BP could be investigated for their role in the release

[Rob's House]

Are you really that naive? You don't think BP could have pressured people in government saying that they are on the verge of a huge contract with Libya and part of the deal is that they need to get that dude back to Libya? Yeah, governments never glad hand business'.

 

I thought your whole argument for big government is that is was the pure and clean watchdog to keep evil business in check. If business can buy and sell government doesn't that f up your plan?

[Chef Jim]

What's your solution to keeping things like that from happening?

 

You can't. See I don't live in the utopia of rainbow farting unicorns. But you folks thinking that the government is going to protect us from these things happening are crazy.

[Steely Dan]

Rfeynman is dead on about Enron manipulation for theft of the California energy grid - there are tapes of Enron traders calling power plant operators and telling them when and for how long to have shut downs.

 

 

 

 

 

GG I hope this isn't your standard for posting because then this place would be nothing but DC Tom posts on WW2

 

 

 

You mean the government officials that Big Oil has bought up in all the governments?

 

 

 

Jail sentences seem to be the tool most often used to deter criminal behavior

 

 

As to the part about how well deregulation worked for CA, it begs the question, How well has regulation worked for CA?

 

I would think a lot better than deregulation but that's JMO. We know that deregulation has made it possible for an entire state to be ripped off. I don't think regulation has led to that.

 

 

Louisiana?

 

Steely, Enron bad, mmmkay? Way to ask a challenging question. What's next? "Do you guys support the troops? Do you believe little children should be sold for sex?"

 

Typical liberal. Spending all day asking ridiculous rhetorical questions on the outside chance you get one conservative dolt to say something stupid so you can hold the scalp up to the rest of your Oompa Loompa brethren to feel better about your ridiculous ideas.

 

You know what you should do? Send your minions out in the world with cellphones in hopes of catching a conservative saying something controversial, and then create a website where you can all post your video clips so they can be used during the mid-term election campaigns. That would be awesome.

 

Can you answer that in a non sarcastic way or are you incapable of admitting mistakes. As for the rest of your idiotic diatribe you can replace liberal with conservative and make the same point.

 

 

Why did you used to go by a euphemism for a dildo?

 

Pfft. Man your funny. I ask about something tame and you turn it around into a question about a dildo when it's obvious it was a name for a band. Why don't you ask Walter Becker and Donald Fagan that question. Do you have anything to contribute more than insults, ever?

 

 

I thought your whole argument for big government is that is was the pure and clean watchdog to keep evil business in check. If business can buy and sell government doesn't that f up your plan?

 

Entire governments are not bought. Individuals in governments can be bought. By putting regulations in place there is a consequence to violating those regulations. If an industry is deregulated then a lot of unethical and immoral things are done without consequence.

 

 

You can't. See I don't live in the utopia of rainbow farting unicorns. But you folks thinking that the government is going to protect us from these things happening are crazy.

 

So is it your belief that there are no laws that deter anything? To a certain extent I'd agree with you if that's your opinion. However, as I stated above regulations/laws make consequences for actions that are detrimental to society.

[GG]

No it's based on this.

 

.....

 

So hopefully GG you just learned something. (I'm basing that on your question to me.) I know you'll never admit it because you don't have the balls to do so but I suspect you just did. I hope nobody here who didn't know about this is giving investment advice to anyone. Especially if they get money from them for it.

 

...

 

Did deregulation work for the people of California?

 

You people should look in the mirror before you start calling people idiots.

 

I guess I could have saved you some time by saying beforehand to spare the Enron trader tapes. As discussed ad nauseum on these pages, all the tapes showed was the crass behavior on the trading floors, which shouldn't be a shock to anyone remotely familiar with the milieu. But the illegality and manipulation of the energy supplies could be traced directly to only three guilty pleas by Enron traders, who only got probation for their offenses. Now, you would ask why in such a high profile case the traders only received probation and not jail sentences if their offense was truly in line with the public uproar. Hell, even Martha Stewart went to jail for a smaller offense.

 

Maybe you can do real research and read up on the actual reports of the cause of California's energy crisis. Calling it deregulation misses half the mark, because California deregulated the supply, but it maintained regulated demand by not allowing PGE the ability to alter pricing based on supply. All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

So while you're getting all huffy because there are tape recordings of ill mannered language, you completely ignore the cluster of regulations that California's government put in that totally screwed its citizenry. File another notch in the case of unintended consequences of motherment.

 

Maybe one day you'll buy a clue.

[Steely Dan]

I guess I could have saved you some time by saying beforehand to spare the Enron trader tapes. As discussed ad nauseum on these pages, all the tapes showed was the crass behavior on the trading floors, which shouldn't be a shock to anyone remotely familiar with the milieu. But the illegality and manipulation of the energy supplies could be traced directly to only three guilty pleas by Enron traders, who only got probation for their offenses. Now, you would ask why in such a high profile case the traders only received probation and not jail sentences if their offense was truly in line with the public uproar. Hell, even Martha Stewart went to jail for a smaller offense.

 

Maybe you can do real research and read up on the actual reports of the cause of California's energy crisis. Calling it deregulation misses half the mark, because California deregulated the supply, but it maintained regulated demand by not allowing PGE the ability to alter pricing based on supply. All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

So while you're getting all huffy because there are tape recordings of ill mannered language, you completely ignore the cluster of regulations that California's government put in that totally screwed its citizenry. File another notch in the case of unintended consequences of motherment.

 

Maybe one day you'll buy a clue.

 

 

Are you seriously arguing that it's their job to break the law? Maybe someday will you not only buy a clue but you'll buy a heart too.

[GG]

Are you seriously arguing that it's their job to break the law? Maybe someday will you not only buy a clue but you'll buy a heart too.

 

Are you seriously arguing your inability to comprehend what you read?

 

How does this "exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit" equate to breaking the law?

[Steely Dan]

Are you seriously arguing your inability to comprehend what you read?

 

How does this "exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit" equate to breaking the law?

 

 

Do you have the ability to read what you write?

 

All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

And these guys went to jail. Hence the interpretation that it's breaking the law. So when people are convicted of breaking the law did they break the law. (obviously that's not true in every case I'm speaking in general terms.)

[Rob's House]

I would think a lot better than deregulation but that's JMO. We know that deregulation has made it possible for an entire state to be ripped off. I don't think regulation has led to that.

 

To be fair, CA is one of the most highly regulated states in the Union and is the most financially strapped. Cherry picking specific regulations without regard to other regulations that may impact the situation can be misleading. For example, if CA didn't have strict regulations that prevent new power plants from being built they likely wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

 

Entire governments are not bought. Individuals in governments can be bought. By putting regulations in place there is a consequence to violating those regulations. If an industry is deregulated then a lot of unethical and immoral things are done without consequence.

 

It doesn't take the purchasing of an entire government to get your corrupt hands in the works. They work on the buddy system even across party lines. That's how they get so damn much pork through. Further, and more importantly, you can have clear laws to dictate the rules by which companies must abide. Allowing government to dictate ethics and morality is dangerous territory.

[GG]

Do you have the ability to read what you write?

 

All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

And these guys went to jail. Hence the interpretation that it's breaking the law. So when people are convicted of breaking the law did they break the law. (obviously that's not true in every case I'm speaking in general terms.)

 

Read again, the traders DID NOT go to jail.

 

Read again, if the crimes were as clear and shut, they would have gone to jail. Shoot, a mid level accountant at Dynergy got 20 yrs for falsifying books. Rigases got more time for smaller crimes. You would imagine that in that atmosphere, the traders would see serious jail time if there was a real case against them. But 2 yrs probation & $4k in fines doesn't come close.

 

Read, comprehend.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Steely Dan]

To be fair, CA is one of the most highly regulated states in the Union and is the most financially strapped. Cherry picking specific regulations without regard to other regulations that may impact the situation can be misleading. For example, if CA didn't have strict regulations that prevent new power plants from being built they likely wouldn't have been in that position in the first place.

 

That's not true. If you read the articles you'd see that Enron worked with power plants to shut down or run at half power at a time when all power companies were supposed to be operating at 100% full power. (the part about them being ordered to run at full power may come from another article) It was not a question of the inability of the power plants to supply the power. It was an issue with them withholding power. The power requirements were available, they weren't being given out in order to raise contract prices. As far as I know there isn't a problem with the power issues now.

[Steely Dan]

Read again, the traders DID NOT go to jail.

 

Read again, if the crimes were as clear and shut, they would have gone to jail. Shoot, a mid level accountant at Dynergy got 20 yrs for falsifying books. Rigases got more time for smaller crimes. You would imagine that in that atmosphere, the traders would see serious jail time if there was a real case against them. But 2 yrs probation & $4k in fines doesn't come close.

 

Read, comprehend.

 

Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

Forgive me, I should have used the word convicted. Unfortunately the amount of punishment has nothing to do with severity of crime too often. Somebody posted an article about a guy who got a minimal punishment for a very serious DUI offense. Obviously their crime affected an entire state. So the fact is they were convicted of a crime and therefore you are arguing that part of their jobs is to commit crimes.

[Dave_In_Norfolk]

I guess I could have saved you some time by saying beforehand to spare the Enron trader tapes. As discussed ad nauseum on these pages, all the tapes showed was the crass behavior on the trading floors, which shouldn't be a shock to anyone remotely familiar with the milieu. But the illegality and manipulation of the energy supplies could be traced directly to only three guilty pleas by Enron traders, who only got probation for their offenses. Now, you would ask why in such a high profile case the traders only received probation and not jail sentences if their offense was truly in line with the public uproar. Hell, even Martha Stewart went to jail for a smaller offense.

 

Maybe you can do real research and read up on the actual reports of the cause of California's energy crisis. Calling it deregulation misses half the mark, because California deregulated the supply, but it maintained regulated demand by not allowing PGE the ability to alter pricing based on supply. All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

So while you're getting all huffy because there are tape recordings of ill mannered language, you completely ignore the cluster of regulations that California's government put in that totally screwed its citizenry. File another notch in the case of unintended consequences of motherment.

 

Maybe one day you'll buy a clue.

This is an awesome post! Even tops the Obama was shaking down BP nonesense you posted. So, you have personally read the reports--the actual reports!!!--of the energy crisis, and surprise surprise, its all the governments fault for those rolling blackouts that happened back when Enron was in control out there. Bad government!

 

And you think someone else needs to get a clue?

[DC Tom]

Do you have the ability to read what you write?

 

All Enron and other traders did was what comes naturally to cold-hearted traders - exploit market inefficiencies and regulatory cluster !@#$ to make a profit (hint: it's part of their job description)

 

And these guys went to jail. Hence the interpretation that it's breaking the law. So when people are convicted of breaking the law did they break the law. (obviously that's not true in every case I'm speaking in general terms.)

 

And what were their convictions for?

 

 

Because I'm pretty sure they weren't convicted for "causing the CA energy crisis". A conviction requires a specific act of breaking a written law, not just a general blanket condemnation of crass behavior.

[....lybob]

Are you seriously arguing that it's their job to break the law? Maybe someday will you not only buy a clue but you'll buy a heart too.

 

Give it up Rfeynman it fruitless to argue with someone who thinks it's ok to steal as long as you do it in a clever manner- welcome to the world where Human decency is a character flaw, and trust is a chink in the armor to be exploited.

[Steely Dan]

And what were their convictions for?

 

 

Because I'm pretty sure they weren't convicted for "causing the CA energy crisis". A conviction requires a specific act of breaking a written law, not just a general blanket condemnation of crass behavior.

 

I'll have to look up the specific laws they broke but thank you for making the argument for regulating industry. There need to be laws to hold the people who do these things accountable.

[Steely Dan]

Give it up Rfeynman it fruitless to argue with someone who thinks it's ok to steal as long as you do it in a clever manner- welcome to the world where Human decency is a character flaw, and trust is a chink in the armor to be exploited.

 

Too true. I have, mostly, stopped with this type of discussion but sometimes I have to call people out on them. I'm tired of taking he high road and letting people who are idiots call me an idiot. You're right though.

[Chef Jim]

I'll have to look up the specific laws they broke but thank you for making the argument for regulating industry. There need to be laws to hold the people who do these things accountable.

 

How would any law/regulation prevent these people from collusion and conspiracy? **** happens, there are bad people you can't legislate morality.

[Steely Dan]

How would any law/regulation prevent these people from collusion and conspiracy? **** happens, there are bad people you can't legislate morality.

 

Did you even read anything I've written? I said there needs to be laws in order to hold people who break the law accountable. Laws don't stop people from stealing, killing, beating, child molesting and other things but they are necessary to hold those who do those things accountable and to remove them from society. Do you believe all laws should be rescinded because they never stop crimes from happening?

[DC Tom]

I'll have to look up the specific laws they broke but thank you for making the argument for regulating industry. There need to be laws to hold the people who do these things accountable.

 

Who do WHAT things? That's kind of the whole crux of this ridiculous argument you're having: you haven't bothered to define what is, is not, and should or shouldn't be illegal. You're making a HUGE jump to assuming that everything Ernon did w/r/t California's electricity grid was illegal based on the convictions of a handful of traders on charges you don't even know (they could have simply been convicted of falsifying their own trading records, for example).

 

 

And there is a regulatory structure in place; no one's arguing for complete deregulation (at least, no one with half a brain). I am willing to grant, however, that the regulations w/r/t Enron's energy trading markets were weak as hell, since Enron invented the market and wouldn't share any info on it because it was a "proprietary trade secret".

[Chef Jim]

Did you even read anything I've written? I said there needs to be laws in order to hold people who break the law accountable. Laws don't stop people from stealing, killing, beating, child molesting and other things but they are necessary to hold those who do those things accountable and to remove them from society. Do you believe all laws should be rescinded because they never stop crimes from happening?

 

There are already laws in place to prevent these things. I'm asking what additional laws would your recommend? I drives me nuts when things like this happen you scream for more laws and regulations. Let's start with enforced the ones on the books first.