New Iphone can do everything but make phone calls

[Booster4324]

And it seems like you're willing to extract your personal use case to everyone else. Right now, I think there are a few things that are proven, and a lot of anecdotal evidence.

 

Here's what it seems like we do know:

 

1.) The way a human holds a phone can interfere with the way the antenna operates

2.) FCC rules regulations cause antennas to be placed in a non-ideal spot

3.) External antennas can exaggerate the effect of the way a person holds the phone on the antenna

4.) Not every person holds the phone that way

5.) Some (unspecified) number of people are reporting problems

6.) Some (unspecified) number of people are using the phone without any issue

 

What we don't know:

 

1.) The number of people actually having problems

2.) That everyone having problems is solely because of the antenna (I'm inclined to believe signal strength has a lot to do with it)

3.) How this number compares to previous iPhone designs

4.) How this number compares to phones made by other manufacturers

5.) Of the people having these problems, how big of an impact it actually is on their phone satisfaction

 

Unfortunately, without all that data, it's hard to have an informed opinion. I'd think that the only group that has enough of that data to know is Apple, but it's hard to judge from their behavior as a lot of it could just be PR based.

 

Personally, I feel like a large number of iPhone 4 owners are extrapolating their experience for the entire group, potentially underestimating the impact of it. I also think that the issue is a lot more complicated than the way the media is framing it (surprise), so it's hard to get a real understanding of the impact of the problem. I do think there is a design flaw, but the impact of that flaw is so cloudy at this point, I have no idea what it is.

 

BTW, I'm typing this from my MacBook Pro

 

Nice post, you raise all the relevant questions. The media has gone insane over this. Apple made good on this IMO when they offered a full refund or the silly case.

[Chilly]

But you're comparing one thing to make a point about another. Comparing the companies sales doesn't have anything to do with how well individual phones sell and why one particular phone would become the target of a smear campaign (not my opinion).

 

The iPhone is the most recognizable smartphone in the US right now. Whether it's the best or not isn't the point, it's the phone that every other phone is compared to. Saying that it is "top dog" is dead on, and it's also very accurate to say that there is a large, very vocal group that has to tear down everything that is considered to be the best. People hate Microsoft because Windows is so big (and therefore the target of virus' etc...), though when the Playstation got so big it became the bad guy and the X-Box was the only way to go (Microsoft hatred forgotten). As far as computers, stay away from Windows and get the Mac; Apple is the good guy. Until of course the iPhone becomes the picture of "trend" and now it's the devil. These are just a very few examples, but the whole XXXX is big and powerful and bad is annoying to me.

 

Notice how you're lumping in all the iPhone models together when you're talking about the iPhone, but you're still trying to make an argument about "individual phones"? Individual phones are really the iPhone 4G, iPhone 3GS, iPhone 3G, etc, not the "iPhone". Look at the comment about "The iPhone is the most recognizable smartphone in the US right now." Are you talking about the iPhone 4, iPhone 3GS, etc? Really, you're talking about the device form factor and the OS, *not* individual phones, when you're trying to make the point to back up the top dog. That's why I was using RIM's numbers as a whole as a good comparison: You're comparing form factor & OS.

 

It's the same with RIM's devices. The form factor & OS are instantly recognizable, and have way more market share.

[Chilly]

Nice post, you raise all the relevant questions. The media has gone insane over this. Apple made good on this IMO when they offered a full refund or the silly case.

 

I agree, it was a great response by Apple. From a customer service perspective, there's nothing more you can really do.

[John Adams]

Worldwide market share:

 

1.) Nokia (35%)

2.) Samsung (20.6%)

3.) LG (8.6%)

4.) RIM (3.4%)

5.) Sony Ericsson (3.1%)

6.) Motorola (3.0%)

7.) Apple (2.7%)

8.) ZTE (1.7%)

9.) G-Five (1.4%)

10.) Huawei (1.3%)

 

If it happens on RIM's phones (and flagship Blackberry Bold 2), like you say it does, and people like to "throw stones at the top dog", then why isn't RIM taking more heat for it? Or Samsung, with their 20.6% market share?

 

That's cute. What are the best-selling phones on the planet?

[GG]

That's cute. What are the best-selling phones on the planet?

 

Those would be the Nokias.

[John Adams]

Those would be the Nokias.

 

iPhone, one of the best-selling phones on the planet. Pretty sure I'm not wrong.

 

From June

 

1. (-) Apple iPhone 4

2. (1) Nokia 3720 Classic

3. (4) HTC Desire

4. (3) Apple iPhone 3G

5. (5) Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

6. (-) Samsung Wave S8500

7. (6) Nokia E52

8. (7) Samsung B2100

9. (2) Nokia 6700 Classic

10. (9) Nokia 2730 Classic

 

From April.

1. (2) Nokia 3720 Classic

 

2. (1) Apple iPhone 3G

 

3. (3) HTC HD2

 

4. (-)HTC Desire

 

5. (-)Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

 

6. (-)Nokia 2730 Classic

 

7. (10) Samsung B2100

 

8. (-)Sony Ericsson Vivaz

 

9. (5) Nokia E52

 

10. (-)HTC Legend

[NoSaint]

And it seems like you're willing to extract your personal use case to everyone else. Right now, I think there are a few things that are proven, and a lot of anecdotal evidence.

 

Here's what it seems like we do know:

 

1.) The way a human holds a phone can interfere with the way the antenna operates

2.) FCC rules regulations cause antennas to be placed in a non-ideal spot

3.) External antennas can exaggerate the effect of the way a person holds the phone on the antenna

4.) Not every person holds the phone that way

5.) Some (unspecified) number of people are reporting problems

6.) Some (unspecified) number of people are using the phone without any issue

 

What we don't know:

 

1.) The number of people actually having problems

2.) That everyone having problems is solely because of the antenna (I'm inclined to believe signal strength has a lot to do with it)

3.) How this number compares to previous iPhone designs

4.) How this number compares to phones made by other manufacturers

5.) Of the people having these problems, how big of an impact it actually is on their phone satisfaction

 

Unfortunately, without all that data, it's hard to have an informed opinion. I'd think that the only group that has enough of that data to know is Apple, but it's hard to judge from their behavior as a lot of it could just be PR based.

 

Personally, I feel like a large number of iPhone 4 owners are extrapolating their experience for the entire group, potentially underestimating the impact of it. I also think that the issue is a lot more complicated than the way the media is framing it (surprise), so it's hard to get a real understanding of the impact of the problem. I do think there is a design flaw, but the impact of that flaw is so cloudy at this point, I have no idea what it is.

 

BTW, I'm typing this from my MacBook Pro

 

Im certainly extrapolating to a degree. Personally, and within my friends/family/coworkers I havent had/heard any serious complaints. It seems the most vocal people on the issue dont own the phone. This is very much a convenience sampling though, and I am not trying to say the issue does not exist. This could be a result of style of usage, or even varying coverage from ATT (already a weak signal = more calls dropped for some people?), but I am talking about a wide range of demographics and regions, but not in any huge statistically relevant sampling. I still see a lot of people complaining on here but have yet to see anyone with an Iphone say they are truly unhappy, which leads me to believe it might be the opposite of what you are saying, and its not the iphone users unfairly extrapolating good experiences, but droid (etc...) users extrapolating the bad ones out there -- who knows at this point though. So much money being dumped into marketing both for and against right now that its hard to pull out any conclusions. .

 

Is the reception dropping an issue? absolutely. Is it one that has had serious negative impact on users? its really hard to say without hard numbers that dont exist (or atleast i havent seen them). All you can really go on at this point is anecdotal evidence, which for me has been very positive. Clearly there are people unhappy though, or this wouldnt be a conversation in the first place. I am not trying to stick my head in the sand and pretend that the phone is the holy grail of unflawed technology. I think the last statement you made:

 

"I do think there is a design flaw, but the impact of that flaw is so cloudy at this point, I have no idea what it is."

 

sums up a lot about whats going on right now. Due to that cloudiness, I find it strange that people that have never even held the phone can tell me how miserable it must be for me to use it -- because quite frankly, it hasnt been in my own experience.

[NoSaint]

Worldwide market share:

 

1.) Nokia (35%)

2.) Samsung (20.6%)

3.) LG (8.6%)

4.) RIM (3.4%)

5.) Sony Ericsson (3.1%)

6.) Motorola (3.0%)

7.) Apple (2.7%)

8.) ZTE (1.7%)

9.) G-Five (1.4%)

10.) Huawei (1.3%)

 

If it happens on RIM's phones (and flagship Blackberry Bold 2), like you say it does, and people like to "throw stones at the top dog", then why isn't RIM taking more heat for it? Or Samsung, with their 20.6% market share?

 

 

I know its not totally fair, but i think its more fair to group Iphones together, then every model of nokia or samsung etc.... How many dozens of widely ranging in capability and design phones do either of those companies have on the market at any given time.

 

Comparatively the difference between a 3g and 3gs, or a 3gs and 4 remains slim (yes there are differences but in basic design, we are not lumping a $19.99 disposable flip phone, with a $600 smartphone when we write apple on the list), also apple is offering realistically 1-2 major models at any given time targeting, and seemingly dominating (though the lead is declining), their smaller demographic.

[Chilly]

I know its not totally fair, but i think its more fair to group Iphones together, then every model of nokia or samsung etc.... How many dozens of widely ranging in capability and design phones do either of those companies have on the market at any given time.

 

Comparatively the difference between a 3g and 3gs, or a 3gs and 4 remains slim (yes there are differences but in basic design, we are not lumping a $19.99 disposable flip phone, with a $600 smartphone when we write apple on the list), also apple is offering realistically 1-2 major models at any given time targeting, and seemingly dominating (though the lead is declining), their smaller demographic.

 

I agree, which is why I pointed to RIM's numbers in my comment. Comparing RIM's marketshare to Apple's marketshare gives as close of a picture as possible at this point.

[Chilly]

iPhone, one of the best-selling phones on the planet. Pretty sure I'm not wrong.

 

From June

 

1. (-) Apple iPhone 4

2. (1) Nokia 3720 Classic

3. (4) HTC Desire

4. (3) Apple iPhone 3G

5. (5) Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

6. (-) Samsung Wave S8500

7. (6) Nokia E52

8. (7) Samsung B2100

9. (2) Nokia 6700 Classic

10. (9) Nokia 2730 Classic

 

From April.

1. (2) Nokia 3720 Classic

 

2. (1) Apple iPhone 3G

 

3. (3) HTC HD2

 

4. (-)HTC Desire

 

5. (-)Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

 

6. (-)Nokia 2730 Classic

 

7. (10) Samsung B2100

 

8. (-)Sony Ericsson Vivaz

 

9. (5) Nokia E52

 

10. (-)HTC Legend

 

 

lol. You call my numbers cute, then post numbers based on number of cases sold by a single sweedish case manufacturer?

 

From http://www.mobilecreek.com/the-top-10-sell...-for-june-2010/

 

The Swedish manufacturer of carrying cases for portable devices Krusell has announced it’s traditional rating of top mobile phones of June 2010. The rating is based on the number of cases ordered from Krusell during last month.

 

Look at overall marketshare. Apple isn't close. If the iPhone was one of the best selling phones in the world, they'd have a *lot* more marketshare than they do. They'd be up near RIM's numbers.

[NoSaint]

I agree, which is why I pointed to RIM's numbers in my comment. Comparing RIM's marketshare to Apple's marketshare gives as close of a picture as possible at this point.

 

 

fair enough -- without knowing the hard details on market share, im willing to take this on face value.

 

i think a lot of people took the list, whether intended or not, as a statement of look at this 2% compared to the top, not as a comparison of peers in the middle. As far as the smartphone market goes in the US i think its a little blinded to not acknowledge iphone as either top dog, or among the elite. can you look at those lines on initial sale date and say iphone doesnt have a different kind of following then any other phone on the market? market share is obviously the easiest benchmark, but there is something to be said for being able to look out the window of your office and seeing a line wrap around the block.

[Fingon]

fair enough -- without knowing the hard details on market share, im willing to take this on face value.

 

i think a lot of people took the list, whether intended or not, as a statement of look at this 2% compared to the top, not as a comparison of peers in the middle. As far as the smartphone market goes in the US i think its a little blinded to not acknowledge iphone as either top dog, or among the elite. can you look at those lines on initial sale date and say iphone doesnt have a different kind of following then any other phone on the market? market share is obviously the easiest benchmark, but there is something to be said for being able to look out the window of your office and seeing a line wrap around the block.

Do you sing the praises of Twilight as well?

[NoSaint]

Do you sing the praises of Twilight as well?

 

no but i acknowledge it is either the top dog or among them as far as movie sales.

 

i dont think anything in the quoted post referenced quality, it was speaking to the volume, and "top dog" debate, not whether it was the best phone.

[Chilly]

fair enough -- without knowing the hard details on market share, im willing to take this on face value.

 

i think a lot of people took the list, whether intended or not, as a statement of look at this 2% compared to the top, not as a comparison of peers in the middle. As far as the smartphone market goes in the US i think its a little blinded to not acknowledge iphone as either top dog, or among the elite. can you look at those lines on initial sale date and say iphone doesnt have a different kind of following then any other phone on the market? market share is obviously the easiest benchmark, but there is something to be said for being able to look out the window of your office and seeing a line wrap around the block.

 

I agree that Apple is a top player (#2 in fact) in the US smartphone market, but I disagree that they are one on the overall worldwide phone market.

 

In any event, perhaps I didn't state my original point clearly. I was more trying to say that if this is simply a case of people piling on top of Apple for being the top dog, when all phone manufacturers experience this problem, then why hasn't RIM, who has more marketshare in both the US & the world, and who apparently also experiences the problem (according to Apple & posts earlier), been raked over the coals?

 

One option is it could be that the iPhone is truly #1 in sales, and above RIM's phone lineup. I haven't seen any numbers that back that up, though. Especially when RIM is widely considered to be the leader in US smartphones, with Apple #2, by just about everyone. That's why I was trying to do the "RIM vs Apple" thing. I think the argument is invalid if you say that RIM is experiencing the same thing, but they aren't getting the heat for it because they aren't the top dog.

[bartshan-83]

I agree that Apple is a top player (#2 in fact) in the US smartphone market, but I disagree that they are one on the overall worldwide phone market.

 

In any event, perhaps I didn't state my original point clearly. I was more trying to say that if this is simply a case of people piling on top of Apple for being the top dog, when all phone manufacturers experience this problem, then why hasn't RIM, who has more marketshare in both the US & the world, and who apparently also experiences the problem (according to Apple & posts earlier), been raked over the coals?

 

One option is it could be that the iPhone is truly #1 in sales, and above RIM's phone lineup. I haven't seen any numbers that back that up, though. Especially when RIM is widely considered to be the leader in US smartphones, with Apple #2, by just about everyone. That's why I was trying to do the "RIM vs Apple" thing. I think the argument is invalid if you say that RIM is experiencing the same thing, but they aren't getting the heat for it because they aren't the top dog.

My take is that the amount of heat Apple has received is a result of 3 factors:

 

1. They are top dog in terms of visibility. As you've made clear, they can't touch RIM in worldwide market share and are still lagging domestically. But the iphone is the most visible, recognizable phone in the country (maybe the world? I have no idea). If you asked any person at random on the street to give you the name of the first cellphone to pop into their head, I'd have to believe the iPhone would crush overwhelmingly.

 

2. Their initial response was terrible in terms of PR. They blamed software (at best a peripheral problem, at worst a bold faced lie). They blamed the CONSUMER ("you're holding it wrong"). And finally they offered a "solution" of letting you buy that butt ugly case for $30. Terrible series of missteps and I think they deserve the backlash. They finally made good on it, but some damage was done.

 

3. Apple has built entire marketing empire on the idea that their products are cool and easy to use. They are directly responsible for the widespread ad campaign tactic that everyone uses now (OUR product is a cool, hip smart guy and YOUR product is a fat/awkward/nerdy/stupid guy). So when they F up and then react badly, it sticks out more. I mean, Jobs blaming how people hold the phone was exactly like something "PC" would say to "MAC" in one of those commercials.

 

I own an iPhone (3GS) and I love it. My dad just bought the iPhone4, and while he had some initial concerns over all this, he has had no problems and now loves it too. So I'm not just bashing. I just think they handled this poorly and the backlash makes sense for a variety of reasons (some self-inflicted, some not).

[NoSaint]

I agree that Apple is a top player (#2 in fact) in the US smartphone market, but I disagree that they are one on the overall worldwide phone market.

 

In any event, perhaps I didn't state my original point clearly. I was more trying to say that if this is simply a case of people piling on top of Apple for being the top dog, when all phone manufacturers experience this problem, then why hasn't RIM, who has more marketshare in both the US & the world, and who apparently also experiences the problem (according to Apple & posts earlier), been raked over the coals?

 

One option is it could be that the iPhone is truly #1 in sales, and above RIM's phone lineup. I haven't seen any numbers that back that up, though. Especially when RIM is widely considered to be the leader in US smartphones, with Apple #2, by just about everyone. That's why I was trying to do the "RIM vs Apple" thing. I think the argument is invalid if you say that RIM is experiencing the same thing, but they aren't getting the heat for it because they aren't the top dog.

 

 

i think that it has something to do with the lines and publicity. regardless of sales, if you go to average joe down the street and say "who sells more phones, RIM or Apple?" i promise you apple wins in a landslide. perhaps a case of perception being reality with this issue? also, by having so many similar phones, none have reached an icon status

 

they definitely have thats what i was getting at with the lines around the block comment.

[Chilly]

i think that it has something to do with the lines and publicity. regardless of sales, if you go to average joe down the street and say "who sells more phones, RIM or Apple?" i promise you apple wins in a landslide. perhaps a case of perception being reality with this issue? also, by having so many similar phones, none have reached an icon status

 

they definitely have thats what i was getting at with the lines around the block comment.

 

It's hard to win these types of arguments, as there's no real study done on them.

 

I work for a technology company, specifically in the email hosting division (so you can imagine all the mobile devices we get), and the amount of Blackberries we have hooked up to BES, the amount of customers we support that own Blackberries (even with BIS), the amount of visibility that Blackberries get, is a ton higher than all the activesync/iPhone services we provide.

 

Yes, Apple has the TV ads, but even my girlfriend's mom (who isn't tech savvy at ALL and owned a 5+ year old flip phone) when she was looking for a new phone immediately thought of Blackberries to start, and not the iPhone, because so many people at her office use Blackberries.

 

What we're arguing right now is your anecdotal evidence vs my anecdotal evidence. It's an argument neither of us can win, unless some studies have been done on it that I'm not aware of.

[NoSaint]

It's hard to win these types of arguments, as there's no real study done on them.

 

I work for a technology company, specifically in the email hosting division (so you can imagine all the mobile devices we get), and the amount of Blackberries we have hooked up to BES, the amount of customers we support that own Blackberries (even with BIS), the amount of visibility that Blackberries get, is a ton higher than all the activesync/iPhone services we provide.

 

Yes, Apple has the TV ads, but even my girlfriend's mom (who isn't tech savvy at ALL and owned a 5+ year old flip phone) when she was looking for a new phone immediately thought of Blackberries to start, and not the iPhone, because so many people at her office use Blackberries.

 

What we're arguing right now is your anecdotal evidence vs my anecdotal evidence. It's an argument neither of us can win, unless some studies have been done on it that I'm not aware of.

 

 

 

 

i guess -- i was just hypothesizing as to why iphone is viewed differently, which i think it clearly is. as the post a few back said, apple has marketed itself as the cool kid in school, and everyone else being average joe in comparison, and they have spent a lot of money doing so. essentially all the commercials for apple insult non apple users as being somehow less intelligent, savvy, or cool. blackberry is not near the ICON that it once was, and even at their peak i dont think you would find many people saying they were positioning themselves as the coolest phone out there -- they werent branded to be the prom king or rock star. they were business phones that got the job done better/more efficiently then anyone else. this doesnt speak to quality or sales, just brand image... ill see if i can find some advertising/marketing or consumer perception data on the two. I know it exists, but ive been a lil busy at work (contrary to what my posts would have you believe).

 

if you take the market position, which is not anecdotal, as an accurate assessment then i think its easy to see why people are so excited about the recent issues. love them or hate them, and as much as everyone wants to be like them..... even more, everyone loves to see the prom king and queen embarrass themselves. and even though that line of marketing is cliched, they have done it well. they have people camping out in front of stores ala a sold out concert, the show that is iphone.... but they are now seeing the backlash that happens when you get caught lip syncing. the product had an issue, the response was messy, see the post a few back that talks about this -- it very well captured the idea. does it mean they cant sing? it seems they are trying to handle the issue, and we will see how it plays out. in my experience the phone has worked great, so i continue to use it.

 

it makes sense to me that in some way the biggest complainers in this thread, or in general, are those that never touched an iphone. they are the ones that have been insulted by the company day in and day out. thats the psych element i was trying to get at. i think it goes far beyond market share, potential software issues, and is very much a product of what happens when the "better then you" or "you arent part of the click" brand image goes wrong.

[GG]

iPhone, one of the best-selling phones on the planet. Pretty sure I'm not wrong.

 

From June

 

1. (-) Apple iPhone 4

2. (1) Nokia 3720 Classic

3. (4) HTC Desire

4. (3) Apple iPhone 3G

5. (5) Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

6. (-) Samsung Wave S8500

7. (6) Nokia E52

8. (7) Samsung B2100

9. (2) Nokia 6700 Classic

10. (9) Nokia 2730 Classic

 

From April.

1. (2) Nokia 3720 Classic

 

2. (1) Apple iPhone 3G

 

3. (3) HTC HD2

 

4. (-)HTC Desire

 

5. (-)Sony Ericsson XPERIA X10

 

6. (-)Nokia 2730 Classic

 

7. (10) Samsung B2100

 

8. (-)Sony Ericsson Vivaz

 

9. (5) Nokia E52

 

10. (-)HTC Legend

 

And the source for this is? So, the iPhone4 goes on sale June 24, and becomes the biggest seller in the world in one week?

 

Even if you count the fanboys who had to get that phone in the first week, since AT&T is now clocking 70%+ upgraders Apple's market share growth is slowing a lot.

 

Seems to me you're getting as defensive as Jobs when someone suggests that the iPhone isn't a perfect handset.

 

You can extol any virtues that you want on the phone, but when I need to get some information from the web really fast, my crappy old BB that's on AT&T's ancient EDGE network beats the iPhone on a 3G network hands down. Don't even try comparing EDGE performance between the two. But yes, the iPhone has prettier websites (as long as they don't use Flash)

[John Adams]

You can extol any virtues that you want on the phone, but when I need to get some information from the web really fast, my crappy old BB that's on AT&T's ancient EDGE network beats the iPhone on a 3G network hands down. Don't even try comparing EDGE performance between the two. But yes, the iPhone has prettier websites (as long as they don't use Flash)

 

3G wipes its ass with EDGE and flushes.

 

If you are seriously going to compare browsing experiences between an iPhone and Blackberry, you're officially entering the world of conner.