When the Wheels Came off in 2009

[Hplarrm]

I love Marv Levy as much as anyone else here...but his hiring as GM was the ulitimate wheel falling off the wagon, and the Bills still haven't recovered. I realize, he was more of a figurehead than an actual GM, but he was the impetus behind some horrid drafts, and a horrid head coach hiring. In all fairness to him, I think he knew he was in over his head...so, he stepped down...the Bills didn't really replace him, and the franchise, in effect, went three years without a "football management" type , running the show.

 

The hiring of Marv strikes me as far more a symptom than a cause of the problems as I think quite clearly it was not the first wheel falling off but the third or perhaps fourth wheel,

 

I think there can be a fairly straight line traced to:

 

A. Its tough to label Marv's hiring as being the first wheel to come off as this would mean either not labeling the hiring of TD as a previous bad move or somehow endorsing the firing of TD as a correct move but Marv as a poor replacement.

 

B. Actually, I thought the hire of TD was actually a pretty astute move because the wheels actually were clearly falling off in the miserable relationship and reading of his Butler's desires which Mr. Ralph did all on his own as the owner.

 

C. The mishandling of the Butler employment by Mr. Ralph really only came to fruition after Mr. Ralph exercised his right as an owner and meddled in the decision to make a handshake deal only he could make as the owner to reward Jimbo in his next contract which never happened. Mr. Ralph totally blew the football judgment of how much Jimbo had left and also totally abused the concept of the salary cap (I think this is why some voters delayed his entry in to the HOF). The QB debacles began right here and Mr. Ralph seemed to have his hands all over a series of failed decisions from stretching to draft and start TC, trading and signing Hobert, signing RJ before he showed his injury proneness, and the overall mismangement of this position.

 

D. Actually if one wants to identify a true "first" cause it was likely decision by Mr. Ralph to can Polian who to a great degree built the winning Bills.

 

I did not find Marv's performance disappointing at all as I really had few expectations that this octogenarian was gonna be anything but a placeholder after several wheels has already fallen off mostly with Mr. Ralph's handprints all over them.

 

Did you really have some high expectations of Marv and do you disagree that there were a series of clear grievous mistakes made before Marv was even hired?

[Thurman#1]

My take is the team went into the tank after Marv Levy retired as GM and wasn't replaced, it gave that moron Jauon more power then he could handle. Everything Marv tried to do to get the Bills to respectability that dufas Jauron went and dismantled.

 

Case in point, when NFL veteran O line coach of 28 years Jim McNally retires, Jauron promotes the assistant under him, and the O line went down hill from there. No concussions the entire time McNally was O line coach, plus the players seemed to lack desire to play for Kugler. The O line coaching just wasn't the same and a good HC would have recognized that fact right away and made a change.

 

A decent GM might have been able to smooth over the problems with Jason Peters instead of trading away the only pro bowler on the line.

 

Not to mention a GM would not have allowed Jauron to cut Dockery at all, or Walker two weeks before the season starts because he couldn't keep up with the "no huddle" offense that they scraped a few weeks later.

 

Steve Fairchild was brought in to implement a high powered passing offense in the mold of the 'greatest show on turf, instead he stunk it up. So when he quit Jauron replaced him with the QB coach who had no business becoming an OC, he should have hired an experienced NFL offensive coordinator instead. I just don't understand this promotion at all, If the guy above him stunk it up then why promote someone to run the exact same offense...

 

Turk Schonert needed to go after that horrifically bad play call in the Jets game in 08, Jauron should have either fired him after that game or at the end of the season, instead of waiting until two weeks before the 09 season starts, simply moronic.

 

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that Jauron was the biggest problem with this team the last 4 years, bad draft choices, bad coaching hires, bad schemes, bad game plans, mostly bad decisions all around.

 

The thing that bothers me is... nobody above Jauron had the football acumen to understand the problems he was incurring to the team, its as if he had a free reign to do what he pleased with nobody to answer to after Marv stepped down.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what you said, but Kugler did a terrific job at OL coach.

 

It's not some wild accident that when we let him go, the Steelers swept in and signed him. They're one of the best organizations in football and they wanted Kugler.

 

I definitely agree about the problems caused by not replacing Marv.

[BillsFanInLV]

I don't.

 

What exactly has he done to warrant appreciation and respect?

 

 

I hope your ninth post isn't as stupid as your eighth was.

[....lybob]

What I don't understand is why get T.O. if you're going to blow the OL apart- why not see if Steve Johnson had anything to offer, of course I've had hundreds of questions like this for the Bills over the last 10 years.

[Buftex]

Did you really have some high expectations of Marv and do you disagree that there were a series of clear grievous mistakes made before Marv was even hired?

 

 

No...I thought the Levy hiring, from day one, was a bad mistake. I am one of the few who think that the Bills would be in much better shape, right now, had they kept Tom Donohoe. But, that is something we will never know...I just think they were much closer to being a perennial playoff contender, than they have been since. TD made his mistakes, but he wasn't afraid to make moves, and knew how the league worked.

 

There have been a ton of mistakes made in the history of this franchise (in all franchises), but previous mistakes (Ralph's relationships with Butler, Polian, Chuck Knox...hiring Tom Donohoe if you must) were all done with some degree of sound football logic... the Levy hiring was the first true sign, to me, that all the good will, and respect that the franchise had gained in the late 80's and 90's, had officially been pissed away. Even under TD, the franchise still had an air of legitimacy around it.The Bills had officially come full circle, and were, once again, going to be perennial doormats.

 

Believe me when I say it, Marv Levy is one of the best things to happen to the Buffalo Bills...the right man, in the right place at the right time as a head coach. As a "GM", not so much.

[mpl6876]

No...I thought the Levy hiring, from day one, was a bad mistake. I am one of the few who think that the Bills would be in much better shape, right now, had they kept Tom Donohoe. But, that is something we will never know...I just think they were much closer to being a perennial playoff contender, than they have been since. TD made his mistakes, but he wasn't afraid to make moves, and knew how the league worked.

 

There have been a ton of mistakes made in the history of this franchise (in all franchises), but previous mistakes (Ralph's relationships with Butler, Polian, Chuck Knox...hiring Tom Donohoe if you must) were all done with some degree of sound football logic... the Levy hiring was the first true sign, to me, that all the good will, and respect that the franchise had gained in the late 80's and 90's, had officially been pissed away. Even under TD, the franchise still had an air of legitimacy around it.The Bills had officially come full circle, and were, once again, going to be perennial doormats.

 

Believe me when I say it, Marv Levy is one of the best things to happen to the Buffalo Bills...the right man, in the right place at the right time as a head coach. As a "GM", not so much.

 

Hard to argue with that.

[thewildrabbit]

I love Marv Levy as much as anyone else here...but his hiring as GM was the ulitimate wheel falling off the wagon, and the Bills still haven't recovered. I realize, he was more of a figurehead than an actual GM, but he was the impetus behind some horrid drafts, and a horrid head coach hiring. In all fairness to him, I think he knew he was in over his head...so, he stepped down...the Bills didn't really replace him, and the franchise, in effect, went three years without a "football management" type , running the show.

 

Yea I'm not defending the Marv Levy hire as GM, clearly it was a huge mistake and caused the franchise to be set back 4-5 years, It was after all Marv's decision to hire Jauron in the first place.

 

What I am bothered about is the why the owner didn't step up and make a bold hire, the NFL is comprised of 32 teams and only a handful are really successful at winning consistently. But then again it would cost some money to hire a real name GM / president, I'll bet Marv came cheap.

 

Would it really be so cost prohibitive to hire a consulting firm and have them headhunt a top GM, it amazes me that owners like the Fords with Matt Millen, Wilson with Marv Levy, and then Al Davis with multiple bad hires and bad decisions keep screwing themselves and their near billion dollar franchises.

[thewildrabbit]

What I don't understand is why get T.O. if you're going to blow the OL apart- why not see if Steve Johnson had anything to offer, of course I've had hundreds of questions like this for the Bills over the last 10 years.

Because that one move sold game tickets like crazy...

 

Turk Schonert had been stating in the local news that the Bills lacked a real threat opposite Lee Evans and adding another top WR would help open up the deep passing game. If they open up the deep passing game it also opens up the running game and short passing plays.

 

Something we will never know if it would have worked because the moron Jauron fired Schonert and cut Walker two weeks before the opener, which coupled with the fact that they traded away Jason peters and cut Dockery made the O line Swiss cheese, and thereby effectively crippled the entire reason for bringing in TO.

[Malazan]

The Levy move was a mistake and he was basically trying to help a friend (Ralph) get things under control. Levy himself often stated that is was temporary and he wasn't a 'real GM'. That there was a clue that thing were going to really fly off the handle.

 

The reason I'm on board with the current regime is it seems like the stop gap reactionary measures have been put on hold and 'football' decisions will be made again. They also seem less interested in trying to shortcut their way to a winning team.

[thewildrabbit]

I agree with most of what you said, but Kugler did a terrific job at OL coach.

 

It's not some wild accident that when we let him go, the Steelers swept in and signed him. They're one of the best organizations in football and they wanted Kugler.

 

I definitely agree about the problems caused by not replacing Marv.

Dunno how you can state that when the protections clearly were not as good as when Jim McNally was the O line coach. The O line did regress under Kugler, there is no question about it.

 

I'm not saying Kugler was totally crappy O line coach, he might have been better then he looked and the line might have played better had Jauron hired an experienced NFL OC to help him. But with both a rookie line coach and a rookie OC that offense and offensive line went downhill.

 

Lets face it, Jason Peters never played even close to the way he did when McNally was the coach for whatever reason, and Dockery and Walker also both regressed under Kugler and that is why they were both released.

 

McNally was running a zone blocking scheme when he was in Buffalo, now I've read that Chan Gailey wants to implement a zone blocking scheme in Buffalo. So something changed between McNally and Gailey if the Bills weren't still running a zone scheme.

 

I dunno, perhaps you see a "terrific" job from a line with so many injuries and player changes as last season would have turned any O line coaches hair gray, what a nightmare to deal with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On another note...the Eagles swept in and signed Jauron

[Adam]

My take is the team went into the tank after Marv Levy retired as GM and wasn't replaced, it gave that moron Jauon more power then he could handle. Everything Marv tried to do to get the Bills to respectability that dufas Jauron went and dismantled.

 

Case in point, when NFL veteran O line coach of 28 years Jim McNally retires, Jauron promotes the assistant under him, and the O line went down hill from there. No concussions the entire time McNally was O line coach, plus the players seemed to lack desire to play for Kugler. The O line coaching just wasn't the same and a good HC would have recognized that fact right away and made a change.

 

A decent GM might have been able to smooth over the problems with Jason Peters instead of trading away the only pro bowler on the line.

 

Not to mention a GM would not have allowed Jauron to cut Dockery at all, or Walker two weeks before the season starts because he couldn't keep up with the "no huddle" offense that they scraped a few weeks later.

 

Steve Fairchild was brought in to implement a high powered passing offense in the mold of the 'greatest show on turf, instead he stunk it up. So when he quit Jauron replaced him with the QB coach who had no business becoming an OC, he should have hired an experienced NFL offensive coordinator instead. I just don't understand this promotion at all, If the guy above him stunk it up then why promote someone to run the exact same offense...

 

Turk Schonert needed to go after that horrifically bad play call in the Jets game in 08, Jauron should have either fired him after that game or at the end of the season, instead of waiting until two weeks before the 09 season starts, simply moronic.

 

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that Jauron was the biggest problem with this team the last 4 years, bad draft choices, bad coaching hires, bad schemes, bad game plans, mostly bad decisions all around.

 

The thing that bothers me is... nobody above Jauron had the football acumen to understand the problems he was incurring to the team, its as if he had a free reign to do what he pleased with nobody to answer to after Marv stepped down.

You have all this insight as to who controls what at One Bills Drive? Really? Really? Thank you for sharing with us oh sharer of inisght, you truly pluck the fruit off the tree of wisdom.

 

Did Jauron have the power to fire Schonert when you think he should have? Don't know

Did Jauron not have the power to fire Schonert when you think he should have? Don't know

 

Was it Jauron's decision to get rid of all those OL's? Don't know

Was it not Jauron's decision to get rid of all those OL's? Don't know

 

I can tell you that if I had no offensive line, a young, undeveloped QB and a bad defense, I would go to a ball-control ground game to protect that QB, instead of an opened up offense. Sure, it might not work, but it would help keep games close and give you a chance.

 

Disasterous draft picks like Mike Williams, Marshawn Lynch, Aaron Maybin and Roscoe Parrish have killed us over the years

[Buftex]

You have all this insight as to who controls what at One Bills Drive? Really? Really? Thank you for sharing with us oh sharer of inight, you truly pluck the fruit off the tree of wisdom.

 

Did Jauron have the power to fire Schonert when you think he should have? Don't know

Did Jauron not have the power to fire Schonert when you think he should have? Don't know

 

Was it Jauron's decision to get rid of all those OL's? Don't know

Was it not Jauron's decision to get rid of all those OL's? Don't know

 

I can tell you that if I had no offensive line, a young, undeveloped QB and a bad defense, I would go to a ball-control ground game to protect that QB, instead of an opened up offense. Sure, it might not work, but it would help keep games close and give you a chance.

 

Disasterous draft picks like Mike Williams, Marshawn Lynch, Aaron Maybin and Roscoe Parrish have killed us over the years

 

 

So, what are you getting at?

So, what are you not getting at?

 

What are you trying to say?

What are you not trying to say?

[Adam]

So, what are you getting at?

So, what are you not getting at?

 

What are you trying to say?

What are you not trying to say?

We don't have a clue what really happens

[Bob in STL]

QUOTE (CodeMonkey @ Jul 12 2010, 12:56 PM) *

You sound like these guys are 10 years old and not adult professional athletes. This isn't fifth grade you know, they should all be able to be responsible for their own work ethic (or lack thereof).

 

 

I have been around athletics at every level for 20 years and it just doesn't work that way. Players do influence other players- they are human beings, even at the pro level

 

True. They may be adults professional athletes but let me add that these guys do not have the same mentality as players in past eras. The spoiling starts in high school and continues through college. By the time they are drafted most of them have a me-first attitude. It is rare to find players that are not in this mold. Free agency actually feeds this issue.

 

I have stated in various posts that this team is so used to losing that they expect it. This is something that TO noticed in the New England season opener.

 

We need to bring in (by draft or free agency) a few talented leaders that can't stand to lose, they must impose their will on the rest of the team. The Dockery's and Walker's are not the right kind of free agents to sign. Average players who take the money and run.

[PDaDdy]

the message was that the lazy, joke cracking, tv watching attitude and work ethic of Peters, Walker and Dockery would not be tolerated. i remember reading articles that had players talking about how funny those guys were, and how you could always rely on Peters/Dockery for a joke during drills. sounds like they were too busy socializing and being the class clowns.

 

frankly, with all the young talent the Bills added that year, Id rather get those 3 guys away from the rookies before they pick up any bad habits.

 

 

UH WRONG!

 

People need to quit their anti Peters campaign. Ya his lazy, joke cracking, tv watching attitude got him to THREE STRAIGHT PROBOWLS!!!! If you think a lazy, no talent half stepper makes it to 3 probowls you are a freaking moron. Some people hate him so much they actually try to say the probowl doesn't mean anything. "Sour grapes" from the haters. They don't send bums to the probowl. YOU CAN'T QUESTION THE RULER BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE THE MEASUREMENT!!!

 

WE screwed the pooch and let a 3 time probowl LT get away because the front office are cheap bastards and wanted Peters to continue to play on his RT salary. For those who have conveniently forgotten, the contract Peters signed that he was trying to get out of was signed when he was a RT before becoming a multiple probowl LT.

[PDaDdy]

QUOTE (CodeMonkey @ Jul 12 2010, 12:56 PM) *

You sound like these guys are 10 years old and not adult professional athletes. This isn't fifth grade you know, they should all be able to be responsible for their own work ethic (or lack thereof).

 

 

 

 

True. They may be adults professional athletes but let me add that these guys do not have the same mentality as players in past eras. The spoiling starts in high school and continues through college. By the time they are drafted most of them have a me-first attitude. It is rare to find players that are not in this mold. Free agency actually feeds this issue.

 

I have stated in various posts that this team is so used to losing that they expect it. This is something that TO noticed in the New England season opener.

 

We need to bring in (by draft or free agency) a few talented leaders that can't stand to lose, they must impose their will on the rest of the team. The Dockery's and Walker's are not the right kind of free agents to sign. Average players who take the money and run.

 

First off I think anyone that makes it into the NFL has a base level of desire and work ethic. Just as some players influence others around them, some players influence public opinion to the point where joe six pack who works his ass off at home thinks that all professional athletes are lazy and greedy. Simply not the case my friend.

 

I think the main reason why some people are disillusioned is that they forget that the NFL is FIRST AND FOREMOST A BUSINESS!!! This isn't pop warner. This isn't Friday Night Lights! This isn't The Replacements. These are highly talented specialists of which there are only a few thousand in the world. They deserve to be paid like it like any other employee who has risen to the absolute tip top of their profession.

 

Like all people with jobs, including myself, we want to get paid what we feel we are worth. If you are kicking ass at your job and perform at a high level you should be compensated more than your peers. If you went from cashier to manager but still make a cashiers salary YOU ARE A BALL-LESS IDIOT! Now imagine working as acting manager for 1, 2, 3 years while the owners promise that you will be taken care of when your contract runs out. Hog wash!

 

Dockery and Walker were journeyman lineman who were average players. This is TYPICAL of our front office. We will overpay for average talent but we will release star probowl players. That is the Buffalo way! SOOO....end result is we have a bunch of very well paid NON star average players. The only STARS we have are basically working under their rookie contracts and will leave Buffalo as soon as they can because they won't get paid what they are worth.

 

My hope for the future is that Nix and Gailey realize that this is a recipe for 7 - 9 mediocrity and won't continue to do things in this moronic manner!!!!

[Cynical]

My take is the team went into the tank after Marv Levy retired as GM and wasn't replaced, it gave that moron Jauon more power then he could handle. Everything Marv tried to do to get the Bills to respectability that dufas Jauron went and dismantled.

 

Case in point, when NFL veteran O line coach of 28 years Jim McNally retires, Jauron promotes the assistant under him, and the O line went down hill from there. No concussions the entire time McNally was O line coach, plus the players seemed to lack desire to play for Kugler. The O line coaching just wasn't the same and a good HC would have recognized that fact right away and made a change.

 

A decent GM might have been able to smooth over the problems with Jason Peters instead of trading away the only pro bowler on the line.

 

Not to mention a GM would not have allowed Jauron to cut Dockery at all, or Walker two weeks before the season starts because he couldn't keep up with the "no huddle" offense that they scraped a few weeks later.

 

Steve Fairchild was brought in to implement a high powered passing offense in the mold of the 'greatest show on turf, instead he stunk it up. So when he quit Jauron replaced him with the QB coach who had no business becoming an OC, he should have hired an experienced NFL offensive coordinator instead. I just don't understand this promotion at all, If the guy above him stunk it up then why promote someone to run the exact same offense...

 

Repeat after me:

 

CONTINUITY

 

Didn't want that new "franchise" QB Trentative Edwards to have to learn a whole new offense.

Might screw up his development.

[Cynical]

Yea I'm not defending the Marv Levy hire as GM, clearly it was a huge mistake and caused the franchise to be set back 4-5 years, It was after all Marv's decision to hire Jauron in the first place.

 

What I am bothered about is the why the owner didn't step up and make a bold hire, the NFL is comprised of 32 teams and only a handful are really successful at winning consistently. But then again it would cost some money to hire a real name GM / president, I'll bet Marv came cheap.

 

The logic behind this is astoundingly retarded, and it completely ignores the facts and events that happened prior to Marv's hiring.

 

But hey, let's go with Ralph's cheap, because that's about the only level of logic you seem to grasp, despite it being wrong.

 

Would it really be so cost prohibitive to hire a consulting firm and have them headhunt a top GM, it amazes me that owners like the Fords with Matt Millen, Wilson with Marv Levy, and then Al Davis with multiple bad hires and bad decisions keep screwing themselves and their near billion dollar franchises.

 

 

Can't wait for the new Bills GM to come from the depths of GM or GE.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Two key things to add here:

 

1. On the GM side, ever since Polian moved on, a good solution was not found. I thought too thought Donahoe seemed to be a decent candidate. At that point he Bills had gone through an incredible run of winning. Like Pats Fans today EVERYONE took success for granted. The Marv Scenario smelled funny but seemed like it might provide a return to glory. With no succession plan in place the whole idea crumbled. It always led back to the fact the Polian was really good and proved hard to replace.

 

 

2. Last season was brutal and disappointing. However it’s over and the culmination of that catastrophe led the team to a complete reconstruction, which although painful leaves the team in an arguably better position starting this year as opposed to last year and with a lot greater potential for growth into a successful franchise over the next few seasons.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The logic behind this is astoundingly retarded, and it completely ignores the facts and events that happened prior to Marv's hiring.

 

But hey, let's go with Ralph's cheap, because that's about the only level of logic you seem to grasp, despite it being wrong.

 

 

 

 

Can't wait for the new Bills GM to come from the depths of GM or GE.

 

GE produces some of the worlds top managment talent. That's not a bad idea...