The left tackle battle

[Magox]

Gamble?

 

At this stage of the game, characterizing our situation at LT a "gamble" would be an upgrade from reality.

[tennesseeboy]

Gamble?

 

At this stage of the game, characterizing our situation at LT a "gamble" would be an upgrade from reality.

That really hurts...probably because it is so true.

[Red]

Re: Jamon Meredith. There actually are reasons this kid fell in the draft to the 5th round and ended up on the practice squad of a team riddled with injuries on their OL. He is not one of those long armed, big butt, natural knee-benders. He didn't dominate in the SEC and took plays off. People aren't sure if he's really a LT because he's not quick. They aren't sure if he is a RT because of his lack of size and strength. They aren't sure he's a guard and can play at the wheel, either. He's not terribly nibble, aggressive, nor strong. He's more of a lanky, hip-bending, better than average athlete that has a lot of work to do before being a solid pro lineman. He's a more passive Brad Butler with maybe a dash more athleticism.

 

Not that rounding out the OL like this is unusual for Buffalo. The Bills have been trying to roll with the Brad Butler types filling out the OL, which is half of any football offense, for a long time.

 

 

Great point.

 

I remember reading Brian Billick's book last year. In it, there was a section where he discussed that every team in the NFL has a particular position, that based on its philosophy, is going to tend to be its weakest.

 

I think what you mention here is of excellent merit- when the Bills were going to Super Bowls, the offensive line was a priority. Since those days (w/perhaps John Fina and Ruben Brown being the last good picks- w/the exception of E. Wood) the offensive line has been an afterthought. Other teams scrap heap players are brought in (Villarial, Teague, Simmons, Incognito, Meredith, Walker, Dockery, and possibly Hangartner), and everyone wonders why our QB's are constantly on their arse. The offensive line has been an afterthought. They just don't consider it one of the most important aspects of the team.

 

Now, compare that to the strength of our secondary. Is it any coincidence, that Jauron was a defensive back when he played, his first coaching gig was w/Jacksonville in the secondary, and he is a defensive coordinator by trade AND the strongest position on the Bills team is the defensive secondary? How many high round draft picks this past decade went to the CB and Safety positions? Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, McKelvin, Whitner, Ko Simpson, Bryd, McGee, Youboty. What is interesting is that even before Jauron, defensive coordinator Jerry Gray was a secondary specialist before becoming coordinator, too. Note how S Pierson Preleau followed him to Washington. So, the pattern of emphasizing the secondary has been in place for this past decade.

 

What I cannot understand, is how after all of the turnover in the past 15 years of coaches, trainers, and GM's...how can the offensive line be considered such an afterthought given the Bills struggles at the position since pretty much 1999. What I think it may be, may have to do with a certain gentleman by the name of Jim Overdorf. Looking at salaries of players, and how to build and manage a team financially, the defensive secondary may have more instant bang for the buck with having high round rookies start.

 

I don't agree with that strategy, as it all starts and finishes on the lines. And if the past 10 years have been an indicator, it should be clear to everyone involved in Bills land that placing the O-line on the backburner is a great way for your team to get, well...burnt.

[Doc]

Re: Jamon Meredith. There actually are reasons this kid fell in the draft to the 5th round and ended up on the practice squad of a team riddled with injuries on their OL. He is not one of those long armed, big butt, natural knee-benders. He didn't dominate in the SEC and took plays off. People aren't sure if he's really a LT because he's not quick. They aren't sure if he is a RT because of his lack of size and strength. They aren't sure he's a guard and can play at the wheel, either. He's not terribly nibble, aggressive, nor strong. He's more of a lanky, hip-bending, better than average athlete that has a lot of work to do before being a solid pro lineman. He's a more passive Brad Butler with maybe a dash more athleticism.

 

Not that rounding out the OL like this is unusual for Buffalo. The Bills have been trying to roll with the Brad Butler types filling out the OL, which is half of any football offense, for a long time.

Meredith has good size (6'5" and 304# at the combine) and strength (did 31 reps of 225#) and his agility numbers match-up favorably with the top OT prospects last year:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/playe...s&order=ASC

Several draft sites had him rated highly and cited his "loose hips" and "quickness off the ball." But obviously he wasn't, and still isn't, a finished product. And questions of toughness and coachability were there.

 

Wow. It's 2010, but I guess it's a start.

Where ya been? I've been saying this for 5 years now on the D&C board. The point in saying this (to others) is that given their histories since being with the Bills, they were obviously a large part of the problem.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Meredith has good size (6'5" and 304# at the combine) and strength (did 31 reps of 225#) and his agility numbers match-up favorably with the top OT prospects last year:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/playe...s&order=ASC

Several draft sites had him rated highly and cited his "loose hips" and "quickness off the ball." But obviously he wasn't, and still isn't, a finished product. And questions of toughness and coachability were there.

We covered the "he looked good in his spandex" aspect of this. Despite what "several draft sites" wrote, he fell to the 5th round. You can ostrich it or not.

[Pirate Angel]

Anything has to be better than last years recipe. 1. take last years RG and move him to RT

2. Sign a free agent guard to play center

3. Draft a center to play RG

4. Draft a LT to play LG

5. release player that was practicing LT all offseason realease him 1

week before season to allow injury prone and inexperianced player

take over your most important position

6. have all said players but 1 get injured where your forced to signed

street free agents and place them into the starting lineup.

[Doc]

We covered the "he looked good in his spandex" aspect of this. Despite what "several draft sites" wrote, he fell to the 5th round. You can ostrich it or not.

We'll see on the football field.

[spartacus]

We'll see on the football field.

 

should look the same as the last 15 years

[Sisyphean Bills]

We'll see on the football field.

That's what I'm talking about. Look, if defensive lineman were shaped like bars and moved like gym weights and you played offensive line lying flat on your back on a bench, then how a lineman looks throwing up reps in his Under Armour at the NFL combine would be the be all and end all.

 

The reality is you have guys like Dan Brandenburg, who clocks like a cheetah, lifts like a gorilla, and contributes as a football player by filling a locker for a couple of years.

[Doc]

That's what I'm talking about. Look, if defensive lineman were shaped like bars and moved like gym weights and you played offensive line lying flat on your back on a bench, then how a lineman looks throwing up reps in his Under Armour at the NFL combine would be the be all and end all.

 

The reality is you have guys like Dan Brandenburg, who clocks like a cheetah, lifts like a gorilla, and contributes as a football player by filling a locker for a couple of years.

The other reality is that college production isn't a fool-proof way to tell you if a guy will succeed or not at the next level. Otherwise you wouldn't have guys like Robert Gallery. And LT's need to have certain attributes that can be measured at the combine, that if they're absent, make the player unworthy of being developed. Like size, strength, and arm length. Quickness off the snap, toughness, durability, and coachability are things that can't be measured, only theorized, and that can lead to players dropping.

 

I guess the question would be, how well can you scout OL? And who in this year's draft do you think will succeed (I'd ask for past predictions, but when I do that, people suddenly become Carnac)?

[Thurman#1]

The Bills didn't have a shot at Ferguson, Long, or Thomas, or a whole host of others who haven't yet proven themselves. They had a shot at Clady, but he was from Boise State, which plays in the MAC, so it wasn't like he was a sure thing. Moreover look at how many OT's are taken in the 1st and 2nd round who bust. The point was that you can find a successful LT from outside the 1st 2 rounds.

 

 

 

The odds are much lower, but it's possible.

[Thurman#1]

Let's get the timeline right. Mularkey had already fired several assistants. He wasn't falling on his sword for them; they had already been dumped.

 

Now, why would I choose to not believe what the man said himself versus your take? He said he realized that the organization was headed in the wrong direction, that it wasn't being put together in such a way that he could compete, and thus he decided to quit. Mike Mularkey said this himself. That trumps internet rumor and innuendo about his kid maybe getting a swirly at school so he had to tuck his tail between his legs and leave Buffalo.

 

Why did he say that? It was obviously directed at Ralph and Marv who had a few weeks prior installed themselves as the President and "GM of Football". In 20/20 hindsight, Coach Mularkey called a spade a spade and was dead nuts right on target. Marv and Ralph weren't up to the task. That's just objectively obvious at this point.

 

 

 

A lot of the reason Marv and Ralph looked so crappy is that they were stuck with Mularkey as HC. Not all of it, I certainly grant you that, our first round drafting was pretty bad, but Mularkey was part of the problem.

 

It's not a coincidence that Mularkey has never been offered another HC position and hasn't even been thought of in that way ever again.

[Orton's Arm]

Great point.

 

I remember reading Brian Billick's book last year. In it, there was a section where he discussed that every team in the NFL has a particular position, that based on its philosophy, is going to tend to be its weakest.

 

I think what you mention here is of excellent merit- when the Bills were going to Super Bowls, the offensive line was a priority. Since those days (w/perhaps John Fina and Ruben Brown being the last good picks- w/the exception of E. Wood) the offensive line has been an afterthought. Other teams scrap heap players are brought in (Villarial, Teague, Simmons, Incognito, Meredith, Walker, Dockery, and possibly Hangartner), and everyone wonders why our QB's are constantly on their arse. The offensive line has been an afterthought. They just don't consider it one of the most important aspects of the team.

 

Now, compare that to the strength of our secondary. Is it any coincidence, that Jauron was a defensive back when he played, his first coaching gig was w/Jacksonville in the secondary, and he is a defensive coordinator by trade AND the strongest position on the Bills team is the defensive secondary? How many high round draft picks this past decade went to the CB and Safety positions? Antoine Winfield, Nate Clements, McKelvin, Whitner, Ko Simpson, Bryd, McGee, Youboty. What is interesting is that even before Jauron, defensive coordinator Jerry Gray was a secondary specialist before becoming coordinator, too. Note how S Pierson Preleau followed him to Washington. So, the pattern of emphasizing the secondary has been in place for this past decade.

 

What I cannot understand, is how after all of the turnover in the past 15 years of coaches, trainers, and GM's...how can the offensive line be considered such an afterthought given the Bills struggles at the position since pretty much 1999. What I think it may be, may have to do with a certain gentleman by the name of Jim Overdorf. Looking at salaries of players, and how to build and manage a team financially, the defensive secondary may have more instant bang for the buck with having high round rookies start.

 

I don't agree with that strategy, as it all starts and finishes on the lines. And if the past 10 years have been an indicator, it should be clear to everyone involved in Bills land that placing the O-line on the backburner is a great way for your team to get, well...burnt.

Very solid post! I completely agree that the Bills have de-prioritized the OL for some time now. It's quite possible that the financial considerations you mentioned played a role in that.

 

I'd argue that the OL was de-prioritized at an even earlier date than the one you mentioned. During John Butler's tenure as GM (1993-2000), the Bills used one first round pick on an OL (Ruben Brown) and no second round picks. But then again, Wade Phillips was a defensive guy, so maybe that was part of the reason the OL didn't get a very high priority in the mid-to-late '90s.

 

I also agree with your reasons as to why the OL was not a high priority under Levy/Jauron. I think another contributing factor was the general "win now" mentality that Levy/Jauron had--a shortsightedness shared by TD. The emphasis during both regimes was on drafting players who could contribute immediately--such as RBs, DBs, LBs, and so forth--rather than on players--such as OL--who are typically slower to develop.

[mpl6876]

Very solid post! I completely agree that the Bills have de-prioritized the OL for some time now. It's quite possible that the financial considerations you mentioned played a role in that.

 

I'd argue that the OL was de-prioritized at an even earlier date than the one you mentioned. During John Butler's tenure as GM (1993-2000), the Bills used one first round pick on an OL (Ruben Brown) and no second round picks. But then again, Wade Phillips was a defensive guy, so maybe that was part of the reason the OL didn't get a very high priority in the mid-to-late '90s.

 

I also agree with your reasons as to why the OL was not a high priority under Levy/Jauron. I think another contributing factor was the general "win now" mentality that Levy/Jauron had--a shortsightedness shared by TD. The emphasis during both regimes was on drafting players who could contribute immediately--such as RBs, DBs, LBs, and so forth--rather than on players--such as OL--who are typically slower to develop.

 

I agree and it appears like the Nix/Gailey regime is doing the same thing with the OL...To date no big moves to draft or pick up anyone of proven quaility on the OL.

[Sisyphean Bills]

I guess the question would be, how well can you scout OL? And who in this year's draft do you think will succeed (I'd ask for past predictions, but when I do that, people suddenly become Carnac)?

Right back at you. Post your scouting reports here so anyone can nitpick them with hindsight. That should be a good time for you.

 

Of course, that is really not the question and not the point of my posts whatsoever. You missed the point again. What I wrote about Jamon Meredith were statements made in publicly available scouting reports. No, I didn't scout him. My post was in contrast to those posts that took some 1st round predictions on some websites and have run amok with optimistic fantasy to build some illusion that the Bills have really already addressed their offensive line problems because they got multiple nearly almost virtual 1st round OL picks last year.

 

If it helps one sleep through the night to believe Meredith, Wood, Levitre, and Bell are just as inexperienced as any other young lineman and therefore just as talented, roll with it.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Very solid post! I completely agree that the Bills have de-prioritized the OL for some time now. It's quite possible that the financial considerations you mentioned played a role in that.

Ask yourself if you think the average fan goes to a football game to watch line play. That should answer the question.

 

On the other hand, if you really want to understand the game within the game, don't watch the ball.

[spartacus]

I guess the question would be, how well can you scout OL?

 

for teh Bills, that answer is obvious.

 

For the past 15 years, the Bills have been totally inept at scouting and identifying OL talent.

 

 

even when they spent the 4th pick, they butchered the pick by taking the fat, unmotivated RT over the stud LT.

 

other than references to Linda Bogdan being the head OL scout, who is responsible for scouting the OL?

[BillsVet]

Ultimately, Buffalo's preference for drafting skill players with their top picks is why they've not fielded top DL or OL the past decade. In that same time, they've selected several skill players who have a hard time producing without the big men up front. This should be elemental, but in a football universe made up of fantasy football fans, it's always good to take a QB, RB, or WR regardless of the OL . Problem is, real honest to goodness NFL team's aren't built like a fantasy team is. In the former, you've actually got to dominate at the LOS to win. Not surprisingly, Buffalo hasn't and will not in 2010.

[JohnC]

A lot of the reason Marv and Ralph looked so crappy is that they were stuck with Mularkey as HC. Not all of it, I certainly grant you that, our first round drafting was pretty bad, but Mularkey was part of the problem.

 

Marv as a GM and Ralph as an owner look crappy because both were/are embarrassingly incompetent. The congenial Marv in his short stint as a fake GM set this franchise back for years. Ralph's half century of ownership reflects the worst record for any one owner in the league's history.

[agardin]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writ...ies1/index.html

 

This is an article by Ross Tucker on how much difference there is between elite lineman and perceived scrubs. I remeber reading it a few years ago and I thought it would add a different perspective to the thread.

 

I don't think I agree with him as one or two plays a game does make a difference in wins and losses. A third down conversion at the right time can mean the ball game; it is a game of inches after all.