Ralph isn't cheap!

[The_Philster]

Good post, if you wanted to get the two camps arguing.

 

Bad post, because it is meaningless. The point is... many of the fans are fed up with 50 years of local product which hasn't been very entertaining for most of that time: especially the last decade. We can argue until we are blue in the face about which of Ralph's issues are at fault, but the only important fact is that he has been a poor owner of a pro football team.

 

His track record appears to show that he never realized that to be successful in this league, you pay the "best football people" what they are worth, then stay out of their way and count the profits. He had superior football people on his staff and dumped them for crossing swords with him (Polian, Butler, Phillips, etc.). Perhaps his "cheapness" was focused on management and elite players, because he didn't understand their worth in helping a team become/keep being a winner. The average player salary and profit does not address that.

 

But in any case, he has not been fair to the people who have given him all that money and now many of them have had enough.

If it makes you feel better, change "cheap" to "inept."

Polian instigated fights with other people in the front office....if you're gonna blast Ralph for doing what any boss would have done, I suggest you man up and try doing what Polian did and see if you keep your job. If you're not man enough to do it, you know you're wrong on this issue.

Butler had plans to leave no matter what...his wife wanted to leave Buffalo...he didn't want to be a real GM...just wanted to be head of scouting with the GM title. Nix has probably handled more GM duties outside of scouting than Butler did in his entire time as a Bills GM.

Phillips was insubordinate and refused to fire his gay lover Ronnie Jones who coached the worst special teams unit in Bills history...he essentially quit

 

If one wants to blast Ralph for getting more involved in personnel decisions than he should, that's fine and honest.

But blasting him about being cheap is ignorant and dishonest because he's been anything but since the mid-80s...and blasting him for firing people and ignoring why he did it is dishonest as well....and dishonesty is the most disgusting character trait a person can have, IMO.

[Doc]

Let me connect the dots for you slowly then.

 

You laid all the credit for the salary cap situation at the feet of John Butler, even going so far as to repeatedly state that A.J. Smith was "the real brains" as some sort of posthumous coup de grace. In other words, you are stating that John Butler should not have allowed the player contracts that happened while he was in charge of the football operation. The natural consequence of not making those contracts would obviously be that players would not have been signed, they would not play for the Bills, they would have gone elsewhere and earlier. Slowly: the only way one doesn't pay big contracts to star players in their prime is to get rid of the star players. Further, your argument dismisses the obvious; John Butler had bosses. It's splitting hairs to claim "it was all that idiot Butler's idea" but apparently you can't see that either.

 

Your defense of Ralph Wilson is as predictable as it is unflagging.

As is your incessant schoolgirl-like whining about him and the Bills. Yet you keep on watching, not to mention posting on a message board. Connect those points slowly.

[thewildrabbit]

The owner primarily considers the franchise as a business venture. That has been long evident. He has owned the franchise for half a century. When there is a conflict between the football side of the operation and the financial side of the operation everyone knows which side of the aisle he is going to be on. Just ask Bill Polian.

 

 

 

His mindset has long been established; profitability trumps performance on the field. There is nothing new about that approach. The owner of the Clippers in the NBA, Sterling, has the same perspective. His team is reknowned for its historical ineptitude, yet it is still very profitable. The owner of the Pirates in baseball has a systemically losing team and still the owner finds it very profitable. The owner of the Pirates has a very slick business model going on. When the wealthy teams share some of its revenues with the smaller markets the owner takes a chunk of that dedicated money and buys down his debt. So when he ineveitably sells he will have greater equity and make more on the sale.

 

 

 

Ralph Wilson had the scenario you described. The GM was Polian. He was an architect of a team which went to the SB four consecutive years. When Polian clashed with Litton, Ralph's finacial representative, it got to the point one of them had to go. Of course, the owner sided with his finance man over his football man, a certain GM Hall of Famer.

 

 

 

 

 

The owner never seriously considered Marty for the simple reason that Shottzy likes to have near total control of the football operation. The owner would never allow that. Shottenheimer did a terrific job in turning the Redskins around in only one year. The owner, Snyder, let him go because Marty was not receptive to the owner's interfernce. The boss told him to take a hike. Marty is a headstrong person who got involved with another headstrong person in the Chargers' GM AJ Smith. Although Marty did a good job as a HC he was constantly engaged in conflicts with the GM. Ultimately the owner of the Chargers, Spanos, realized that one of them had to go. Marty was dispateched.

Ralph Wilson is very old. Even though he is getting physically and mentally frail he is no fool. Marty is Marty. The owner is not going to tolerate having a challenging Marty work for him.

Yea...

 

I think Marty got the shaft after one season with the Redskins as HC because Snyder the owner couldn't wait to hire Steve Spurrier, which is funny because that experiment was a total failure.

 

To the bolded part.

 

The problem with Marty and the Chargers was all about GM A.J.Smith, who has shown that he has trouble getting along with lots of other people if they don't see things his way.

Smith didn't like the idea of Marty hiring his son as the Chargers OC,which as it turns out would not have been a bad thing considering the Jets beat the Chargers in the playoffs with Marty's son as OC of the Jets. Kind of Ironic huh...

[BillsVet]

As is your incessant schoolgirl-like whining about him and the Bills. Yet you keep on watching, not to mention posting on a message board. Connect those points slowly.

 

You're the TBD subject matter expert on revisionist history, arguing from a negative premise, and blaming those no longer with the team. How convenient for you that your opinions continue to be spot-on.

 

That owner you so vehemently defend remains absolutely responsible for this mess, not Butler, not TD, not Marv, and certainly not Mr. Smithers. This being the case, perhaps you might humble yourself and admit the owner is incapable of owning a successful NFL team without his vaunted, "luck." But that would be impossible for your omniscience.

 

Besides, it's a message board, and we're all losers for being here. Your above self-righteous statement stands out for the sheer hypocrisy that it demonstrates. I suppose someone will chime in (predictably) that A) I don't play in the NFL so my opinion is worthless or B) this is only a message board or C) I'm not as successful as RW so I'm a loser. That's all fans like you have left when you criticize people who are ultimately proven as correct. See Jauron, Dick.

[Doc]

You're the TBD subject matter expert on revisionist history, arguing from a negative premise, and blaming those no longer with the team. How convenient for you that your opinions continue to be spot-on.

 

That owner you so vehemently defend remains absolutely responsible for this mess, not Butler, not TD, not Marv, and certainly not Mr. Smithers. This being the case, perhaps you might humble yourself and admit the owner is incapable of owning a successful NFL team without his vaunted, "luck." But that would be impossible for your omniscience.

 

Besides, it's a message board, and we're all losers for being here. Your above self-righteous statement stands out for the sheer hypocrisy that it demonstrates. I suppose someone will chime in (predictably) that A) I don't play in the NFL so my opinion is worthless or B) this is only a message board or C) I'm not as successful as RW so I'm a loser. That's all fans like you have left when you criticize people who are ultimately proven as correct. See Jauron, Dick.

It's funny how people blame Ralph for meddling too much, and then blame him for NOT meddling enough when Butler was mismanaging the cap, or TD was failing. That's true hypocrisy. But not unexpected.

 

As for Butler, at best he was involved in 2 drafts/off-seasons with the Chargers, so giving him credit for their success is pretty funny. Perhaps if he'd been with them for 5 years, one could make the argument that it was him and not AJ Smith, but that's not how history played-out.

 

Again, Ralph hires the people to run the team. Butler was the natural successor to Polian, being that he was his right hand man. TD was credited with rebuilding the Steelers. Marv/Brandon was a mistake. But there are a lot of other factors at work, like Buffalo being at the bottom of people's list as a place to pbelay. Hell how many posters here grew up there and left, for whatever reason?

 

As for being losers for being here, to me it's a diversion. If you are so miserable by how things have gone that you hate someone or something, you should leave. No one is putting a gun to your head saying you need to follow the team. Wishing that things were different will get you about as far as wishing your childhood was different, or blaming your parents that they didn't do enough to make you more successful.

[birdog1960]

Ralph Wilson has accomplished more in his life then anyone on this board could even dream of... much less match In age, wealth, and as owner of one of only 32 NFL teams in the world. To call this man a loser simply reflects that same name back at the person stating it.

 

The problem with the Buffalo Bills as I see it is that RW only takes steps when the fans stop buying seats. It took an entire decade of losing to the Miami Dolphins. yea that's right...the Bills didn't beat the Dolphins for ten straight years, the entire decade of the 70's was lost before the owner made a strong coaching hire in Chuck Knox. The only reason he took those steps is because the stadium seats were no longer filled.

 

Those back to back 2-14 seasons, It was a sad time for Bills fans to see the stadium half filled at home games and many sitting there with bags on their heads, which finally prompted Ralph Wilson to make coaching changes.

If this season goes as bad as many expect (and i sincerely hope we're wrong), the bags should be traded for Mr Burns masks. shoulda been done at the HOF ring ceremony but better late than never...

[BillsfaninFl]

Polian instigated fights with other people in the front office....if you're gonna blast Ralph for doing what any boss would have done, I suggest you man up and try doing what Polian did and see if you keep your job. If you're not man enough to do it, you know you're wrong on this issue.

Butler had plans to leave no matter what...his wife wanted to leave Buffalo...he didn't want to be a real GM...just wanted to be head of scouting with the GM title. Nix has probably handled more GM duties outside of scouting than Butler did in his entire time as a Bills GM.

Phillips was insubordinate and refused to fire his gay lover Ronnie Jones who coached the worst special teams unit in Bills history...he essentially quit

 

If one wants to blast Ralph for getting more involved in personnel decisions than he should, that's fine and honest.

But blasting him about being cheap is ignorant and dishonest because he's been anything but since the mid-80s...and blasting him for firing people and ignoring why he did it is dishonest as well....and dishonesty is the most disgusting character trait a person can have, IMO.

 

You talk about honesty while telling us what people were thinking. Hmmm... Are you a psychic? A fly on the wall? Physician, heal thyself.

[thewildrabbit]

Polian instigated fights with other people in the front office....if you're gonna blast Ralph for doing what any boss would have done, I suggest you man up and try doing what Polian did and see if you keep your job. If you're not man enough to do it, you know you're wrong on this issue.

Butler had plans to leave no matter what...his wife wanted to leave Buffalo...he didn't want to be a real GM...just wanted to be head of scouting with the GM title. Nix has probably handled more GM duties outside of scouting than Butler did in his entire time as a Bills GM.

Phillips was insubordinate and refused to fire his gay lover Ronnie Jones who coached the worst special teams unit in Bills history...he essentially quit

 

If one wants to blast Ralph for getting more involved in personnel decisions than he should, that's fine and honest.

But blasting him about being cheap is ignorant and dishonest because he's been anything but since the mid-80s...and blasting him for firing people and ignoring why he did it is dishonest as well....and dishonesty is the most disgusting character trait a person can have, IMO.

 

Where do you guys get this stuff...I have never read anything about Butler not wanting to be a GM, more then likely he was tired of working for an owner that he would need to fight with to bring in top talent, or fight with to keep top talent on the team.

 

John Butler was very much under paid and he knew it, he refused to sign a new contract and preferred to test the open market for his services. Ralph Wilson got mad that Butler wouldn't sign and fired him in December before the season had even ended.

 

 

I provided these links in an eariler post in this thread

 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...80678/20001219/

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/12/19/...ain258412.shtml

 

Kinda odd that Bill Polian could not only get along as GM with Jim Irsay the owner of the Colts for 10+ years, but he was promoted to president and hired his son to be GM. I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't need to fight with the owner of the Colts to bring in top talent, or put a new scoreboard in the stadium.

[JohnC]

Yea...

 

I think Marty got the shaft after one season with the Redskins as HC because Snyder the owner couldn't wait to hire Steve Spurrier, which is funny because that experiment was a total failure.

 

To the bolded part.

 

The problem with Marty and the Chargers was all about GM A.J.Smith, who has shown that he has trouble getting along with lots of other people if they don't see things his way.

Smith didn't like the idea of Marty hiring his son as the Chargers OC,which as it turns out would not have been a bad thing considering the Jets beat the Chargers in the playoffs with Marty's son as OC of the Jets. Kind of Ironic huh...

 

You can't fairly only blame AJ Smith in his conflict with Marty. Both of these individuals are very strong willed and stubborn. To put it simply, AJ Smith did not like Marty. When Marty tried to establish a truce Smith brushed him off. It got to the point where Marty couldn't even get in touch with Smith because Smith would not answer his calls. The owner saw that a reconciliation was impossible, so Marty was asked to leave.

 

AJ Smith then selected Norv Turner to take over for Marty. Although Turner didn't have the stellar regular season record that Shottzy had Turner did have a much better record in the playoffs.

 

You are accurate that Smith was very unhappy when Marty hired his son. From what I understand the Chargers had a policy of not hiring relatives. Marty worked around that rule. Smith was not happy about that development.

 

There is no doubt that AJ Smith has some nasty (hard nosed) personality traits. There is also no doubt that he knows how to find talent and build a football team. Sometimes being a nice person isn't as important as being competent at what you do. Marv Levy was a very nice person who as a GM or phantom GM was not too competent in that role.

[JohnC]

If this season goes as bad as many expect (and i sincerely hope we're wrong), the bags should be traded for Mr Burns masks. shoulda been done at the HOF ring ceremony but better late than never...

 

There was some concern from the organization that at the owner's HOF ring ceremony the fans or some fans would respond very negatively. As it turned out the fans were very respectful of this very old man and gave him a warm response.

 

I don't have much regard for this owner. However, I am very glad that the fans acted in a classy manner. It was the right thng to do.

[JohnC]

Where do you guys get this stuff...I have never read anything about Butler not wanting to be a GM, more then likely he was tired of working for an owner that he would need to fight with to bring in top talent, or fight with to keep top talent on the team.

 

John Butler was very much under paid and he knew it, he refused to sign a new contract and preferred to test the open market for his services. Ralph Wilson got mad that Butler wouldn't sign and fired him in December before the season had even ended.

 

The following link gives an excellent background on the Butler firing.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga...s_insider_1220/

[Sisyphean Bills]

As is your incessant schoolgirl-like whining about him and the Bills. Yet you keep on watching, not to mention posting on a message board. Connect those points slowly.

Ah. So, you are going with the personal attacks and name calling argument.

 

Check mate. My work is done.

[Doc]

Ah. So, you are going with the personal attacks and name calling argument.

 

Check mate. My work is done.

Well then, you lost when you said "Let me connect the dots for you slowly then." More hypocrisy, just like the "Ralph meddles too much but didn't meddle enough with Butler."

[The_Philster]

You talk about honesty while telling us what people were thinking. Hmmm... Are you a psychic? A fly on the wall? Physician, heal thyself.

where do I tell you what people are thinking? Butler's wife wanting to leave? Everyone paying attention to what was going on knew that...Butler wanting to stick with just the scouting parts of the job? That was documented at the time...there were plenty of aspects of being a GM that Butler pawned off on other people.

 

Where do you guys get this stuff...I have never read anything about Butler not wanting to be a GM,

whose fault is it that you didn't pay attention to everything that went on? Judging by the fact you seem to think Polian did nothing wrong and that Ralph is the anti-Christ, you likely ignored every fact that backed up Ralph's actions

Kinda odd that Bill Polian could not only get along as GM with Jim Irsay the owner of the Colts for 10+ years, but he was promoted to president and hired his son to be GM. I'd be willing to bet that he doesn't need to fight with the owner of the Colts to bring in top talent, or put a new scoreboard in the stadium.

couldn't be a case where he learned from his mistakes in Buffalo, could it? Nah...can't be...Saint Polian never was in the wrong

[K-9]

Ralph won't pay top dollar for a coach that's UNPROVEN. He gave top dollar to Saban the second time, Knox, Levy (after proving himself), and Jauron, although prematurely.

 

He broke the bank for TD, relinquished COMPLETE control to him for the only time in the history of the franchise, saw the clusterf*ck that it became and will NEVER do that again.

 

OK, that covers coaches, GMs, etc.

 

Here's what those calling RW cheap need to do. Research what team has had THE MOST HIGHLY PAID PLAYERS at their respective positions since the merger. I think you might be surprised.

 

Oh, and as far as letting good players go, that's not on RW. We can thank TD for getting rid of a certain Pro Bowl NT along with others. And anyone who thinks keeping Winfield and Clements would have put us over the top doesn't know the game. Good players to be sure. Both utterly expendable at the time. Neither worth what they ended up signing for although Winfield comes close. But again, he wasn't gonna get us to a SB. But it was RW's football people who made the choices to let them go. Should RW the meddler apologize for NOT meddling when his personnel people are the ones advising him on personnel moves? The subsequent need to draft CBs as a result? That's not on RW either. Oh, and Winfield and Clements both made it clear they were going to test the waters. Perhaps they would have re-signed with the Bills had the Bills matched. We'll never know. But I doubt it.

 

Peters leaving was all on him. He didn't want to be in Buffalo after feeling insulted. Good riddance. Yeah, it sucks to lose a great player at a vital position but not at the cost of keeping someone who wanted out.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[thewildrabbit]

where do I tell you what people are thinking? Butler's wife wanting to leave? Everyone paying attention to what was going on knew that...Butler wanting to stick with just the scouting parts of the job? That was documented at the time...there were plenty of aspects of being a GM that Butler pawned off on other people. Prove it!

 

whose fault is it that you didn't pay attention to everything that went on? Judging by the fact you seem to think Polian did nothing wrong and that Ralph is the anti-Christ, you likely ignored every fact that backed up Ralph's actions

 

couldn't be a case where he learned from his mistakes in Buffalo, could it? Nah...can't be...Saint Polian never was in the wrong

 

Learned from his mistakes? I can recall reading in the local papers about how Polian was always fighting with Ralph Wilson about upgrades for the team, like the new scoreboard. Polian telling RW that the in order to make money he needs to spend money on players, stadium upgrades and the fact that he was constantly fighting with Jeff Littmen is common knowledge, and one of the biggest reasons to why he left Buffalo.

 

Yea, Bill Polian sucks and Ralph Wilson rules, keep telling yourself that

Well enough of your BS, how about you provide a link that has proof of what your talking about, otherwise your just spewing crap around based on your opinion of how you think things happened in the past.

[thewildrabbit]

The following link gives an excellent background on the Butler firing.

 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_ga...s_insider_1220/

 

Dunno why you quote me and then reinforce the points I've made, but ok..

 

Here is a part of the story linked above:

 

But the facts are these: Wilson's contract offers weren't competitive. Despite being one of the most accomplished GM's in the league, and a shrewd judge of personnel, Butler's current salary was about $500,000, putting him in the lower third among his NFL peers. Wilson's last offer was in the range of $1 million, or even a little less than that, a figure he said was the average of the eight highest-paid general managers in the league.

 

With Green Bay's Ron Wolf setting the bar in the league at $2.2 million per year, and Colts GM Bill Polian earning a reported $1.3 million, Butler, 54, was in line for more than $1 million per year. Butler wasn't looking to hold the small-market Bills hostage, but he didn't accept Wilson's contract offers because he didn't believe they were in the ballpark.

 

 

These facts are hard to argue over, but I'm certain some of you Ralph lovers will try...

[Doc]

Dunno why you quote me and then reinforce the points I've made, but ok..

 

Here is a part of the story linked above:

 

But the facts are these: Wilson's contract offers weren't competitive. Despite being one of the most accomplished GM's in the league, and a shrewd judge of personnel, Butler's current salary was about $500,000, putting him in the lower third among his NFL peers. Wilson's last offer was in the range of $1 million, or even a little less than that, a figure he said was the average of the eight highest-paid general managers in the league.

 

With Green Bay's Ron Wolf setting the bar in the league at $2.2 million per year, and Colts GM Bill Polian earning a reported $1.3 million, Butler, 54, was in line for more than $1 million per year. Butler wasn't looking to hold the small-market Bills hostage, but he didn't accept Wilson's contract offers because he didn't believe they were in the ballpark.

 

 

These facts are hard to argue over, but I'm certain some of you Ralph lovers will try...

You realize that Ralph's offer would have made Butler the 5th highest-paid GM, right?

[The_Philster]

Well enough of your BS, how about you provide a link that has proof of what your talking about, otherwise your just spewing crap around based on your opinion of how you think things happened in the past.

You want me to find links from 9 1/2 years ago all because YOU didn't pay attention to the facts? Not opinions.....look up the term in a dictionary...I didn't say what I thought might've happened...I told you what DID happen...the only speculation I made was that Polian learned from his mistakes.

I never said anything remotely resembling "Bill Polian sucks and Ralph Wilson rules" ...I even mentioned that Ralph gets too involved in some stuff sometimes...point is, Polian started some fights and the fact that he was known for having a bad temper supports those facts...I have a very low tolerance for dishonest people....and only a lowlife coward of a liar falsely accuses someone of saying something they never said from behind a keyboard

Welcome to the ignore list...I don't deal with dishonest little cowards

[JohnC]

Dunno why you quote me and then reinforce the points I've made, but ok..

 

On those points I agreed with you. Simple as that.

 

These facts are hard to argue over, but I'm certain some of you Ralph lovers will try...

 

Ralph Wilson has been an owner for half a century. His record is well established. For the RW afficionados he gets credit for the few periods when the the team has been successful and for the majority of the time when the team has been a failure it is the fault of everyone else but the baron owner.

 

The true believers want to selectively apply the concept of accountability. They never run out of excuses.