Cycling fans

[bartshan-83]

Why is a lead of 39 seconds (such as Contador held) considered insurmountable? It is an etiquette thing? As in, do all the riders treat the last stage as a victory lap and really consider the time trial to be the end?

 

Is it because it's just impossible to make up that kind of time on a short stage? I read that if Schleck had made a charge, Astana would have blocked him. What does that mean? The other riders on the team would have just tried to stay in front of him and not let him pass?

 

I've never understood this...

[stuckincincy]

Why is a lead of 39 seconds (such as Contador held) considered insurmountable? It is an etiquette thing? As in, do all the riders treat the last stage as a victory lap and really consider the time trial to be the end?

 

Is it because it's just impossible to make up that kind of time on a short stage? I read that if Schleck had made a charge, Astana would have blocked him. What does that mean? The other riders on the team would have just tried to stay in front of him and not let him pass?

 

I've never understood this...

 

It's like auto racing - teams, communications, blocking, hitting, etc. The almighty buck...

 

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/07/16/1...sts-aussie.html

[KD in CA]

Why is a lead of 39 seconds (such as Contador held) considered insurmountable?

 

I heard a report that he had "all but wrapped up" the Tour four days ago with the same lead.

 

I've always thought the 'stages' were kind of silly. I guess it's not practical for spectators, but I'd like to see the leader start off alone and each guy waits to start based on his time behind. That way there is no 'pack' and no protecting the leader. He's on his own, as he should be.

[BuffaloBud]

Let me use a motor racing analogy. If both cars are relatively equal it is very difficult to make up time / distance on the other car. But, if one is a high end sports car (you fill in the make/model) and the other is a Smart car, making up is fairly easy. Schleck and Contador are the former example.

 

The last stage is essentially a procession with a couple of sprint points and the stage winner at stake. The overall GC (general classification) goes un-contested. That being said, one of the Tour's back in the 80's, the last stage was a time trial. Everything was still up for grabs. Greg LeMond was about 20 seconds behind Laurent Fignon. LeMond, using aero technology that is now standard issue, made up the 20 seconds plus 8 or 9 additional seconds to win.

 

In the final stage like yesterday, teams would never challenge the leader like that. Sport etiquette.

 

Does that help answer your question?

[KD in CA]

Let me use a motor racing analogy. If both cars are relatively equal it is very difficult to make up time / distance on the other car. But, if one is a high end sports car (you fill in the make/model) and the other is a Smart car, making up is fairly easy. Schleck and Contador are the former example.

 

The last stage is essentially a procession with a couple of sprint points and the stage winner at stake. The overall GC (general classification) goes un-contested. That being said, one of the Tour's back in the 80's, the last stage was a time trial. Everything was still up for grabs. Greg LeMond was about 20 seconds behind Laurent Fignon. LeMond, using aero technology that is now standard issue, made up the 20 seconds plus 8 or 9 additional seconds to win.

 

In the final stage like yesterday, teams would never challenge the leader like that. Sport etiquette.

 

Does that help answer your question?

 

 

Given that, I would submit that cycling, while certainly very physically demanding, is not a sport. Sports are contested events, not parades.

[John Adams]

Why is a lead of 39 seconds (such as Contador held) considered insurmountable? It is an etiquette thing? As in, do all the riders treat the last stage as a victory lap and really consider the time trial to be the end?

 

Is it because it's just impossible to make up that kind of time on a short stage? I read that if Schleck had made a charge, Astana would have blocked him. What does that mean? The other riders on the team would have just tried to stay in front of him and not let him pass?

 

I've never understood this...

 

BuffaloBud commented on the etiquette and he's right. It's just an understood thing that on the final day, it's over except for a few of the sprinters who can race around to get the stage win. There's no rule about it except that it's always been the rule. You don't keep fighting on the last day.

 

And yes, 39 seconds would be a ton of time to make up between two evenly matched people on the last flat day. The only time you see people make up that much time when it matters is on big hill days when someone just bonks (like Armstrong did this year).

 

If his team had tried to pull away, the Astana team would have gone along with him (including Contador) and Schleck never would have been able to do it.

 

Finally, it's amazing that after 2000 miles, it always comes down to just seconds between first and second place. Some of that is strategic though. Once the leader has the lead over the close competitor,he doesn't waste a lot of energy trying to grow the lead. He just conserves enough to keep his lead and attack if he needs to. Contador could have won by more perhaps but he'd have risked using up energy and being tired the following day. That's why the leader usually positions himself safely with one or two teammates in the mountain stages and stays with the group of people trying to catch him.

[John Adams]

 

Given that, I would submit that cycling, while certainly very physically demanding, is not a sport. Sports are contested events, not parades.

 

You mean like when basketball and football pull the starters to a standing ovation and the second and third string go in and just hand the ball off?

 

It's the same thing. Just a different way of doing it. The competition is over the day before the last day.

[MattyT]

So if the dude who is leading completely bites it or comes up with an injury that does not allow him to finish then he still wins anyway? I would have to assume this is true since the remaining riders apparently aren't allowed to compete.

[John Adams]

So if the dude who is leading completely bites it or comes up with an injury that does not allow him to finish then he still wins anyway? I would have to assume this is true since the remaining riders apparently aren't allowed to compete.

 

I guess if he can't ride on the last day, he wouldn't win but it's never happened.

[BuffaloBud]

 

Given that, I would submit that cycling, while certainly very physically demanding, is not a sport. Sports are contested events, not parades.

 

The Tour has 20 "contested events" over 22 days ranging from time trials, flat, and mountain profiles. The average distance for each "contested event" is 113 miles. The end result is the cumulation of those 20 "contested events". If Schleck or his team tried to challenge the leader, the peloton would have chased them down and spit them out like cherry pits.

[BuffaloBud]

So if the dude who is leading completely bites it or comes up with an injury that does not allow him to finish then he still wins anyway? I would have to assume this is true since the remaining riders apparently aren't allowed to compete.

 

 

Cycling rules say that if anyone crashes within the last 3km of the end that person would get the same finish time as the peloton, or main group.

[Chef Jim]

Remember folks, we're talking about the Tour De France so you can understand why the goal is to let someone else win.

[bartshan-83]

Let me use a motor racing analogy. If both cars are relatively equal it is very difficult to make up time / distance on the other car. But, if one is a high end sports car (you fill in the make/model) and the other is a Smart car, making up is fairly easy. Schleck and Contador are the former example.

 

The last stage is essentially a procession with a couple of sprint points and the stage winner at stake. The overall GC (general classification) goes un-contested. That being said, one of the Tour's back in the 80's, the last stage was a time trial. Everything was still up for grabs. Greg LeMond was about 20 seconds behind Laurent Fignon. LeMond, using aero technology that is now standard issue, made up the 20 seconds plus 8 or 9 additional seconds to win.

 

In the final stage like yesterday, teams would never challenge the leader like that. Sport etiquette.

 

Does that help answer your question?

Thanks BB and JA...very helpful.

 

That is more or less what I thought was the case, I just don't understand the ins and outs of cycling etiquette and physics.

 

Clarify further for me though...is it more about and etiquette or more about difficulty? Could Schleck have taken down Contador if he decided to ignore the etiquette and go for it? Was it humanly possible?

 

And how does the team play such a huge role in "protecting" its leader? For example:

If his team had tried to pull away, the Astana team would have gone along with him (including Contador) and Schleck never would have been able to do it.

What does this mean? How would Astana be able to thwart Schleck? Is it simply a matter of getting in his way or it more about the peloton and being able to move more efficiently and quickly in a group?

 

If Schleck or his team tried to challenge the leader, the peloton would have chased them down and spit them out like cherry pits.

How does that work? Did I answer my own question above? Can the peloton easily chase down any lone rider who is out in front by himself?

 

And finally, despite the "last stage etiquette" is there a certain point where it is fair game? What if the lead is 3 seconds...or 1 second? Will they duke it out then or still call it a day?

[ExiledInIllinois]

In the final stage like yesterday, teams would never challenge the leader like that. Sport etiquette.

 

I haven't followed it or found out who won... But don't give me sport etiquette! From little I heard... Was there not a guy who had a flat tire and the other guy passed him (leaders)?... Don't tell me the guy that passed him won the whole damn thing! ?? From what I heard, usually in the Tour and other races... Don't they wait for the person with the mishap? Can someone fill me in on the details?... Did the bum tire tire cause that cyclist to lose? Supposedly, the guy who kept going said: "That he didn't see the problem." Yep... Like really!

[John Adams]

What does this mean? How would Astana be able to thwart Schleck? Is it simply a matter of getting in his way or it more about the peloton and being able to move more efficiently and quickly in a group?

 

How does that work? Did I answer my own question above? Can the peloton easily chase down any lone rider who is out in front by himself?

 

And finally, despite the "last stage etiquette" is there a certain point where it is fair game? What if the lead is 3 seconds...or 1 second? Will they duke it out then or still call it a day?

 

Shleck could have made a break for it (presumably with his team) if he'd wanted to. The point is that the Astana team (including Contador) would have gone with him and there's no way Schleck could make up 43 seconds on that last day unless he was blood-doped up. The Astana team would form a protective bubble around Contador, right behind all of Schleck's Saxo team and while the Saxo team did all the work, the Astana team would just follow along...with Contador doing the least amount of work.

 

A lone rider or small group of riders almost never breaks off from the peleton and does any damage to the overall tour standings except in the mountains. Using that much energy only pays off for a day...never the next one. In the mountains, it can be a little different because the reduced speed in the moutnains gives less advantage.

[KD in CA]

You mean like when basketball and football pull the starters to a standing ovation and the second and third string go in and just hand the ball off?

Yes, exactly, because at that point the other team is obligated to no longer try to win the game. Maybe that can be the Bills strategy this year -- get a lead in the first quarter and then put the 3d stringers in and hope the other teams have enough football etiquette to not come back.

 

A more appropriate analogy would be to tell marathon runners that after 25 1/2 miles, the race is unofficially over because they've raced long enough and the last 1/2 mile is just for show.

 

 

The Tour has 20 "contested events" over 22 days ranging from time trials, flat, and mountain profiles. The average distance for each "contested event" is 113 miles. The end result is the cumulation of those 20 "contested events". If Schleck or his team tried to challenge the leader, the peloton would have chased them down and spit them out like cherry pits.

 

Cycling rules say that if anyone crashes within the last 3km of the end that person would get the same finish time as the peloton, or main group.

 

Thanks BB; I've always been under the impression that it was a single 'race' (guy who bikes around France and crosses the finish line first), rather than a series of events with a declared winner.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Was Schleck the one that had the lead taken away from in an earlier stage because of a bad tire... Was Contador the one that: "Didn't see him."

 

??

[BuffaloBud]

OK here goes -

 

1 - A large group is acutally more energy efficient than one rider alone. If Schleck had tried to recover the 39 seconds he would have expended a lot more energy by himself, or with his team (9 riders), than against the rest of the teams (180+ riders).

 

2 - The "team" works together to get its best person to the top. In the case of riding in the peloton, it helps to keep the leader from getting pushed around or setting pace against the other teams.

 

3 - Hard to say if the differential was 1 second what would happen. Never seen it on the last stage.

 

4 - Baseball has an etiquette - Do not throw at the batters head when retailating. In this years TdF case, it was not a flat that was the critical event. Schleck's chain came off the front gearset when making a change on a very steep incline when trying to "attack" Contador. At the same time he was making his gear change he hit a bump in the road and the chain became lodged between the small chainring and the crank hub. While all this is happening, Contador is responding to the attack and pulls away. Team car is not in sight of all this and can't tell him to back off via radio communication. Perfect storm of events.

[ExiledInIllinois]

OK here goes -

 

1 - A large group is acutally more energy efficient than one rider alone. If Schleck had tried to recover the 39 seconds he would have expended a lot more energy by himself, or with his team (9 riders), than against the rest of the teams (180+ riders).

 

2 - The "team" works together to get its best person to the top. In the case of riding in the peloton, it helps to keep the leader from getting pushed around or setting pace against the other teams.

 

3 - Hard to say if the differential was 1 second what would happen. Never seen it on the last stage.

 

4 - Baseball has an etiquette - Do not throw at the batters head when retailating. In this years TdF case, it was not a flat that was the critical event. Schleck's chain came off the front gearset when making a change on a very steep incline when trying to "attack" Contador. At the same time he was making his gear change he hit a bump in the road and the chain became lodged between the small chainring and the crank hub. While all this is happening, Contador is responding to the attack and pulls away. Team car is not in sight of all this and can't tell him to back off via radio communication. Perfect storm of events.

 

Thanks! All I know of cycling is what I have seen in: Breaking Away.

[Chef Jim]

OK here goes -

 

1 - A large group is acutally more energy efficient than one rider alone. If Schleck had tried to recover the 39 seconds he would have expended a lot more energy by himself, or with his team (9 riders), than against the rest of the teams (180+ riders).

 

2 - The "team" works together to get its best person to the top. In the case of riding in the peloton, it helps to keep the leader from getting pushed around or setting pace against the other teams.

 

3 - Hard to say if the differential was 1 second what would happen. Never seen it on the last stage.

 

4 - Baseball has an etiquette - Do not throw at the batters head when retailating. In this years TdF case, it was not a flat that was the critical event. Schleck's chain came off the front gearset when making a change on a very steep incline when trying to "attack" Contador. At the same time he was making his gear change he hit a bump in the road and the chain became lodged between the small chainring and the crank hub. While all this is happening, Contador is responding to the attack and pulls away. Team car is not in sight of all this and can't tell him to back off via radio communication. Perfect storm of events.

 

Wait let me get this straight. Had Contador known that Schleck had lost his chain he was supposed to stop and wait for him?