dave mcbride Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Winfield is undersized and his body is starting to fall apart. Top 5? No. Now, that is. But not five years ago. The Vikings have clearly gotten their money's worth from him. He's been an excellent player for the past half decade for them. I suppose I should preempt the predictably inane rejoinders that some here will be inclined to deliver about him being beat by a Bears' wideout in OT last year while suffering from a knee injury. For the Vikes, he has been -- and by all accounts excepting certain Bills fans who expect CBs to never make mistakes -- a very good player.
The_Philster Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 No one has ever claimed, in my recollection, that Ralph wasn't cheap before Polian...to keep suggesting otherwise is not only ridiculous, but dishonest..find some proof of anyone saying he wasn't cheap back then or just come out an admit you can't debate like an adult. As far as recently, the proof has been given repeatedly that he's not cheap anymore...anyone who ignores the facts that have been given ad nauseum is just arguing out of blind hatred I do not understand why he has not taken steps to preserve the franchise after he moves on? Maybe he has and this is his secret legacy to be revealed after he is gone?A rumor came out 2 1/2 years ago...when Ralph passes away, Mary gets the team...no estate tax...she plans to sell the team to Kelly's group of investors...considering the confidence with which Kelly has, at times, talked about keeping the team here, I'd say the rumor has a lot of validity
Bob in STL Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 No one has ever claimed, in my recollection, that Ralph wasn't cheap before Polian...to keep suggesting otherwise is not only ridiculous, but dishonest..find some proof of anyone saying he wasn't cheap back then or just come out an admit you can't debate like an adult.As far as recently, the proof has been given repeatedly that he's not cheap anymore...anyone who ignores the facts that have been given ad nauseum is just arguing out of blind hatred A rumor came out 2 1/2 years ago...when Ralph passes away, Mary gets the team...no estate tax...she plans to sell the team to Kelly's group of investors...considering the confidence with which Kelly has, at times, talked about keeping the team here, I'd say the rumor has a lot of validity I have heard that rumor and I hope it is true. I will take a lot of bread to make that deal.
thewildrabbit Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Ralph was cheap before Polian, and all during Polians tenure as the man had to fight tooth fang and claw to pay players like Jim Kelly, Bruce Smith, et al, and for stadium upgrades. He was cheap after Polian as evidenced by him not coming to terms with John Butler, and recently he continues to refuse to pay for a top coach / GM / president. A decade of not being in the playoffs isn't good enough reason to hire a top name, oh wait, the games are still sold out aren't they... All you Bills homies out there that think the guy who was fired in his last job as OC because his offense went 2-14 is going to resurrect this team anytime soon are delusional. His QB put up decent numbers because his team was always behind, and always playing catchup, opposing teams were dropping deep to stop the big play. What is truly a shame is that none of you see this now, but you will definitely see it once the season starts. If the team is willing to pay losers like Maybin-Dockery-Walker big money, then why not hire the very best coach / GM out there. I have a tough time believing that a 10 million dollar a year head coach like Shanahan or Cowher that takes the team to the playoffs or super bowl would be unaffordable and cost prohibitive. A great head coach would fill the luxury boxes, and fill every seat in the stadium, the seats would be sold out game after game...merchandise selling so fast they can't keep stocking quickly enough. What stinks is that fans are so blinded by the thought that this team can win in its current condition that games are still being sold out...and so sadly the status quo will remain the same until the demise of the franchise in Buffalo.
birdog1960 Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 No one has ever claimed, in my recollection, that Ralph wasn't cheap before Polian...to keep suggesting otherwise is not only ridiculous, but dishonest..find some proof of anyone saying he wasn't cheap back then or just come out an admit you can't DEBATE LIKE AN ADULT yes, that would be well received, especially from you. but i eagerly await a return personal attack in lieu of a reasoned argument (only to be later edited out). if wilson was cheap for 30+ years and not for 20- years (and that remains debatable as evidenced by this thread), does that not, on balance, make him cheap? Bob in Stl nailed it with the ordering of wilson's allegiance: league, franchise, staff, players....fans are not even on his list..and we've witnessed, over 50 years, how that translates to wins and losses for the team.
Delete This Account Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 yes, that would be well received, especially from you. but i eagerly await a return personal attack in lieu of a reasoned argument (only to be later edited out). if wilson was cheap for 30+ years and not for 20- years (and that remains debatable as evidenced by this thread), does that not, on balance, make him cheap? Bob in Stl nailed it with the ordering of wilson's allegiance: league, franchise, staff, players....fans are not even on his list..and we've witnessed, over 50 years, how that translates to wins and losses for the team. say what you will, but fans are on that list and high on it, as far as Mr. Wilson is concerned. i understand the frustrations that his actions are perceived to not reflect that, but he does regard the fans highly. as for an example: The absolute last straw for Tom Donahoe was when security staff were ordered to confiscate those "Fire Donahoe/Fire Mularkey" banners at the stadium. jw
birdog1960 Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 say what you will, but fans are on that list and high on it, as far as Mr. Wilson is concerned. i understand the frustrations that his actions are perceived to not reflect that, but he does regard the fans highly. as for an example: The absolute last straw for Tom Donahoe was when security staff were ordered to confiscate those "Fire Donahoe/Fire Mularkey" banners at the stadium. jw sorry jw. if that's the best example of wilson's benevolence to fans, i'll stick with my original thesis.
Delete This Account Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 sorry jw. if that's the best example of wilson's benevolence to fans, i'll stick with my original thesis. it's not the only example, but obviously, you have one opinion on this very polarizing issue, which i should know better not to wade into. i understand some of the points that people are making and have time and time again acknowledged that Mr. Wilson -- like anyone -- has his faults. but the problem i have with those people is that they fail to acknowledge any points raised in Mr. Wilson's defense and take comments and posts out of context in order to self-satisfy their world is black or white point of view and cul-de-sac minds. jw
Chalkie Gerzowski Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Ralphie snubbed Ahmad Rashad to an amount in the 10k range. Rashad bolted. The old-timers will remember that.
valle7878 Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Ralphie is cheap the only reason why they are ranked like that is becasue no one whats to play for Buffalo and they over pay for people plus like the last 8 years we have had a draft pick within the top 15.
birdog1960 Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 it's not the only example, but obviously, you have one opinion on this very polarizing issue, which i should know better not to wade into.i understand some of the points that people are making and have time and time again acknowledged that Mr. Wilson -- like anyone -- has his faults. but the problem i have with those people is that they fail to acknowledge any points raised in Mr. Wilson's defense and take comments and posts out of context in order to self-satisfy their world is black or white point of view and cul-de-sac minds. jw a dualist? really? and wilson and his apologists are nuanced in comparison. relatively speaking, wilson has been cheap and inneffectual over his tenure as owner. is that gray enough?
BillsVet Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 I don't dispute you at all. He was very cheap at times. Wilson always was and always will be a business man first and foremost. He was frugal in the 60's although he had the money to bail out Oakland and Boston and keep the AFL and his other buddies from going under. His allegiance was to the league first, then his franchise, then his staff, and lastly his players. He was downright cheap in the 70's and ran a very erratic franchise. There are numerous examples of this, most of them I have posted on in the past. His cheapness in the 70's carried into the 80's until he stumbled upon Bill Polian. Polian was a low priced, unknown GM that turned out to be a diamond in the rough. Polian started to do great things and he hung in there until he could not handle arguing with Ralph's accountant, Mr. Littman, any longer. The dispute over the contract to Cornelius Bennett was followed by the Littman's refusal to allow Polian to renegotiate Will Woolford's contract. You see, Polian knew what was going to happen once free agency went into effect and he was trying to renegotiate the core players in advance. Littman stopped him. Ralph sided with Littman, and Polian bailed. All of these stories about Polian and Ralph’s daughter not getting along are secondary to this issue. Once the salary cap and free agency were established (something that Polian worked on with commissioner Tagliabue) Ralph initially had no problem spending to the cap and he enjoyed the fruits of NFL revenue sharing. However, he would never pay for an elite coaching staff or the other extras to help the franchise. Erie county and New Your State taxpayers have funded upgrades to the stadium, the practice field, the luxury boxes, etc. To my knowledge Ralph has put $0 into the stadium that bears his name, even though his financial legacy will be far greater than his heirs can absorb. Today he spends cash to cap only. In the decade of the 2000's he has changed coaches and GMs many times with no success as of yet. He spends less on salaries and bonuses than many teams, but not so much less as to prohibit being competitive. He spends much less on his coaching staff and front office personnel and this is where he fails to build a winning team. As always Ralph remains loyal to his inner circle of business associates. He is loyal to the city of Buffalo too. He has kept the team in place for over 50 years. I do not understand why he has not taken steps to preserve the franchise after he moves on? Maybe he has and this is his secret legacy to be revealed after he is gone? An outstanding post. Ralph is a polarizing figure, probably the most of any sports personality Buffalo has ever seen. I suppose it's impossible to ever succeed in today's NFL with RW owning the club. It's clear he spends a certain level on players because the NFL CBA mandates it. Meanwhile, spending on coaches and front office personnel is not required, and not surprisingly it's where he skimps. Amazing to think with a guy who's worth some money that he will not pay the people who are charged with finding the players that make the money.
Delete This Account Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 a dualist? really? and wilson and his apologists are nuanced in comparison. relatively speaking, wilson has been cheap and inneffectual over his tenure as owner. is that gray enough? no. you've proven my point. jw
thewildrabbit Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 say what you will, but fans are on that list and high on it, as far as Mr. Wilson is concerned. i understand the frustrations that his actions are perceived to not reflect that, but he does regard the fans highly. as for an example: The absolute last straw for Tom Donahoe was when security staff were ordered to confiscate those "Fire Donahoe/Fire Mularkey" banners at the stadium. jw The man might cherish the fans and realize without them he has nothing and owns nothing, it still doesn't justify his thinking past and present about his head coach choices. He has to know that Chuck Knox took his team from horrid to really good in a few short years, even with Stew Barber as GM. He also has to know that hiring another really good coach could propel the team to the playoffs, and give the fans what they really want... a winning team they can be proud of again. This is after all 2010 and no longer the 60's, 80's or 90's, it will soon be 2 decades since their last super bowl appearance and a decade since the last playoff appearance.
JohnC Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 it's not the only example, but obviously, you have one opinion on this very polarizing issue, which i should know better not to wade into.i understand some of the points that people are making and have time and time again acknowledged that Mr. Wilson -- like anyone -- has his faults. but the problem i have with those people is that they fail to acknowledge any points raised in Mr. Wilson's defense and take comments and posts out of context in order to self-satisfy their world is black or white point of view and cul-de-sac minds. jw Your basic argument in defense of the owner is that not only does he have faults but there are positive traits which aren't acknowledged by a segment of the fanbase. That is a peculiar position to take for the simple reason that everyone has positive and negative traits. No one is immune from that ambiguity. It is a fact of life. Nothing is ever totally black or white. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for HALF A CENTURY. His record is well established. There was one period of time from the 60s to 80s where the franchise was consistently bad. That is a full GENERATION. We are presently in the NFL designed system of parity. The Bills have been bad for a decade and still counting. Any fair-minded person will acknowlege that the team is years away from respectability. In other words, it is again going to be nearly another GENERATION of mediocrity. Ralph Wilson is nearly 92 years old. He is physically and mentally very frail. That is understandable; that is part of the life cycle. Ralph's record as an owner is already well established. It represents systemic mediocrity. JW, you have this reluctance to hold the most important and influential person in the organization accountable for its performance. I don't have that reluctance. If you want to tip toe around what is obvious to most people that is your prerogative. The Bills are what they are because the owner is who he is.
Delete This Account Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 Your basic argument in defense of the owner is that not only does he have faults but there are positive traits which aren't acknowledged by a segment of the fanbase. That is a peculiar position to take for the simple reason that everyone has positive and negative traits. No one is immune from that ambiguity. It is a fact of life. Nothing is ever totally black or white. Ralph Wilson has owned the team for HALF A CENTURY. His record is well established. There was one period of time from the 60s to 80s where the franchise was consistently bad. That is a full GENERATION. We are presently in the NFL designed system of parity. The Bills have been bad for a decade and still counting. Any fair-minded person will acknowlege that the team is years away from respectability. In other words, it is again going to be nearly another GENERATION of mediocrity. Ralph Wilson is nearly 92 years old. He is physically and mentally very frail. That is understandable; that is part of the life cycle. Ralph's record as an owner is already well established. It represents systemic mediocrity. JW, you have this reluctance to hold the most important and influential person in the organization accountable for its performance. I don't have that reluctance. If you want to tip toe around what is obvious to most people that is your prerogative. The Bills are what they are because the owner is who he is. good god, stop inferring. i'm not tip or toeing. i respect the man. jw
JohnC Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 good god, stop inferring. i'm not tip or toeing. i respect the man. jw As an owner I don't. I believe in accountability.
Delete This Account Posted August 2, 2010 Posted August 2, 2010 As an owner I don't. I believe in accountability. so you're a Patriots' fan, then, are you. jw
JohnC Posted August 3, 2010 Posted August 3, 2010 so you're a Patriots' fan, then, are you. jw I'm missing your point? I am a Bills' fan. An abused fan. With respect to the Patriots there is no doubt that they have better ownership, coachng staff and front office. Comparing the two organizations is like comparing a Lamborgini to a used and battered Yugo.
Buffalonian-at-Heart Posted August 3, 2010 Author Posted August 3, 2010 I'm missing your point? I am a Bills' fan. An abused fan. With respect to the Patriots there is no doubt that they have better ownership, coachng staff and front office. Comparing the two organizations is like comparing a Lamborgini to a used and battered Yugo. I disagree. Some teams get lucky and get their franchise QB and the others are still trying.
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