FLFan Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 If they'd said or indicated they didn't like him, I would have minded this all much less. They haven't. The only thing they did that indicated they didn't like him is not drafting him, and again, there are so many factors complicating those decisions, you can't legitimately read not drafting a guy as not liking him. What they did say is that they thought the three on the team would be fine, and that they deserved a chance. I couldn't disagree more. This could be one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. Since when does any team come out and say they do not like this player or that player? It is sort of obvious that if they like his potential as a QB they would have drafted him. Clausen simply carries too much risk to draft that high when you have so many other needs to fill. It does not seem to be only the Bills who thought so. Nix was quite up front about his desire to improve the QB position if he could. What they said is that there was no option available to them that was better right now. Despite the sentiment on this board for Jason Campbell, Troy Smith, and every project QB onm this year's list. They did try to get McNabb - a clear upgrade. Any other options, I do not believe are clearly better than filling other holes.
Fingon Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 You obviously don't know what a prediction is do you? I said that I predict he will, not he will be and everyone is wrong. You really are an idiot aren't you? Go to the book store, pick up "English for Dummies" read it and come back in a month, you will feel fine. Prediction: to declare or indicate in advance; especially : foretell on the basis of observation, experience, or scientific reason http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/predicting Sounds like you don't know what a prediction is. You are declaring that he will be a pro bowl QB. Maybe you try reading a !@#$ing dictionary? By the way, got any stock tips? You'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than my broker.
FLFan Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 If Clausen is still the third stringer going into next season, it will be a major signal that he's not likely to make it. But even if I loved Clausen, if I were a coach, THIS YEAR I would be very likely to put him third if I had a decent second-year man. Rookie QBs make huge mistakes. If I expected my team to suck, I'd give Clausen as much time as I could. But the Jags think they have a playoff shot this year. Third-stringer is where you would expect Clausen to be, even if you and the team loved him, particularly so early in the season. Clausen is with the Carolina Panthers.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Clausen is with the Carolina Panthers. Sorry, man, spacing out. Doesn't change my point, though. They think they're going to win this year. Putting your rookie third just makes sense. I'd do it, and I think Clausen is going to be a franchise QB some day.
Fingon Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 My money is on you will be. Ngata is primarily a DE in the 3-4, although he does shift to NT on some passing downs. He is NOT a DE, I have no idea where you got that idea. The man is 340 pounds, and Baltimore's NT. Kelly Gregg is the Ravens 3rd down NT.
Fingon Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 He said he would take an above average QB over a great NT. Jason Campbell is NOT an above average QB. Looks at the stats, and you will see that Campbell is an above average QB. Above average means anything better than the 16th rated QB. 64.5% completion 3600 yards 20 TDs 15 INTs
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 He is NOT a DE, I have no idea where you got that idea. The man is 340 pounds, and Baltimore's NT. Kelly Gregg is the Ravens 3rd down NT. Here, maybe? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NgatHa20.htm Or here? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team...2009_roster.htm After drafting Cody, it looks like a 100% sure thing this year.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Looks at the stats, and you will see that Campbell is an above average QB. Above average means anything better than the 16th rated QB. 64.5% completion 3600 yards 20 TDs 15 INTs So you're saying that the 15th rated QB is above-average? I'd call that average, at best. I hear you, 15th is better than 16.5, which is average in the NFL, but let's face it, that definition of above average would mean there was only two average QBs in the NFL, #16 and #17. And that would be ridiculous. There's a fairly big glut of average guys in the middle. Who the above average guys are is a matter of debate, but I don't think you would find any but a very very few putting Campbell above average. Get somewhere around 10 - 12 and you're probably above average. That's if I admit that he's #15, and I wouldn't, though I'd say he's damn close. 15 INTs is tied for 9th most in the league.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 This could be one of the dumbest arguments I have ever heard. Since when does any team come out and say they do not like this player or that player? It is sort of obvious that if they like his potential as a QB they would have drafted him. Again (for the third time in this thread, I believe), no, that's just not true. If not drafting a guy meant you didn't like him, that would have meant that the Bills also hated Bradford, Ndamakong Suh, Brandon Graham, Mike Iupati, Marukice Pouncey, Jermaine Greshan, Demaryius Thomas, Dez Bryant, and the list goes on and on, and consists of the 277 guys the Bills didn't draft. I really doubt they didn't like them all, and that all the guys the Bills liked just happened to fall into their laps. People like to pretend that the draft is that simple when it suits their beliefs in whatever argument they're in. The facts are that the draft is an unbelievably complicated system. No way to know if we felt that we trusted the QBs we have on our roster and didn't trust Kyle Williams, for instance.
PS 56 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 The whole league passed on him, some a few times so some word was out that there was a hangup with him of some kind. I guess all the teams are crazy. Very good point. Clearly the teams didn't see what all the press and PR folks allegedly did.
Fingon Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Here, maybe? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NgatHa20.htm Or here? http://www.pro-football-reference.com/team...2009_roster.htm After drafting Cody, it looks like a 100% sure thing this year. Or, you know, you could look at Baltimore's own website? http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Play...loti_Ngata.aspx Or you could still say he is a 350 lb DE.
Rob's House Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Looks at the stats, and you will see that Campbell is an above average QB. Above average means anything better than the 16th rated QB. 64.5% completion 3600 yards 20 TDs 15 INTs Your arguments are usually sound but I'm afraid you're off on this one. Jason Campbell has an above average arm and above average stats, but is an average to below average player. There's a reason the Redskins were quick to jettison a young QB with above average stats. They know it's a mirage. He can't handle pressure, and consistently folds in clutch situations.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Or, you know, you could look at Baltimore's own website? http://www.baltimoreravens.com/People/Play...loti_Ngata.aspx Or you could still say he is a 350 lb DE. Thing is, I'm less concerned with where he's listed than where he actually plays, which is shown by the pro-football-reference links. And yes, I could say he is a 350 pound DE. Because he is. Just like Raji in Green Bay, although Raji is only 340. Huge DEs are no disadvantage in the 3 - 4. And again, now that they've drafted Terrence Cody, are they going to have Cody and Ngata both sitting on the bench while Gregg is in there? Anyway, this is a Clausen thread, I won't be saying anything more about this here. If you feel a terrible need to discuss this with me, start a thread on it.
The Dean Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 If they'd said or indicated they didn't like him, I would have minded this all much less. They haven't. The only thing they did that indicated they didn't like him is not drafting him, and again, there are so many factors complicating those decisions, you can't legitimately read not drafting a guy as not liking him. What they did say is that they thought the three on the team would be fine, and that they deserved a chance. I couldn't disagree more. Let's try this again. Classy NFL execs rarely openly admit they don't like a particular player. By passing on Clausen twice, when QB is a position of need demonstrates they didn't like him enough to draft him in either position, IMO. They certainly didn't like him as much as they liked Troup or Spiller. Furthermore, if I'm not mistaken, Chan said something to the effect that he believed the QBs available when the Bills picked weren't significantly better than those currently on the Bills roster (or something to that effect). Would you use a 2nd round pick to take a QB you thought was no better than Trent, Fitz or Brohm? As has already been said (and said better), if you really think a QB is going to be your guy you take him in the first round. If you don't think he's likely to be the guy you don't waste a 2nd round pick on him. By their actions and statements I think it's clear the Bills thought Clausen would simply be another QB "in the mix" and didn't believe he was likely to be better than what they already have. I call that "not liking him", you can call it something else, if you like. Add to the mix the possibility that he let it be known he didn't want to play in Buffalo. Would you use a 2nd round pick to take a QB you don't really believe in and who says/acts-like he doesn't want to play for your team? I think you can fault Nix/Chan for mis-judging Clausen's talent, if you really think the kid is the real deal. But I don't think you should fault him for not using a 2nd round pick on a QB he clearly wasn't "in love" with.
The Dean Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Your arguments are usually sound but I'm afraid you're off on this one. Jason Campbell has an above average arm and above average stats, but is an average to below average player. There's a reason the Redskins were quick to jettison a young QB with above average stats. They know it's a mirage. He can't handle pressure, and consistently folds in clutch situations. Campbell is not an above average NFL starter, but he is certainly an above average NFL QB.
Fingon Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 QBs that scouts think will be "Above average" starters, do not go in the 2nd round. That is especially true in very weak QB classes like 2009. If clubs believed that he had pro bowl years in him he would have gone a lot earlier.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Let's try this again. Classy NFL execs rarely openly admit they don't like a particular player. By passing on Clausen twice, when QB is a position of need demonstrates they didn't like him enough to draft him in either position, IMO. The minute you say IMO, you destroy my argument. a QB he clearly wasn't "in love" with. Not so much here. This is a guess, being stated as a fact.. Unless you feel that it is absolutely impossible to be "in love" with two players. Myself, I don't see anything near proof here, particularly as Chan has made it extremely obvious from way before the draft that he thought that the QBs we had had not proved they couldn't handle the job. Nobody's been able to find any links saying anything like this. I know, because I've asked. People have made the same claim several times, but nobody has been able to back it up. Chan did say something about the fact that our guys all had arms as strong as the guys in the draft, something like "our QBs can make all the throws those guys can," but that's about 10% of being a successful NFL QB.
The Dean Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Not so much here. This is a guess, being stated as a fact.. Unless you feel that it is absolutely impossible to be "in love" with two players. Myself, I don't see anything near proof here, particularly as Chan has made it extremely obvious from way before the draft that he thought that the QBs we had had not proved they couldn't handle the job. I think the chances that Buddy and Chan LOVED Clausen and thought he would likely be a terrific NFL QB and also passed on him twice are close to nil.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 I think the chances that Buddy and Chan LOVED Clausen and thought he would likely be a terrific NFL QB and also passed on him twice are close to nil. Fair enough. I disagree, and I've spelled out the reasons why. We'll see. If Clausen bombs, this will turn out to have been an exceptional pick, made even better by passing on Clausen. If Clausen becomes a franchise guy, it will have been a truly awful pick.
The Dean Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Fair enough. I disagree, and I've spelled out the reasons why.. You've spelled out the reasons why Buddy and Chan LOVED Clausen and believe he is likely to be a quality NFL starting QB? I must have missed that. If you have any indication or evidence that they really liked him and believe he was likely to be the guy, I wish you would share it. I think the fact that Chan has yet to name a starter, or even make much of a distinction between the three, shows he doesn't have a QB he truly believes is The Man. You think he was convinced Clausen would be The Man and passed on him anyway?
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