Felser article on Gailey

[KRC]

Parcells is the GM in Miami and has been for two years.

 

Minor note: Parcells is Executive Vice-President of Football Operations. Jeff Ireland is the GM.

[R. Rich]

Minor note: Parcells is Executive Vice-President of Football Operations. Jeff Ireland is the GM.

 

Oh, and I 'spose Parcells told you that himself, did he? Some folks act like they really have met or spoken to these folks.

[KRC]

Oh, and I 'spose Parcells told you that himself, did he? Some folks act like they really have met or spoken to these folks.

 

[Sisyphean Bills]

I'll give you that Parcells isn't coaching the Dols and has turned around franchises, but the diminishing returns are noteworthy. And he wouldn't GM or coach the Bills in any case.

They were different situations, but all of the jobs were in high-profile markets and he was immensely successful and more successful on an overall scale in building multiple franchises than any other person in recent NFL history. And, if you consider the success of his proteges in the NFL, his shadow is just that much larger.

 

Your conclusion that there are "noteworthy diminishing returns", doesn't acknowledge that the situations, challenges, and time frames were different in each case. The fact that he took a terrible Jets team to the AFC Championship game in 3 years isn't so much a mark of "wow, he really regressed badly" as it is "wow, how the hell did he do that?!"

 

Sorry, but a Bill Parcells sort of overhaul is exactly what the Buffalo Bills need. Which is not to say that Parcells would've considered giving up his VP position to come in and clean things up. Nor does it mean that Nix/Gailey aren't getting back to basics.

[Doc]

They were different situations, but all of the jobs were in high-profile markets and he was immensely successful and more successful on an overall scale in building multiple franchises than any other person in recent NFL history. And, if you consider the success of his proteges in the NFL, he's shadow is just that much larger.

 

Your conclusion that there are "noteworthy diminishing returns", doesn't acknowledge that the situations, challenges, and time frames were different in each case. The fact that he took a terrible Jets team to the AFC Championship game in 3 years isn't so much a mark of "wow, he really regressed badly" as it is "wow, how the hell did he do that?!"

 

Sorry, but a Bill Parcells sort of overhaul is exactly what the Buffalo Bills need. Which is not to say that Parcells would've considered giving up his VP position to come in and clean things up. Nor does it mean that Nix/Gailey aren't getting back to basics.

Parcells had the 1st overall pick in the draft in 3 of the 5 gigs he's had (Pats in 1993, Jets in 1997, and Dols in 2008). Would you advocate the Bills tanking this season to get the 1st overall pick next year, to help in the overhaul effort?

 

As for the diminishing returns, forgetting all the other stuff, the fact of the matter is that there has been a steady decline in the success of his teams. That's not an accident; that's a trend. And as Parcells likes to say, "you are what your record is," so the other stuff is just excuses.

 

Lastly, if the Dols only end-up making the playoffs once (2008) under Parcells, would that qualify as "successful?"

[Lurker]

Once upon a time? In 1985, maybe. When with all the sources he had "everywhere" as you state, his take was to draft Flutie with the number one pick overall in the draft, when in fact the draft had Flutie lasting until round 5. Great sources there - great demonstration of football knowledge

Drop the Flutie schict. There were plenty of NFL people coming down on both sides of that debate. The draft was small potatoes in those days and if that's all you got on Felser, so's your argument...

[BillsVet]

Sorry, but a Bill Parcells sort of overhaul is exactly what the Buffalo Bills need. Which is not to say that Parcells would've considered giving up his VP position to come in and clean things up. Nor does it mean that Nix/Gailey aren't getting back to basics.

 

Reading this thread, it's ironic to see some try to take Parcells down a notch in order to conflate the argument about Buffalo's front office. Parcells completely cleaned the Dolphins house in late 2007/early 2008 by firing virtually the entire previous regime and hiring his own GM and his own coach. They are now a perennial playoff contender in a difficult division and conference.

 

In Buffalo, no one beside the owner has ever been able to do this, and the result is 10 years in the NFL wilderness. Go ahead and say Parcells has issues, every talent evaluator does. Then review RW's front office decisions since 2000:firing Wade, hiring Donahoe, Levy, Brandon, re-signing DJ, the list goes on and on. Now who would you rather have running the show?

[JohnC]

Drop the Flutie schict. There were plenty of NFL people coming down on both sides of that debate. The draft was small potatoes in those days and if that's all you got on Felser, so's your argument...

 

No serious minded NFL staffer had Flutie rated as an upper tier pick. He was a gimmick player for a mediocre franchise. Yes, he outplayed the other qbs on our roster; but that isn't saying much.

 

His real niche was the CFL. He was a terrific player in that unique type of game on a wider field. Doug Flutie was a tremendous competitor and a fun player to watch. As a NFL player he was a short term boost with no long term impact.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Reading this thread, it's ironic to see some try to take Parcells down a notch in order to conflate the argument about Buffalo's front office. Parcells completely cleaned the Dolphins house in late 2007/early 2008 by firing virtually the entire previous regime and hiring his own GM and his own coach. They are now a perennial playoff contender in a difficult division and conference.

 

In Buffalo, no one beside the owner has ever been able to do this, and the result is 10 years in the NFL wilderness. Go ahead and say Parcells has issues, every talent evaluator does. Then review RW's front office decisions since 2000:firing Wade, hiring Donahoe, Levy, Brandon, re-signing DJ, the list goes on and on. Now who would you rather have running the show?

 

 

Not sure I know what you mean with "conflate" in this context... but the bigger vocabulary problem is with calling the Dolphins a "perennial" contender. They made the playoffs in 2008, and faded and missed them in 2009. They have many questions hanging over them.

 

The Bills have plenty of problems. The point with discussing the BPLoDR is that hoping to be turned around permanently by a big-name coach can be fool's gold. Both are legitimate points of discussion.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Not sure I know what you mean with "conflate" in this context... but the bigger vocabulary problem is with calling the Dolphins a "perennial" contender. They made the playoffs in 2008, and faded and missed them in 2009. They have many questions hanging over them.

 

The Bills have plenty of problems. The point with discussing the BPLoDR is that hoping to be turned around permanently by a big-name coach can be fool's gold. Both are legitimate points of discussion.

To be clear, I'm not arguing with the facts. I am saying the presentation is not quite as convincing as some seem to think though. Bill Parcells is really not that great of a prime example of coaches/GMs where his philosophy faded markedly over time. Using Doc's rather superficial measuring scale, it no doubt looks like Parcells faded. On the other hand, name one other coach/GM that has turned around 5 out of 5 franchises and most of those in 4 years or less. It sort of smacks of the same argument leveled against Marty Schottenheimer, which amounted to "so what if he has won everywhere, his playoff record isn't that great", when one's team is struggling not to sink too fast in Jauron quicksand. Parcells isn't perfect, but it's laughable from the standpoint of a Bills fan to mock success.

 

The point that a retread name coach doesn't always get a bad team over the hump has better examples like George Seifert and Mike Ditka. We should keep an eye on Mike Shanahan...

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

To be clear, I'm not arguing with the facts. I am saying the presentation is not quite as convincing as some seem to think though. Bill Parcells is really not that great of a prime example of coaches/GMs where his philosophy faded markedly over time. Using Doc's rather superficial measuring scale, it no doubt looks like Parcells faded. On the other hand, name one other coach/GM that has turned around 5 out of 5 franchises and most of those in 4 years or less. It sort of smacks of the same argument leveled against Marty Schottenheimer, which amounted to "so what if he has won everywhere, his playoff record isn't that great", when one's team is struggling not to sink too fast in Jauron quicksand. Parcells isn't perfect, but it's laughable from the standpoint of a Bills fan to mock success.

 

The point that a retread name coach doesn't always get a bad team over the hump has better examples like George Seifert and Mike Ditka. We should keep an eye on Mike Shanahan...

 

 

You make a good point that there are better examples of coaches whose reputation did not mean success the second time around than Parcells—Ditka and Seifert are much better, as is, to my mind, Jimmy Johnson—though I really do not see why it is "laughable" for Bills fans to point out the diminishing returns. I can see clearly what goes on elsewhere even if I know how bad the Bills have been, and I for one am not saying the Bills did better. I am simply a deep skeptic on the power of "genius" coaches, since I think there is an alchemy between coaching, good players, and general good luck in any sport that is beyond any one person's ability to control. If Norwood makes that kick, who is the genius coach of SB XXV? Would Bill Belichek be considered a genius head coach without Tom Brady, whom he did not select as his starting QB before the hit on Bledsoe forced his hand? Heck, whatever you think about the Tuck Rule, that was a stroke of good fortune that saved the Pats' season in 2001. Or, to use an example closer to home, would Marv Levy be considered a genius HOFer if he did not have several HOFers on his roster? His performance before 1987 and after 1996 would suggest otherwise.

[Sisyphean Bills]

You make a good point that there are better examples of coaches whose reputation did not mean success the second time around than Parcells—Ditka and Seifert are much better, as is, to my mind, Jimmy Johnson—though I really do not see why it is "laughable" for Bills fans to point out the diminishing returns. I can see clearly what goes on elsewhere even if I know how bad the Bills have been, and I for one am not saying the Bills did better. I am simply a deep skeptic on the power of "genius" coaches, since I think there is an alchemy between coaching, good players, and general good luck in any sport that is beyond any one person's ability to control. If Norwood makes that kick, who is the genius coach of SB XXV? Would Bill Belichek be considered a genius head coach without Tom Brady, whom he did not select as his starting QB before the hit on Bledsoe forced his hand? Heck, whatever you think about the Tuck Rule, that was a stroke of good fortune that saved the Pats' season in 2001. Or, to use an example closer to home, would Marv Levy be considered a genius HOFer if he did not have several HOFers on his roster? His performance before 1987 and after 1996 would suggest otherwise.

Like I always say, it is a team sport. The coach is just another position on the team. We can find very below average coaches (Barry Switzer) who won championships and good coaches that toiled away and didn't (Marty Schottenheimer). Still, like there is a clear and obvious difference between Peyton Manning and JaMarcus Russell, there are clear differences between coaches. Having a good one makes a difference. Exactly how much is always debatable, because a team is never as simple as the sum of its parts.

 

PS: As to the laughable comment, I just think it is ironic to nit pick over a legend. If it makes some sleep easier at night to think the Bills are better off to not be associated with legendary coaches and players, then that's OK. I'd rather win.

[Doc]

Like I always say, it is a team sport. The coach is just another position on the team. We can find very below average coaches (Barry Switzer) who won championships and good coaches that toiled away and didn't (Marty Schottenheimer). Still, like there is a clear and obvious difference between Peyton Manning and JaMarcus Russell, there are clear differences between coaches. Having a good one makes a difference. Exactly how much is always debatable, because a team is never as simple as the sum of its parts.

 

PS: As to the laughable comment, I just think it is ironic to nit pick over a legend. If it makes some sleep easier at night to think the Bills are better off to not be associated with legendary coaches and players, then that's OK. I'd rather win.

So if Parcells can get you a winning season 67% of the time, to the playoffs 50% of the time and no playoff wins (based on his Cowboys and Dols careers), is that enough for you, knowing that your team will most likely never win a SB under him?

[mattsox]

Bill Parcells would have been a great GM or front office guy. Unfortunately Ralph didn't know him

[C.Biscuit97]

Parcells had the 1st overall pick in the draft in 3 of the 5 gigs he's had (Pats in 1993, Jets in 1997, and Dols in 2008). Would you advocate the Bills tanking this season to get the 1st overall pick next year, to help in the overhaul effort?

 

As for the diminishing returns, forgetting all the other stuff, the fact of the matter is that there has been a steady decline in the success of his teams. That's not an accident; that's a trend. And as Parcells likes to say, "you are what your record is," so the other stuff is just excuses.

 

Lastly, if the Dols only end-up making the playoffs once (2008) under Parcells, would that qualify as "successful?"

 

 

It's also worth nothing that Bill Polian inherited 2 #1 picks (Bruce and Manning) and a new franchise that had multiple top 5 picks (Carolina). Polian is one of the best but he was also good at picking his spots. The Bills certainty have screwed up their share of drafts but there biggest problem is they never hit rock bottom or pick in the top 5. I believe they had 1 top 5 pick since they picked Bruce #1.

 

It's hard to not miss on picks when you aren't getting franchise players like you find in the top 5.

[vincec]

Joe Gibbs started off 0-5 in his 1st stint with Washington. If it takes Gailey that long to get things rolling, around week 5 or 6, with the QB they didn't want in there, you'll see a bunch of anti-Gailey posts.

I remember Gibbs saying later that he was seriously concerned about being fired before he won a single game- would have been the only NFL coach ever to do so.

 

Also, all this talk about Parcells "diminishing returns" made me go back to check some numbers. I thought I remembered that he took over bad teams with aging players and poor future prospects and turned them into winning teams with bright futures... Here's some info for consideration:

 

NE 1982 2-14 (season before Parcells)

NE 1993 5-11

NE 1994 10-6

NE 1995 6-10

NE 1996 11-5- went to the SB (Parcells leaves) This is pretty much a one way trip up from the worst team in the league to a SB contender when he left.

 

NYJ 1996 3-13 (season before Parcells)

NYJ 1997 9-7

NYJ 1998 12-4

NYJ 1999 8-8 (Parcells leaves) Didn't leave on a high like at NE, but this 8-8 team was far better than the 3-13 team he inherited.

 

Dal 2002 5-11 (season before Parcells)

Dal 2003 10-6

Dal 2004 6-10

Dal 2005 9-7

Dal 2006 9-7 (Parcells leaves) He rebuilt a Dallas team that was aging into a perennial contender with young players like Romo and DeMarcus Ware. Keep in mind that the team Wade Phillips took to 13-3, 9-7 and 11-5 records is essentially the one Parcells built.

 

Miami 2007 1-15 (season before Parcells takes over as GM)

Miami 2008 11-5

Miami 2009 7-9 Not a winning record last season, but it's hard to argue that Miami is heading in the right direction

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Bill Parcells would have been a great GM or front office guy. Unfortunately Ralph didn't know him

 

 

That is actually not true. Parcells had his best success in NY and NE, places where he was not the GM or front office guy. Doesn't anyone remember his complaint when he was bailing on NE about having to make the dinner but not being able to buy the groceries? Ironically, his demand for total control, combined with the natural short attention span of someone who has already enjoyed great success, is what burned him out in Dallas. Whether he hangs around MIA remains to be seen.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Nice numbers, but the point of diminishing returns is quite simple:

 

NYG: 2 super bowl wins

NE: one SB appearance, no wins

NYJ: one AFC Championship Appearance, no wins

DAL: No playoff wins

MIA: No playoff wins

 

Considering that each of the teams after the Giants picked up Tuna claiming it would lead to a SB championship, one sees that the highs get lower with each team. Does that mean he is a bad coach or GM? No, but it also means that the assumption that success replicates itself is flawed. If anything, it is a photocopy of a photocopy, each time a bit fainter.

 

 

I remember Gibbs saying later that he was seriously concerned about being fired before he won a single game- would have been the only NFL coach ever to do so.

 

Also, all this talk about Parcells "diminishing returns" made me go back to check some numbers. I thought I remembered that he took over bad teams with aging players and poor future prospects and turned them into winning teams with bright futures... Here's some info for consideration:

 

NE 1982 2-14 (season before Parcells)

NE 1993 5-11

NE 1994 10-6

NE 1995 6-10

NE 1996 11-5- went to the SB (Parcells leaves) This is pretty much a one way trip up from the worst team in the league to a SB contender when he left.

 

NYJ 1996 3-13 (season before Parcells)

NYJ 1997 9-7

NYJ 1998 12-4

NYJ 1999 8-8 (Parcells leaves) Didn't leave on a high like at NE, but this 8-8 team was far better than the 3-13 team he inherited.

 

Dal 2002 5-11 (season before Parcells)

Dal 2003 10-6

Dal 2004 6-10

Dal 2005 9-7

Dal 2006 9-7 (Parcells leaves) He rebuilt a Dallas team that was aging into a perennial contender with young players like Romo and DeMarcus Ware. Keep in mind that the team Wade Phillips took to 13-3, 9-7 and 11-5 records is essentially the one Parcells built.

 

Miami 2007 1-15 (season before Parcells takes over as GM)

Miami 2008 11-5

Miami 2009 7-9 Not a winning record last season, but it's hard to argue that Miami is heading in the right direction

[BillsVet]

It's also worth nothing that Bill Polian inherited 2 #1 picks (Bruce and Manning) and a new franchise that had multiple top 5 picks (Carolina). Polian is one of the best but he was also good at picking his spots. The Bills certainty have screwed up their share of drafts but there biggest problem is they never hit rock bottom or pick in the top 5. I believe they had 1 top 5 pick since they picked Bruce #1.

 

It's hard to not miss on picks when you aren't getting franchise players like you find in the top 5.

 

I thought the draft was a crap-shoot? I mean, for every Peyton Manning, there's a JaMarcus Russell. And for every Bruce Smith, there's an Aundray Bruce. It's obvious to me that you can miss on a top-5 pick, so it's really not the benefit you make it out to be.

 

Reading your thread, it's almost as if Polian was granted these guys and put no thought into it. I mean, guys like Ray Childress, Chris Doleman, and Ryan Leaf were definitely rated below the top pick in those 85 and 98 drafts, right?

 

Buffalo hit rock bottom in 2001, and ended up getting a bust in the subsequent 2002 draft. Detroit has had numerous busts (Charles Rogers) and Oakland as well (Robert Gallery). The common denominator is those teams had piss-poor decision makers just like Buffalo had from 06-09 in the least.

[BillsVet]

Nice numbers, but the point of diminishing returns is quite simple:

 

NYG: 2 super bowl wins

NE: one SB appearance, no wins

NYJ: one AFC Championship Appearance, no wins

DAL: No playoff wins

MIA: No playoff wins

 

Considering that each of the teams after the Giants picked up Tuna claiming it would lead to a SB championship, one sees that the highs get lower with each team. Does that mean he is a bad coach or GM? No, but it also means that the assumption that success replicates itself is flawed. If anything, it is a photocopy of a photocopy, each time a bit fainter.

 

Let's make this real simple: Who would you rather have picking GM's, HC's, and in the draft? Bill Parcells or Ralph Wilson and Buddy Nix? Who has the better reputation in the NFL, Parcells or Wilson/Nix? Who's rebuilt more football teams, regardless of "diminishing returns", Parcells or Wilson/Nix?

 

When you hire people you know as the only criteria versus hiring the best qualified person for the job, you lose. And after 10 years in the NFL wilderness, I'd rather have a proven winner.