The left tackle battle

[JohnC]

It's arrogance on the team's part to say they believe in guys like Meredith and Bell to play OT. All I see throughout this thread is "hoping" one of these guys steps up and takes the job. Well of course one of them stands to get it, but the operative question is whether they'll play decent football and not get their QB/RB killed. I doubt it.

 

I don't think it is arrogance in the belief that the players such as Meredith and Bell can adequately staff the most difficult position on the line so much as it is simply a miscalculation. When the Bills brought in Dockery and Walker and paid them at a high rate it turned out to be a miscalculation. When Langston Walker was designated as Peters's replacement at LT it was a gross miscalculation. Not drafting Ohrer after trading Peters was a miscalculation.

 

Sometimes organizations make mistakes because they become arrogant after a long stretch of success. That scenario certainly doesn't apply to the Bills. With respect to the Bills ineptitude is simply ineptitude. There is no need to reach for an exotic reason for why the Bills have had such a mediocre stretch.

 

Every now and then teams find a diamond in the proverbial rough. The Bills found Jason Peters as a UDFA, but the chances they find his successor in that manner, late round pick or from another team's PS is absurd. Still, fans will keep believing it can happen until it's obvious neither play can do the job. In the interim, people get bashed for saying it's unlikely Bell, Meredith, or Wang will ever be average NFL starters at OT.

 

I thought last season proved you don't enter the year hoping guys can play all over the field. That's a recipe for disaster, as last year's OL was.

 

I agree with you that not addressing the LT position in a meaningful way this offseason is a major gamble. Not only are Bell and Meredith risky gambles as starting LT players but the lack of depth leaves this team very vulnerable if an injury should occur at that position.

[Roc Bronson]

Wow sometimes I can't believe some of the people on here are true fans! I can understand being sick of losing but jesus having not an ounce of hope you mite as well tune this season out...

 

I share the same passion as many on this board sometimes I believe more, but I read what people be sayin about this team on this board and I'm like damn we as fans don't get along on here and don't believe in this team we better pray this team have some belief in themselves or we really in for a horrible ride!

 

If D. Bell nor Meredith don't pan out then let's have hope that they don't get our already weak lineup of QB's killed. Its rebuilding season not a championship season!

[tennesseeboy]

I think "miscalculation" is a very nice way to put it. The failure to address the offensive line effectively through the draft, trade and free agency is something we are going to pay for this season. Edwards, Fitz or Brohm won't have a chance, our running backs (the strength of the team in my opinion) will not be able to be as good as we would hope, and the receiving corps will be pretty useless when it comes to stretch the field passes, as the quarterbacks will be on their respective asses.

 

I like the Bills and have followed them since 1960, but to assert that they look competitive at this point is just a pipedream. And there were any num ber of opportunities to address this problem since Gailey and Nix took over.

 

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and expect them to produce nine or more wins. If that doesn't happen they should be on extremely thin ice, if not gone.

[JohnC]

I think "miscalculation" is a very nice way to put it. The failure to address the offensive line effectively through the draft, trade and free agency is something we are going to pay for this season. Edwards, Fitz or Brohm won't have a chance, our running backs (the strength of the team in my opinion) will not be able to be as good as we would hope, and the receiving corps will be pretty useless when it comes to stretch the field passes, as the quarterbacks will be on their respective asses.

 

As you smartly pointed out no substative upgrade on the line was made this offseason. As BillsVet pointed out this staff is gambling that players who were on the roster, hurt or backups, and haven't demonstrated an ability to be legitimate starters are counted on to be starters. That is a high risk gamble that can sabatoge the offense right from the start.

 

I like the Bills and have followed them since 1960, but to assert that they look competitive at this point is just a pipedream. And there were any num ber of opportunities to address this problem since Gailey and Nix took over.

 

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and expect them to produce nine or more wins. If that doesn't happen they should be on extremely thin ice, if not gone.

 

This is not a nine win team and certainly not more than a nine win team. Both Gailey and Nix are well aware that this is a multiple year project for an owner over 90 yrs old and with little sense of urgency. My recommendation to you is that you need to tap down your expectation so you won't get so flustered. Tim Graham, an ESPN blogger who follows the AFC East and lives in Buffalo, went through the schedule and predicted that the Bills would win five games.

 

PS Miscalculation is a more gentle word for stupid.

[BillsVet]

I don't think it is arrogance in the belief that the players such as Meredith and Bell can adequately staff the most difficult position on the line so much as it is simply a miscalculation. When the Bills brought in Dockery and Walker and paid them at a high rate it turned out to be a miscalculation. When Langston Walker was designated as Peters's replacement at LT it was a gross miscalculation. Not drafting Ohrer after trading Peters was a miscalculation.

 

Sometimes organizations make mistakes because they become arrogant after a long stretch of success. That scenario certainly doesn't apply to the Bills. With respect to the Bills ineptitude is simply ineptitude. There is no need to reach for an exotic reason for why the Bills have had such a mediocre stretch.

 

I agree with you that not addressing the LT position in a meaningful way this offseason is a major gamble. Not only are Bell and Meredith risky gambles as starting LT players but the lack of depth leaves this team very vulnerable if an injury should occur at that position.

 

It may be more a case of not being able to address everything in one year. Nix so much as said so earlier in the off-season, as I'm sure he is aware how much rebuilding needs to happen, especially considering they've moved to a 3-4 alignment. Regardless, there are a host of miscalculations this team makes when it comes to players. And while some will say the organization has been overhauled, decision makers remain who have been part and parcel of those miscalculations: Modrak, Overdorf, and Brandon. It seemed that no matter how big the failure, no one took the fall from 06-09. The fact it took 4 seasons for even a semblance of change is absurd.

 

The entire OL is thin. The team has 2 guards with starting experience, 1 center, and none of the tackles are top-50 caliber IMHO. Once again, we're left "hoping" nothing bad happens. Ralph depends on luck, so why shouldn't we when it comes to players?

[Orton's Arm]

Brohm was considered a NFL Ready QB who had been playing in a pro-style offense. Where is he now?

 

The success of QBs in the NFL depend on the system they join, the sole exception being Peyton Manning. Brady, Rothelisberger, Brees, Cutler all enjoyed immediate success because their team was already built for success. Even the Jets rookie QB was able to take his team to the AFC Championship because he had a super-caliber OL in front of him (and he stunk inspite of that), a fantastic running game (best in the league) and a very good defense.

At least according to Starrymessenger (one of the people on this board), Brohm's college offense required him to make one read, and to dump the ball off if the read wasn't open. Assuming he's right--which I don't claim to be certain of--it would mean that Brohm had failed to prove himself at one of the most important tasks a QB can perform (making multiple reads). (That said, I'm still in the Brohm camp, mostly because I feel more curiosity about his potential than that of Edwards or Fitzpatrick.)

 

Back in the late '90s, there was an argument about whether the Colts should draft Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. Manning was considered the more polished and NFL-ready; which translated meant that he'd proven more as a pocket passer at the college level. Leaf, however, had the stronger arm; which caused some "experts" to conclude he had the better upside. My own feeling is that if you want a good pocket passer at a professional level, you take the guy who's proven himself as a pocket passer in college. In this case, that means Ponder.

 

It's important for a QB to find himself in a good system, with a coaching staff that will make the most of his talents, and with a good supporting cast (especially a good OL). But there's still a big difference between what a good QB will achieve and what a less talented one will. Take the New England Patriots, for example. Before Drew Bledsoe went down with that injury, the Patriots seemed like a respectable team. But nothing too special. After Tom Brady took over, however, the Patriots looked like an entirely different team. The pieces had been put in place to have a good offense, and Brady took better advantage of those pieces than Bledsoe had done. One contributing factor to that is that Brady can read the field a full second faster than Bledsoe can.

 

To take another example, the Falcons were dramatically better on offense in Matt Ryan's rookie year than they had been the previous year with Joey Harrington under center. That offensive improvement was largely attributable to the increase in the level of play they'd received at the QB position.

[milehiLou]

Very good question? Hard to answer that without seeing them in camp and evaluating them? Kind of a "trap" question.

 

I will say I wish we would have drafted Davis, Saffold, or Brown. Not a big fan of Campbell.

in that sense would you be more comfortable with mccoy tebow or clausen calling plays against miaimi, i think not

[JohnC]

It may be more a case of not being able to address everything in one year. Nix so much as said so earlier in the off-season, as I'm sure he is aware how much rebuilding needs to happen, especially considering they've moved to a 3-4 alignment.

 

There is no doubt that this is a multi-year rebuilding project. It is primarily going to be done through the draft. Nix has made it clear right from the start that that is going to be the path he is taking. A factor which has hurt the acceleration of the rebuilding process is that the CBA is going to be reopened and fought over. Not only the Bills, almost all teams, are going to be less aggressive in this year's free agency class because the owners are going to want to know how the new financial landscape is going to be structured. Those unsettled financial issues are also going to lower the rate of trades made. You can say that we are being victimized by bad timing.

 

 

Regardless, there are a host of miscalculations this team makes when it comes to players. And while some will say the organization has been overhauled, decision makers remain who have been part and parcel of those miscalculations: Modrak, Overdorf, and Brandon. It seemed that no matter how big the failure, no one took the fall from 06-09. The fact it took 4 seasons for even a semblance of change is absurd.

 

The lack of energy and willingness to change is a reflection of its faded owner. The owner sets the tone for the organization. Organizational lassitude originates from the the owner. There is nothing anyone esle can do about it. It is his call.

 

The entire OL is thin. The team has 2 guards with starting experience, 1 center, and none of the tackles are top-50 caliber IMHO. Once again, we're left "hoping" nothing bad happens. Ralph depends on luck, so why shouldn't we when it comes to players?

 

I suspect (hope) that there might be some judicious pickups on the OL when other team start making their cuts.

 

For the most part you and I are on the same wavelength in our assessment of the franchise. There are many people who find that assessment upsetting. The benefit of the doubt is not going to be given until it is earned. There is still a long way to go before that will happen with me.

[mpl6876]

Apparently it's okay to protect your $11M/year QB with a former 4th rounder who has never played the LT position, and who has only played RT for a handful of games, because you have good skill position players (Colombo is their starting RT and Barron is a bust, so why they were mentioned is anyone's guess).

 

No Doc, the point is that the Cowboys have offensive weapons, a very good mobile QB, a fantastic RB duo, pro bowl TE and very good WR's, and a good offensive line. As a result, they may be able to get away with a sub par LT. IMO, it will hurt them but not as much as a team like us.

 

You making a comparsion and singling out one position. I thought it was a ridculous comparsion. The Cowboys and the Bills shouldn't even be talked about in the same breath unless your talking about previous superbowls. That's coming from a person who hates the Cowboys.

 

That's the point...

[mpl6876]

So LT is not important if the rest of the team is good? Good to know. And why should the poster be ashamed for making a good point? Jesus, get a grip..it's a fan board.

 

I never said that! The point is the Cowboys are a solid super bowl contender and our Bills are solid contenders for last place in the NFL. The comparsions is and was silly and taken out of content. Yea so what the Cowboys have a LT that is medicore to average. The rest of their team is outstanding (not the secondary).

 

Refer to my previous post to Doc.

[mpl6876]

in that sense would you be more comfortable with mccoy tebow or clausen calling plays against miaimi, i think not

 

Very good question, it is hard to say without seeing them play.

 

In that case, why should the Bills draft anyone?

 

Are you satisfied and happy with the Bills current QB roster? I am not!

[Green Lightning]

I never said that! The point is the Cowboys are a solid super bowl contender and our Bills are solid contenders for last place in the NFL. The comparsions is and was silly and taken out of content. Yea so what the Cowboys have a LT that is medicore to average. The rest of their team is outstanding (not the secondary).

 

Refer to my previous post to Doc.

 

 

Again, so LT is not important if the rest of the team is good?

[mpl6876]

Again, so LT is not important if the rest of the team is good?

 

Are you simple minded? Let me try to say it again.

 

Every football fan knows the importance of the LT position. So don't try to belittle me.

 

The man made a comparsion between us and the Cowboys. He picked one position that the Cowboys appear to be weak in. The comparsion is so silly because the Cowboys by most everyone's account are a top notch football team. Our football team by most football fans is ----?

 

To answer your question. The LT position is very important but a solid offensive team like the Cowboys are more likely to be successful and overcome their shortcomings than teams like the Bills.

 

The comparsion was, is, and still is ridiculous.

 

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

[ganesh]

It may be more a case of not being able to address everything in one year. Nix so much as said so earlier in the off-season, as I'm sure he is aware how much rebuilding needs to happen, especially considering they've moved to a 3-4 alignment. Regardless, there are a host of miscalculations this team makes when it comes to players. And while some will say the organization has been overhauled, decision makers remain who have been part and parcel of those miscalculations: Modrak, Overdorf, and Brandon. It seemed that no matter how big the failure, no one took the fall from 06-09. The fact it took 4 seasons for even a semblance of change is absurd.

 

The entire OL is thin. The team has 2 guards with starting experience, 1 center, and none of the tackles are top-50 caliber IMHO. Once again, we're left "hoping" nothing bad happens. Ralph depends on luck, so why shouldn't we when it comes to players?

 

Marv Levy (GM), Dick Jauron (Draft) and John Guy (Pro Personnel), the arcihtiects of the teams between 06-09 are no longer on this team. They took the fall. So did most of the coaching staff. We do not have our past three OCs.

 

A lot of the folks on this forum make it out as if all teams have "starting caliber" players as their backups. The NFL is pretty watered down and it comes down to how the coaching works for your team. If the coaching system is good, the backups can become starters. After all the backups on the other teams are also 7th rounders and UDFAs, not 1st round draft picks.

 

We have drafted poorly at the top and paying the price for it now....McCargo, Whitner, etc have been plain unproductive for the position they were picked.

[ganesh]

At least according to Starrymessenger (one of the people on this board), Brohm's college offense required him to make one read, and to dump the ball off if the read wasn't open. Assuming he's right--which I don't claim to be certain of--it would mean that Brohm had failed to prove himself at one of the most important tasks a QB can perform (making multiple reads). (That said, I'm still in the Brohm camp, mostly because I feel more curiosity about his potential than that of Edwards or Fitzpatrick.)

 

Back in the late '90s, there was an argument about whether the Colts should draft Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. Manning was considered the more polished and NFL-ready; which translated meant that he'd proven more as a pocket passer at the college level. Leaf, however, had the stronger arm; which caused some "experts" to conclude he had the better upside. My own feeling is that if you want a good pocket passer at a professional level, you take the guy who's proven himself as a pocket passer in college. In this case, that means Ponder.

 

It's important for a QB to find himself in a good system, with a coaching staff that will make the most of his talents, and with a good supporting cast (especially a good OL). But there's still a big difference between what a good QB will achieve and what a less talented one will. Take the New England Patriots, for example. Before Drew Bledsoe went down with that injury, the Patriots seemed like a respectable team. But nothing too special. After Tom Brady took over, however, the Patriots looked like an entirely different team. The pieces had been put in place to have a good offense, and Brady took better advantage of those pieces than Bledsoe had done. One contributing factor to that is that Brady can read the field a full second faster than Bledsoe can.

 

To take another example, the Falcons were dramatically better on offense in Matt Ryan's rookie year than they had been the previous year with Joey Harrington under center. That offensive improvement was largely attributable to the increase in the level of play they'd received at the QB position.

 

Agreed 100% what you said. Also, I think Matt Ryan benefited from having a very good OC, a guy Marv Levy ran out of town.

[Doc]

Are you simple minded? Let me try to say it again.

 

Every football fan knows the importance of the LT position. So don't try to belittle me.

 

The man made a comparsion between us and the Cowboys. He picked one position that the Cowboys appear to be weak in. The comparsion is so silly because the Cowboys by most everyone's account are a top notch football team. Our football team by most football fans is ----?

 

To answer your question. The LT position is very important but a solid offensive team like the Cowboys are more likely to be successful and overcome their shortcomings than teams like the Bills.

 

The comparsion was, is, and still is ridiculous.

 

NOW DO YOU GET IT?

What hogwash. I compared the LEFT TACKLE position. I didn't compare the teams. Try a reading comprehension course before making silly posts about what you think I said, and then calling that silly.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Marv Levy (GM), Dick Jauron (Draft) and John Guy (Pro Personnel), the arcihtiects of the teams between 06-09 are no longer on this team. They took the fall. So did most of the coaching staff. We do not have our past three OCs.

I don't expect lots of forward progress with this trip on the coaching staff merry-go-round. Some replacements may be slight improvements and some may not. The Bills spent the last 4 years training some young assistants that have gone on to new gigs with other teams. The biggest areas of improvement are hopefully in the head coach and offensive coordinator, which are now the same person. The other big change is having a "Football GM" that appears to be focused on putting a team on the field rather than keeping everyone wanting to be here.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Getting back to the players themselves, Meredith was a top performer in just about everything at the combine, plus he had a good GPA implying some smarts. So if the guy measures up in every pre draft measurement prescribed by the NFL to evalute phsical ability,how can folks know better about his potnetial? Perhaps he just is a coaching project the packers weren't willing to invest in... The scouting reports I read knocked technique, which i presume is fixable?

 

I'd say he is worth watching in camp, and doe shave the potnetial to be a solution. Remember peters was an UDFA nobody that could have been signed off of Buffalos practice squad too...

 

Not all good NFL LT's come from frist round picks. In fact I challenge the forum to name 5 present day Top rate LT's that were first rounders.

[JohnC]

Agreed 100% what you said. Also, I think Matt Ryan benefited from having a very good OC, a guy Marv Levy ran out of town.

 

Marv Levy did not run Malarky out of town. It is the opposite. Levy publicly stated that he was there to help Malarky in any way he could. Plain and simple Malarky wanted out. He realized that the way this dysfunctional organization worked that he stood little chance to succeed. It was Malarky who sought the buy out he got.

 

There are not many HCs who would seek a buyout of their current HC job, especially when they would be allowed to play out their contract. He wanting to leave what is normally considered a coveted job by a coach is a statement in itself about the state of affairs of the franchise during his tenure.

 

When Greg Williams was in the last year of his contract Tom Donahoe offered him a short extension so he woudln't be a lame duck HC. Williams declined. After the expiration of his contract he left to be the DC for the Redskins where he made twice as much money as he did when he was the HC for the Bills.

[tennesseeboy]

Getting back to the players themselves, Meredith was a top performer in just about everything at the combine, plus he had a good GPA implying some smarts. So if the guy measures up in every pre draft measurement prescribed by the NFL to evalute phsical ability,how can folks know better about his potnetial? Perhaps he just is a coaching project the packers weren't willing to invest in... The scouting reports I read knocked technique, which i presume is fixable?

 

I'd say he is worth watching in camp, and doe shave the potnetial to be a solution. Remember peters was an UDFA nobody that could have been signed off of Buffalos practice squad too...

 

Not all good NFL LT's come from frist round picks. In fact I challenge the forum to name 5 present day Top rate LT's that were first rounders.

hell there were four last year...Oher, Monroe, Smiths, Jason and Andre. Jake Long and Ryan Cady from the 2008 first round. Thomas, Brown and Staley from the year before that. Bryant McKinney and Orlando Pace from years past come to mind. Where on earth did you come up with that assertion?