Doc Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Just to add one more note in this thread about the subject at hand, Ralph isn't cheap! The entire decade of the 70's was lost as the Bills didn't beat the Miami Dolphins once in that entire ten year span, TEN YEARS! Ralph Wilson finally hired a name head coach in Chuck Knox and that man built a bad Buffalo Bills team into a playoff team. Knox took over a team that won 5 games out of the last 28. From an article: ""I was very impressed with the atmosphere in Buffalo. The Bills fans are really great fans. When I first started coaching in Buffalo, they had only sold 18,000 season tickets, and we could not even get a home preseason game because people would not come out to see it. But that changed once we won the division with an 11-5 record in 1981…we were selling the place out and it has been that way ever since."" http://www.legendschannel.com/chuck-knox-d...-buffalo-bills/ Anyone care to revisit the reason as to why Chuck Knox didn't stay in Buffalo, let me refresh your memories! ""After a 4-5 strike-shortened season in 1982, Knox failed to come to terms on a new contract with team owner Ralph Wison and left to accept the head coaching position with the Seahawks "" http://www.biographicon.com/view/7wjz0/Chuck_Knox After he left Buffalo, Chuck Knox called Buffalo a "coaches graveyard"...wonder why? You Ralph lovers can visualize the past anyway you like, just get a grip on reality as this owner is his own worst enemy...and ours, the fans. I don't think anyone will claim that Ralph wasn't cheap until about the late 80's.
Buffalonian-at-Heart Posted July 18, 2010 Author Posted July 18, 2010 In other posts in this thread I mentioned that Polian was always fighting with Littman and Wilson to to get them to spend money on players and stadium upgrades. I can only imagine that Butler saw what Polian went through and also had to endure some of that himself, so even though the final offer from Wilson might have been somewhat fair, was it worth it to stay in Buffalo or move on to work for a different owner... A quote from that article: ""Wilson's cantankerous ways are well known. But his approach this time was curious, to say the least. With one game remaining in the team's season, in essence he told Butler: "If I can't hire you, I'll fire you." "" http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga...s_insider_1220/ Like I mentioned in another post in this thread, Bill Polian went on to have an good relationship with the owner of the Panthers and Colts, that Colt team has been in the playoffs the last ten years and the SB twice. He was GM of the Carolina Panthers 1994-1996, from inception of a new franchise to the NFC championship game in two years, he left the Panthers and the Colts hired him as GM & President. Honestly, its a damn shame that Mr cantankerous & Polian couldn't work out their differences, think of the twenty+ years of winning that could have been Of course we don't know because we don't study each team and their history, but I suspect most GM's have to fight with the owner to get money.
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 As has been mentioned, it's possible that Polian learned to keep his temper under control. If you think Polian is any less opinionated than he used to be then you think wrong. He's the President of the Colts; he's the top guy in the organization, so it is obvious that the structure and process is transparent to him. It would be ridiculous to assume he didn't have a say in the budget. I was saying that Polian had a chance to build a team from the ground level and Butler had a similar, but not quite as pristine, situation with the Chargers. The Bills were also the worst team in the league when Polian, et.al. arrived in Buffalo. So what?
Doc Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 If you think Polian is any less opinionated than he used to be then you think wrong. He's the President of the Colts; he's the top guy in the organization, so it is obvious that the structure and process is transparent to him. It would be ridiculous to assume he didn't have a say in the budget. He may be as opinionated, but I doubt he's anywhere near as abrasive to the ownership/family. I doubt he'd call Irsay's daughter the C word (and Polian's lucky Ralph didn't get someone to break his neck after he did). The Bills were also the worst team in the league when Polian, et.al. arrived in Buffalo. So what? I was saying that Butler looked at Polian leaving for a rebuilding job that didn't involve having to clean up a cap mess, and that was a major factor in leaving for SD. But since you asked, there's a theme there with Polian. He's taken over teams with the 1st overall pick (although he wasn't involved with the Bills' 1983 draft that got them Kelly, or the 1985 draft that got them Bruce, Reed, and Reich). Again, would it be better for the Bills to have the 1st overall pick?
The_Philster Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I don't think anyone will claim that Ralph wasn't cheap until about the late 80's. Don't bother...many of us have been saying that the whole thread and he still doesn't seem to get it.
Sisyphean Bills Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 He may be as opinionated, but I doubt he's anywhere near as abrasive to the ownership/family. I doubt he'd call Irsay's daughter the C word (and Polian's lucky Ralph didn't get someone to break his neck after he did). You missed the point entirely. Maybe he isn't as abrasive because he doesn't need to be. Does Irsay micromanage him? Does Irsay's personal attorney keep an eagle eye on spending vs. return? Is the financial side of the Colts swinging the hammer? Does Irsay have a daughter working in the scouting department that is threatening to go over Bill's head because she has a different opinion? I was saying that Butler looked at Polian leaving for a rebuilding job that didn't involve having to clean up a cap mess, and that was a major factor in leaving for SD. But since you asked, there's a theme there with Polian. He's taken over teams with the 1st overall pick (although he wasn't involved with the Bills' 1983 draft that got them Kelly, or the 1985 draft that got them Bruce, Reed, and Reich). Again, would it be better for the Bills to have the 1st overall pick? I see. So the key to building a franchise is having the 1st overall pick. The Colts did have that 13 seasons ago.
Doc Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 You missed the point entirely. Maybe he isn't as abrasive because he doesn't need to be. Does Irsay micromanage him? Does Irsay's personal attorney keep an eagle eye on spending vs. return? Is the financial side of the Colts swinging the hammer? Does Irsay have a daughter working in the scouting department that is threatening to go over Bill's head because she has a different opinion? Well, there is a salary cap now, unlike when Polian was with the Bills. It's not like the Irsay's were big spenders in the pre-cap days. I'm sure a lot of angst Polian felt would have been eliminated know he had a cap within which he had to work. As for his handling of Ralph's daughter, that was classless no matter what. But class and Polian never really went hand-in-hand. I see. So the key to building a franchise is having the 1st overall pick. The Colts did have that 13 seasons ago. I don't know. That's why I'm asking. It seems to have worked for former Bills' GM's.
FitzShowUsYourTitz Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Ralph Fired Bill Polian. That is worse than letting go of Peyton Manning, Walter Peyton or Babe Ruth. He is an awful decision maker and won't pay for top GM's and coaches. (And when he does spend money lately it's in all the wrong places.....ie letting Marv go buy an offensive line).
The_Philster Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Ralph Fired Bill Polian. That is worse than letting go of Peyton Manning, Walter Peyton or Babe Ruth. so are you man enough to try picking fights with other people in your company like Polian did or are you just spouting off just to spout off?
OldTimer1960 Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 RALPH IS CHEAP WHERE IT COUNTS!!! Ralph will not pay for probowl players. He has consistently allowed players we have drafted who have developed into star and or probowl players leave because he refuses to pay them market value. In particular CB is probably the best position to use as an example. Next would probably be linemen like Pat Williams and Jason Peters. Ralph is known for overpaying for average talent though. This no doubt inflates the salary numbers from year to year without seeing the results on the field. I have to take issue with this. There is paying for performance and there is over-paying for performance. If you over-pay certain players on your roster vs. their performance level, it will hurt you in two areas: 1. there will be discontent on the team as other players will want to be compensated "equitably" to the over-paid players 2. there will be less money to spend on the rest of the team. The reality is that there is a limit to what any team can reasonably spend. It is a function of their revenue and the salary cap. Spending within a given team's revenue is NOT an indictment of a team's owner as "cheap". It is fiscal responsibility. Reality is that if Mr. Wilson spent more than his revenue, then he'd be more inclined to move the team or sell the team to someone who would move the team. There is a balance to achieve. Now, if one wishes to take issue with the Bills' selection of coaches and players, then I think that is fair. IMHO, for a team in the lower third of revenue, I think it is imperative to be as efficient as possible when it comes to coaching and player selection. Now, it isn't necessarily fair to hold them to a higher standard than the other teams when it comes to this, however, I think it would be prudent to spend a little more on coaching and scouting since the margin for error is less than with Dallas, NY, Wash and other BIG cities.
gobills123 Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Uh oh, another contradiction. You said you were done going back and forth with me. Looks like once again you don't even believe what you say. Yes, you are a "true Bills fan", rooting for a team you believe can't win. Here's another contradiction of yours. In this post you say he never wanted to be in Buffalo and basically no player has ever wanted to play for Ralph. Yet in a post after this you said "He got stuck with buffalo, and for many years he was a fantastic owner. He still is a fantastic owner, he is just too old now. He doesnt want to spend money, and doesnt seem to know whats going on anymore." Oh my God you're Bi-Polar. I 110 percent think the bills can win every year. Every year when the fans and media predict the bills to finish dead last in the division im always saying how wrong they are. I just think Ralph can do much more to help this team. Look at Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield. Two great corners, and Ralph wouldnt resign them. Why? Because they were too much money. Dont get me wrong, terrence mcgee and leodis mckelvin are great and i love them way more than nate and antoine but come on. At the time they were the best cornerback duo in the game and he wouldnt resign them. Thats being cheap. Sorry I dont waste time to use spell check. Again, I just think Ralph can help us a little more by signing more players and resigning players when their contracts are up. I dont want to be like little girls going back and forth. Just billieve. As a fellow bills fan, come on...billieve and make peace.
The_Philster Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 I 110 percent think the bills can win every year. Every year when the fans and media predict the bills to finish dead last in the division im always saying how wrong they are. I just think Ralph can do much more to help this team. Look at Nate Clements and Antoine Winfield. Two great corners, and Ralph wouldnt resign them. Why? Because they were too much money. Dont get me wrong, terrence mcgee and leodis mckelvin are great and i love them way more than nate and antoine but come on. At the time they were the best cornerback duo in the game and he wouldnt resign them. Thats being cheap. Sorry I dont waste time to use spell check. Again, I just think Ralph can help us a little more by signing more players and resigning players when their contracts are up. I dont want to be like little girls going back and forth. Just billieve. As a fellow bills fan, come on...billieve and make peace. Ralph isn't the GM...he didn't make the calls to let Winfield and Clements get away...it was Donahoe who made the call in Winfield and Jauron who made the call as far as letting Nate get away....though the latter departure...was a smart move...San Fran WAY overpaid for him
gobills123 Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Ralph isn't the GM...he didn't make the calls to let Winfield and Clements get away...it was Donahoe who made the call in Winfield and Jauron who made the call as far as letting Nate get away....though the latter departure...was a smart move...San Fran WAY overpaid for him Yeah but Ralph is the owner. He has the final say in every decsion. But i agree, Donahoe was an idiot. And im glad we got rid of clements, the 49ers overpaid him and he is not the same lock down corner as he was when he was with the bills. However, winfield has been the most dominant cornerback in the league for many years. He very rarely had any interceptions when he was with us, but as a viking he has been intercepting a lot more passes. Maybe it was the coaching. Lets go buffalo.
The_Philster Posted July 18, 2010 Posted July 18, 2010 Yeah but Ralph is the owner. He has the final say in every decsion. But i agree, Donahoe was an idiot. And im glad we got rid of clements, the 49ers overpaid him and he is not the same lock down corner as he was when he was with the bills. However, winfield has been the most dominant cornerback in the league for many years. He very rarely had any interceptions when he was with us, but as a viking he has been intercepting a lot more passes. Maybe it was the coaching. Lets go buffalo. Ralph gave Donahoe FULL control while he was here...or did you forget how signs were taken from fans late in Donahoe's last season? Ralph didn't approve of that and apologized for Donahoe's actions in regards to it when he fired him. Clements was never a lock down corner...he was always a gambling type of player...made big plays and gave them up as well. When I think lockdown corners who've played for Buffalo, the 1st name that comes to mind is Thomas Smith...QBs very rarely threw his way...Clements was the opposite
birdog1960 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Don't bother...many of us have been saying that the whole thread and he still doesn't seem to get it. and you abhor dishonesty? you admit that wilson sold a sham product for most of 30 years yet you hero worship him? granted, he spent some money for the next 20 with limited success but that doesn't make up for the fraud he perpetrated on long suffering bills fans of the late 60's,70's and 80's. "Buffalo will support a loser as well as anyone" he said in the late 60's and he played that hand nearly out. as chronicled in multiple posts on this thread, when he finally lucked into something good, he pi$$ed it away.
gobills123 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 Ralph gave Donahoe FULL control while he was here...or did you forget how signs were taken from fans late in Donahoe's last season? Ralph didn't approve of that and apologized for Donahoe's actions in regards to it when he fired him.Clements was never a lock down corner...he was always a gambling type of player...made big plays and gave them up as well. When I think lockdown corners who've played for Buffalo, the 1st name that comes to mind is Thomas Smith...QBs very rarely threw his way...Clements was the opposite I agree. Sorry, im a youngster and was too young when all that happened, sorry. From what i remember tho, clements last year as a bill he had a very bad year as he gave up many big plays. However, his last eight games as a bill he turned it around and played real good ball, and was a shut down corner. But again, eight games of good play doesnt cut it. He cost us many touchdown because of his gambles. 16 games of solid defense is what we need, like this year with mcgee and leodis.
The_Philster Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 and you abhor dishonesty? you admit that wilson sold a sham product for most of 30 years yet you hero worship him? more evidence of dishonesty with your ridiculous claim that I hero worship him. Let me just clue you in on something...speaking the truth about someone doesn't mean you worship that person. If you hero worship a person, you ignore their faults...which you even mention that I don't do. Do you even think about what you post or do you not care how ridiculous your posts look?
birdog1960 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 more evidence of dishonesty with your ridiculous claim that I hero worship him. Let me just clue you in on something...speaking the truth about someone doesn't mean you worship that person...sorry that you were never taught about the value and importance of integrity we're talking about wilson not me. how do you defend him through those years?
The_Philster Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 we're talking about wilson not me. how do you defend him through those years? show me where I have I made reference to facts that people conveniently ignore because they make them look foolish
birdog1960 Posted July 19, 2010 Posted July 19, 2010 show me where I have I made reference to facts that people conveniently ignore because they make them look foolish do you then feel that his first 30 year performance is justified by his next 20? does the last 20 make him a good much less great owner on its own merits? (now's the time to ask what the definiton of "is" is)
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