Green Lightning Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Are you simple minded? Let me try to say it again. Every football fan knows the importance of the LT position. So don't try to belittle me. The man made a comparsion between us and the Cowboys. He picked one position that the Cowboys appear to be weak in. The comparsion is so silly because the Cowboys by most everyone's account are a top notch football team. Our football team by most football fans is ----? To answer your question. The LT position is very important but a solid offensive team like the Cowboys are more likely to be successful and overcome their shortcomings than teams like the Bills. The comparsion was, is, and still is ridiculous. NOW DO YOU GET IT? What I get is you are all over the intellectual board and abusive when someone legitimately questions your ramblings. All the OP of the exchange pointed out was that the Cowboys has less of a proven answer at LT than we have. You went off like a bottle rocket with insults and crazy logic. If you can't be sane at least be civil.
Red Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 I'd feel confident in our chances if we traded for LT Marcus McNeil. (And signing Jeff Garcia as insurance would make me even happier )
Doc Posted July 22, 2010 Posted July 22, 2010 Mularky could have stayed and received full payment. He solely made the decision to ask for and get a buy out. He saw the chicken shiit way this organization was run and concluded it would be impossible for him to be successful. His judgment proved correct. You missed the point as you usually do. Greg Williams preferred to not accept the extension because he realized that he would have better opportunities for success and remuneration once he left the bills. It worked out for him. He currently has a SB ring. They were both chicken shiit coaching hires by TD. Mularkey in particular is another bad season in Atlanta from being demoted to TE coach (again), while Williams was the proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut (the Saints were 20th in points allowed and 25th in yards allowed last year), after being fired by the Redskins and Jaguars. Both are coordinators and neither is HC material. Sure you can find a top LT beyond the 2nd round. You can also find franchise QB's in the 6th round. Anything's possible, but some positions due to physical demands are found in the first round. Truth is, there aren't many quality starting NFL OLT's who were taken in the 3rd round and below. I show 9 as being taken in the 3rd round or later, with the best being former Bills LT Jason Peters. None of the other 8 are more than average: Doug Free, David Diehl, Jermon Bushrod, Donald Penn, Mario Henderson, Charlie Johnson, Max Starks, and whoever Buffalo plays. The other 23 NFL teams have a first or second invested in their LT. Go ahead and conflate the argument by saying most quality players are taken in the first round anyway, but it's apparent the Bills are trying to find a decent LT from the scrap heap. It rarely happens. BTW, Clady was widely recognized as a premier talent, regardless of conference he played in. So much so that he was taken in Buffalo's reserved draft position of 12th overall. While many good LT's are found in the 1st and 2nd, it does NOT mean you should write-off players taken in the later rounds. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm also trying to say that a lot of 1st rounders bust. Moreover the Bills have been addressing their LT spot. They drafted Williams, who proved to be a bust, and then Peters came along. Peters then pulled his stunt, the Bills traded him, and then admittedly they bungled their handling of LT position last year. If anything you can blame them for not drafting Oher last year, but Oher hasn't proven himself at LT yet and I'm interested to see how he does. Let's get the timeline right. Mularkey had already fired several assistants. He wasn't falling on his sword for them; they had already been dumped. Now, why would I choose to not believe what the man said himself versus your take? He said he realized that the organization was headed in the wrong direction, that it wasn't being put together in such a way that he could compete, and thus he decided to quit. Mike Mularkey said this himself. That trumps internet rumor and innuendo about his kid maybe getting a swirly at school so he had to tuck his tail between his legs and leave Buffalo. Why did he say that? It was obviously directed at Ralph and Marv who had a few weeks prior installed themselves as the President and "GM of Football". In 20/20 hindsight, Coach Mularkey called a spade a spade and was dead nuts right on target. Marv and Ralph weren't up to the task. That's just objectively obvious at this point. Again I've admitted that the Levy/Brandon era was a mistake. But as I said above, Mularkey isn't HC'ing material. Whether it was he or Jauron made little difference.
mpl6876 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 What I get is you are all over the intellectual board and abusive when someone legitimately questions your ramblings. All the OP of the exchange pointed out was that the Cowboys has less of a proven answer at LT than we have. You went off like a bottle rocket with insults and crazy logic. If you can't be sane at least be civil. Fair enough.
Orton's Arm Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 While many good LT's are found in the 1st and 2nd, it does NOT mean you should write-off players taken in the later rounds. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm also trying to say that a lot of 1st rounders bust. Moreover the Bills have been addressing their LT spot. They drafted Williams, who proved to be a bust, and then Peters came along. Peters then pulled his stunt, the Bills traded him, and then admittedly they bungled their handling of LT position last year. If anything you can blame them for not drafting Oher last year, but Oher hasn't proven himself at LT yet and I'm interested to see how he does. It's worth noting that of the top 10 LTs in the league today, nine were taken in the first or second round. Of those, six were taken within the first 15 picks of the draft. I agree that it would be a mistake to categorically write off guys taken after the second round, because a Jason Peters story occurs from time to time. But those are typically rare occasions. As a fan, I'm not going to feel particularly comfortable about the LT spot until we either a) see some good play from it, or b) see significant resources invested in a solution that visibly has a high probability of success. And by that I specifically do not mean, "Eye up Green Bay's practice squad or a list of players released by the Raiders to see which guys look the most promising." This is the first year of Nix's tenure; and he inherited a team with a ton of holes. It's far too soon to make any generalizations about whether he is or is not guilty of neglecting the offensive line. Conversely, it's clear that TD spent too little (in the way of draft picks) on the OL. TD inherited a team with no OL other than an aging Ruben Brown. To address that situation, he used one first round pick, and one second-round pick. The problems on the OL were exacerbated by the fact that the first round pick was a bust, and the second rounder went first contract and out. TD picked up right where John Butler left off. From 1993 (when Butler became general manager) through 2000 (his last year as GM), the Bills used only one first round pick on the OL--Ruben Brown at guard--and no picks in the second round. This, despite the poor state the line was in through most of that time, especially later in the '90s. This Bills team has a ton of holes on it--enough holes that we can't expect to fill all of them with first and second round draft picks. This team represents a great opportunity for later round draft picks and unheralded free agents to prove themselves. But unless three new solid starters emerge on the OL--at LT, C, and RT--I would hope that Nix would invest reasonably high draft picks to fix the problem. I'd like to see him definitively depart from the Butler/TD/Marv era; a time during which we devoted very few draft day resources to the OL despite the obvious need.
CarolinaBill Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 This Bills team has a ton of holes on it--enough holes that we can't expect to fill all of them with first and second round draft picks. This team represents a great opportunity for later round draft picks and unheralded free agents to prove themselves. But unless three new solid starters emerge on the OL--at LT, C, and RT--I would hope that Nix would invest reasonably high draft picks to fix the problem. I'd like to see him definitively depart from the Butler/TD/Marv era; a time during which we devoted very few draft day resources to the OL despite the obvious need. bell, meredith, wang, wood, calloway I have to think that calloway was taken with the idea that wood would be moved to the pivot at some point. Meredith is suited for the RT position, which I think he will get at some point this year, which leaves an improving and more experienced bell to man the LT with wang backing him up. Admittedly, bell is the biggest question mark IMO. but if he can do it, I think with the line up of bell/levitre/wood/calloway/meredith, we have the makings of a very good OL.
JohnC Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Okay. We're good. Temporary situation. The status quo will be re-established in the not too distant future. LOL
Green Lightning Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 bell, meredith, wang, wood, calloway I have to think that calloway was taken with the idea that wood would be moved to the pivot at some point. Meredith is suited for the RT position, which I think he will get at some point this year, which leaves an improving and more experienced bell to man the LT with wang backing him up. Admittedly, bell is the biggest question mark IMO. but if he can do it, I think with the line up of bell/levitre/wood/calloway/meredith, we have the makings of a very good OL. I believe your scenario of bell/levitre/wood/calloway/meredith, is what the FO is banking on. It's a gamble but one worth trying at this point. If these guys can't do the job he's got the next few drafts and cap room to make a move. If it works, Buddy hits the jackpot and can use the next few drafts on QB, LB, and other need positions to build a winner. A few things I'm learning from watching Nix is that he generally does what he says he's going to do and he is patient. He's not going to let media, national or local, move him off his path. I think your line up is Buddy would like to see. He would have Hangartner and Green as pretty solid back ups with Wang in training to push the two tackles.
ganesh Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 TD picked up right where John Butler left off. From 1993 (when Butler became general manager) through 2000 (his last year as GM), the Bills used only one first round pick on the OL--Ruben Brown at guard--and no picks in the second round. This, despite the poor state the line was in through most of that time, especially later in the '90s. In Butler's defense, we were always finishing in the 20-32 spots where the choice was mainly DBs and TEs. The blue chip OTs and Guards were always gone by the time the Bills picked. Also in the 90's it was shunned to take a Guard in the 1st roiund. Where the Bills missed the boat is the year they picked Mike Williams. They had the 4th overall pick and could have a blue chip prospect. To be honest, Mike Williams went through 3 OL coaches in his first 4 seasons and no QB to boot....
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Re: Jamon Meredith. There actually are reasons this kid fell in the draft to the 5th round and ended up on the practice squad of a team riddled with injuries on their OL. He is not one of those long armed, big butt, natural knee-benders. He didn't dominate in the SEC and took plays off. People aren't sure if he's really a LT because he's not quick. They aren't sure if he is a RT because of his lack of size and strength. They aren't sure he's a guard and can play at the wheel, either. He's not terribly nibble, aggressive, nor strong. He's more of a lanky, hip-bending, better than average athlete that has a lot of work to do before being a solid pro lineman. He's a more passive Brad Butler with maybe a dash more athleticism. Not that rounding out the OL like this is unusual for Buffalo. The Bills have been trying to roll with the Brad Butler types filling out the OL, which is half of any football offense, for a long time.
Orton's Arm Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 bell, meredith, wang, wood, calloway I have to think that calloway was taken with the idea that wood would be moved to the pivot at some point. Meredith is suited for the RT position, which I think he will get at some point this year, which leaves an improving and more experienced bell to man the LT with wang backing him up. Admittedly, bell is the biggest question mark IMO. but if he can do it, I think with the line up of bell/levitre/wood/calloway/meredith, we have the makings of a very good OL. Of the players you mentioned, I think the most likely to work out is moving Wood to center. I believe the next-most-likely is putting Calloway at guard--in part because it's easier to be a successful guard than a successful tackle. Meredith at RT is the second least-likely move to work out and, as you pointed out, Bell at LT is the biggest longshot. Maybe they could even plug Wang in there for a while to see how he fits. But even if only Wood and Calloway work out, that would still be one less hole on the OL going into the 2011 draft. And they may as well give the other younger players a shot, on the off chance of filling another OL hole.
Orton's Arm Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 In Butler's defense, we were always finishing in the 20-32 spots where the choice was mainly DBs and TEs. The blue chip OTs and Guards were always gone by the time the Bills picked. Also in the 90's it was shunned to take a Guard in the 1st roiund. Where the Bills missed the boat is the year they picked Mike Williams. They had the 4th overall pick and could have a blue chip prospect. To be honest, Mike Williams went through 3 OL coaches in his first 4 seasons and no QB to boot.... What bothered me about Butler's era wasn't just the lack of first round picks at OL (other than Ruben Brown). It was the fact that the Bills didn't use a single second round pick on an OL during his tenure. Surely there had to be someone on the OL worth taking in the second round while he was GM!! Normally that would be a good place to find a center, an OG, or even a RT.
BB2004 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 If the experiment fails, the offense is going to struggle...again. That's for sure. I think we need to prepare for this. Maybe next season we'll actually consider going out and trying to get the best left tackle available. Hopefully I am wrong but the past seasons have told us otherwise.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Re: Jamon Meredith. There actually are reasons this kid fell in the draft to the 5th round and ended up on the practice squad of a team riddled with injuries on their OL. He is not one of those long armed, big butt, natural knee-benders. He didn't dominate in the SEC and took plays off. People aren't sure if he's really a LT because he's not quick. They aren't sure if he is a RT because of his lack of size and strength. They aren't sure he's a guard and can play at the wheel, either. He's not terribly nibble, aggressive, nor strong. He's more of a lanky, hip-bending, better than average athlete that has a lot of work to do before being a solid pro lineman. He's a more passive Brad Butler with maybe a dash more athleticism. Not that rounding out the OL like this is unusual for Buffalo. The Bills have been trying to roll with the Brad Butler types filling out the OL, which is half of any football offense, for a long time. This is surprising his combine results looked so relatively good given all of these weaknesses. You would expect some sort of correlation.
Thurman#1 Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Getting back to the players themselves, Meredith was a top performer in just about everything at the combine, plus he had a good GPA implying some smarts. So if the guy measures up in every pre draft measurement prescribed by the NFL to evalute phsical ability,how can folks know better about his potnetial? Perhaps he just is a coaching project the packers weren't willing to invest in... The scouting reports I read knocked technique, which i presume is fixable? I'd say he is worth watching in camp, and doe shave the potnetial to be a solution. Remember peters was an UDFA nobody that could have been signed off of Buffalos practice squad too... Not all good NFL LT's come from frist round picks. In fact I challenge the forum to name 5 present day Top rate LT's that were first rounders. Jake Long D'Brick Clady Joe Thomas Jordan Gross
Mr. WEO Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 They were both chicken shiit coaching hires by TD. Mularkey in particular is another bad season in Atlanta from being demoted to TE coach (again), while Williams was the proverbial blind squirrel finding a nut Both are coordinators and neither is HC material. Mularkey isn't HC'ing material. Wow. It's 2010, but I guess it's a start.
BillsVet Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 Not that rounding out the OL like this is unusual for Buffalo. The Bills have been trying to roll with the Brad Butler types filling out the OL, which is half of any football offense, for a long time. Someone should write a book, "How Not to Build an Offensive Line: The Buffalo Bills 2001-2010." First, TD drafted a huge OT (EDIT: bust) and then tried to stock the OL with cheap UFA acquisitions. Then Marv spent huge sums on bad UFA's while hoping late round picks would work. Next, the team trades their best OL when his contract demands do not suit them and after the team issued large contracts to lesser talented players. Lastly, they entrust the most important positions C, RT, and LT, to cheap UFA's, former practice squad cast-offs, and another late round pick. Meanwhile, it appears this year their principal backup G is another 7th round pick. The others will be UDFA's and street free agents.
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 23, 2010 Posted July 23, 2010 This is surprising his combine results looked so relatively good given all of these weaknesses. You would expect some sort of correlation. See: Mike Mamula. The correlation between the combine numbers and actual ability to excel as a pro in the NFL isn't really all that. I'm not saying there isn't anything positive about the kid, but the people running around with the rags and polish for his bust in Canton are wearing some tight fitting blinkers.
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