries and perhaps not the 4-3 defense.)

 

On offense its the offensive line. There were opportunities that have not been taken advantage of. trading up or down was a possibility. Free agency was a possibility. Trading was a possibility. Didn't get done. Unless two of the existing round of suspects step up to the plate the offense will be flat again.

[Doc]

Maybe I'm missing something. I would think the trick to building a playoff team is to start by addressing your areas of greatest need. I don't see any three year "window" where everyone stays put and you have the luxury of drafting and sitting on your hands for a year. I think you have to say "what will it take to make the playoffs in the third year?" The first part is to keep the coaching staff and develop a winning attitude. You do that by winning in the first two years. Not five wins...not seven wins...but nine wins...You give the playoffs a run in year two and you make it in year three.

 

You start in the trenches. Is your front seven on d going to make a difference? I guess the 3-4 move is Nix/Gailey's move in that direction. Puzzling but I give them some credit for at least moving in the direction of addressing the defensive weaknesses. (I find it strange in light of the fact that at least part of our defensive problems last year were a lot of injuries and perhaps not the 4-3 defense.)

 

On offense its the offensive line. There were opportunities that have not been taken advantage of. trading up or down was a possibility. Free agency was a possibility. Trading was a possibility. Didn't get done. Unless two of the existing round of suspects step up to the plate the offense will be flat again.

The Tampa-2 favors smaller, quicker players. Who tend to get injured and/or worn-down easier.

 

As for the O-line, as I've said before, the Bills have their interior set, signed Cornell Green to play RT, and may just feel that Meredith will get the job done. We won't know until the season plays-out.

[Thurman#1]

Who out of the last 2 drafts has proven to be an "NFL-ready LT?"

 

 

 

I asked for the last 2 drafts, meaning 2009 and 2010.

And Monroe and the Smiths haven't proven themselves. Profootballfocus didn't rate them too highly. And Vollmer received a TON of help from his TE's and RB's.

 

 

 

Wait a minute, you're asking how many LTs have proven themselves, and you're asking about the 2010 draft? Um, nobody has proven themselves from this draft. Not one of them has seen a training camp yet. If that's the question you were asking, how many guys from the 2010 draft have proven themselves, then it was a question without a hint of relevance or argumentative value.

 

The last two drafts in which it is possible to have proven anything were 2008 and 2009, and as I said 7 guys from those two drafts have proven themselves.

 

As for Monroe and the Smiths, you didn't ask for LTs who had proven themselves as above average or elite. You asked about guys who had proven themselves as "NFL ready." If you prove yourself as a starter, you have by definition proved yourself NFL-ready. Monroe and the Smiths have both easily done that. And Vollmer is elite.

 

Jason Smith was ranked 31st out of 77, which is absolutely starter material. Andre Smith had to deal with the injury and I would understand if you wanted to say he hadn't proven enough. But I'd disagree. Positive scores in 5 out of 7 games and those two negative scores were both negatives, but not below zero by much.

 

As for Monroe, I would disagree with you about what profootballfocus says about him. Check out this:

 

http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?...p;playerid=4931

 

Pretty clear that he had an absolutely disastrous first two weeks and after that looked quite solid. His cumulative score for the season was a MINUS 9.8, which is really pretty bad. However, in his first two weeks, his score totalled MINUS 12.6. Which means that for the rest of the year, he went PLUS 2.8, which is pretty good for anybody and damn good for a rookie.

 

Vollmer was ranked extremely high by profootballfocus, as you probably know, 5th out of 77. The guy is terrific.

[purple haze]

Point well taken. The Bills had two drafts to add a legit NFL-ready LT and chose not to. It's going to bite them in the ass.

 

Or not bite them in the ass. Last year is over. This is a new year. Let it play out.

[purple haze]

On offense its the offensive line. There were opportunities that have not been taken advantage of. trading up or down was a possibility. Free agency was a possibility. Trading was a possibility. Didn't get done. Unless two of the existing round of suspects step up to the plate the offense will be flat again.

 

How do you know they could trade up or trade down? There's a strong possibility that you did not see it happen because it was not possible at the time. I don't know why you don't believe Buddy Nix after all this time. He has done everything he said he would do and been a straight shooter. The man said Bell has athleticism and the organization believes he can play. So we shall see if that's true; he is very athletic. He moves very well. He needed to get stronger. He needed a lot more experience. Obviously Gailey and Nix feel like he has all the necessary tools to get the job done. If he's not getting it done during camp they can always try to make a trade before the season starts.

[Thurman#1]

Incognito played in just the last 3 games of the season for the Bills, so it's not like he had much impact on the team

 

 

Incognito was the second-best lineman on the team last year. Only Butler was better. Over the season, no, he didn't have a major impact. While he was here, though, he was a major force. And we lost him. Not that was such a horrible decision, as we have to develop Wood and Levitre, but it definitely figures in.

 

 

And it's no surprise Bell was so bad, considering how weak and raw he was coming out of college, that he didn't play his rookie year, didn't get starting reps all off- and pre-season, much less start a pre-season game, and missed 2 weeks of camp/pre-season games. But I'm not factoring him into the LT situation. IMHO it's Meredith's to lose.

 

 

So, it's OK when backups come in and play like crap? Not in my book. You're right, it wasn't a surprise at all. The surprise would be if he's much better this year. You may be right about Meredith winning the LT spot, but if it happens, it's about like breaking up with Kathy Bates from the movie "Misery" and starting to date Squeaky Fromme. It may be a step up, but is it anything to make you feel happy about?

 

 

As for the defense, guys like Maybin and Schobel (who looks like he's coming back) are better-suited for 3-4 OLB given their sizes. The biggest question will be coverage, but Maybin did a lot of that in college.

 

 

Maybin didn't do a lot of it in college, he did a tiny bit of it. And the whole "he'll be fine because he looks like a 3 - 4 LB" thing is just on the surface of it wrong. "He looks the part" is the major argument for Bell, and how has that turned out? You know as well as I that looking the part is about 20% of the battle. The question is whether they can play it, and neither guy has proven he can.

 

 

As for the defense, guys like Maybin and Schobel (who looks like he's coming back) are better-suited for 3-4 OLB given their sizes. The biggest question will be coverage, but Maybin did a lot of that in college. Kelsay, I don't know. Stroud moving to DE shouldn't be a problem and he's lost weight, to help him better play the position. Many of the other front-7 guys have played in a 3-4 before. The key, as has been stated repeatedly, is Williams at NT and/or the development of Troup (who better sign before camps starts!).

 

 

Who are all the guys who have played in a 3 - 4? Edwards and Davis, correct? How is that "many"? Torbor is either going to be playing behind Poz or behind Davis, or Davis will be playing behind Torbor. In any case, two guys on the field will have had 3 - 4 experience, and none of them have experience with any of the guys around them. And this is supposed to make everything OK?

 

You say you have "the key," but first of all, it's one key of many. ROLB is just as important in a 3 - 4 scheme as NT. And second, rookie NTs have a history of not being very good and most of the few exceptions are high first-rounders. As for Williams, he is a heckuva DT, but is being asked to do totally different things as an NT. He's a penetrator and will be asked to be a blocker-absorber. It's two different skills. So if that is indeed the key, then things don't look good for this year.

 

Our front seven will be Edwards and the solid but unspectacular Davis and then a bunch of guys at new positions and rookies. Without spin, that's what it will look like. None of this proves anything (nothing like this can be proved), but while in the long run we will be moving in new guys and developing the ones who prove they can switch and giving the rookies experience so that in a few years we'll have a good group, in the short run things look pretty bad.