In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Links below. A key argument from Modrak defenders is that he's a solid football man who's been approached for jobs from other teams. Therefore, the Bills should feel lucky to have him and no matter how bad his drafts have been. This argument may have been a reasonable one 9 years ago, but that's no longer the case. The shine has come off this turd in a big way. Tom Modrak was forced out in Philly in 2001. Modrak used reporters to plan stories about team's interest in him. Read down to the Modrak portion of this PFT post. Modrak was going to get fired in 2006, when Jauron stepped in to vouch for him. All three of these articles do little to bolster your case. Yes, Modrak was forced out of Philly when Andy Reid got the power over personnel. Big deal. His replacement, Heckert, didn't even have final say in personnel, even though he was the GM. Andy Reid is one of, if not the most powerful head coaches in the league, so it's no surprise that Modrak was fired in that soap opera. In the PFT archive, it never even hints that Modrak used reporters to plant stories. It quotes one of Florio's unnamed sources that he's being considered for top FO posts because Lenny P and Tom Donahoe keep plugging him. Also, look at the tone of the article. It's clear that Florio has issues with ESPN that extend way beyond Tom Modrak. Lastly, the Jauron saving Modrak's job is a 1-liner in 1 media outlet, again PFT with one of their "league sources". Did the Bill's beat reporters ever mention this story? You'd think if it was real, it'd be documented by a named source, more than once. Sorry, doesn't pass the smell test...
Sisyphean Bills Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 It is well known that he wanted Cutler in 2006 and he leaked to the press that he wanted Cushing last year (you reference this). Whenever he's been overruled, he's immediately leaked it to the press so as to insulate himself from criticism. To me, this is not a good thing. In fact, it is one reason I think the Bills might be further ahead now if they had fired this guy years ago. Why are the team's true draft direction and the apparent (rumored) evaluations and road map of their top college evaluator completely and totally out of whack? The fact that the team takes bust after bust in the draft and then there are these "leaks" that suggest Modrak would've chosen some Pro Bowler or Rookie of the Year player leave a strong stench of spin. Why are his opinions, if they are so can't-miss, routinely ignored? Perhaps it is a bit of playing it both ways? Rating a number of players about the same and letting someone else take the heat for making the "wrong" final decision? Take the Cutler idea. Modrak was in the building and involved to some degree in the decision to trade up for JP Losman. Partly that was done because Losman was considered better than anyone in the next draft. Yet, Modrak plays a discordant tune years later saying he would've conceded Losman was a bust even earlier and drafted Cutler as his QB. It begs the question: are these leaks just self-serving spin or is the Bills organization just so inept that nobody is on the same page or is it both?
Adam Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 This is just a post from someone who wants to assign blame for losing to one person, so they can rationalize that the problem is easy to fix.
San-O Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Really? So you KNOW he was responsible for the picks? Or was he responsible for the evaluations and setting up who scouts what areas of the country? YOU can't answer that with ANY reliability because YOU WEREN'T THERE. Really? That's the standard now? The media interviewed him about the draft, so now he's the guy who made the picks? Uh, he was in the room when the picks were made. He has the information. THAT DOESN'T MAKE HIM RESPONSIBLE FOR A SINGLE PICK. Try and figure out why that's leap. I don't know his responsibility beyond his title. Neither do you. That's why you have zero credibility firing the guy based off who was picked in the draft. It's just as likely that he didn't like a single pick that Jauron selected but like every good soldier, kept his mouth shut and went back to doing his job the best way he knew how. Guess which of them is still employed. Now try to guess why. Your tiny acumen, apparently. Sure it is. That's why so many reasonable posters are joining you. Or why a smart football guy like Buddy Nix canned him immediately and didn't use his input this draft. Oh wait. Why are you so adamant about defending Modrak? You make it sound like he does nothing other than receive reports from scouts and then send them across the hall or something.
John Adams Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 By the way, that's a great quote. Adams was always my favorite conservative. I don't know what you mean by Conservative. In his day, he wanted a larger federal government role and opposed the anti-federalists like Jefferson/Madison/Monroe. He also signed the Alien and Sedition Acts. I wouldn't comfortably pin him down with modern labels.
Gabe Northern Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Yes, Modrak was forced out of Philly when Andy Reid got the power over personnel. Big deal. His replacement, Heckert, didn't even have final say in personnel, even though he was the GM. Andy Reid is one of, if not the most powerful head coaches in the league, so it's no surprise that Modrak was fired in that soap opera. Philly fired him (for whatever reason) and have done quite well since then in his absence. Here's the point: People want to absolve Modrak of all responsibility for the 8 years of drafting failure at the Bills but, in the next sentence, point to the success of the Eagles as a sign that he's a great football guy who really knows his stuff. If you accuse me of heaping too much blame on Modrak for the Bills' troubles, shouldn't you think twice about the credit you're giving him for the success he enjoyed at previous jobs?
Gabe Northern Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 This is just a post from someone who wants to assign blame for losing to one person, so they can rationalize that the problem is easy to fix. Not sure if this is directed at me, but this is not true. We have been deficient in coaching, pro personnel, and draft in that order. We had enormous pro personnel problems over the years, as everyone knows. Terrible free agent signings at the top end (Dockery) and bottom end (Reyes, Andersen, Hangartner, Mel Fowler) of the pay scale. What happened? We fired John Guy and got ourself a real up-and-comer in Doug Whaley. We're much better off now. Coaching? We got a top-10 (maybe top 5) offensive coordinator as head coach. Might work, might not, but we're a hell of a lot better off now than we were 12 months ago. All I am arguing is that Tom Modrak deserves the same treatment, as his body of work in his area (the draft) is nearly as bad as those who've been fired for failures in other areas.
Gabe Northern Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 It begs the question: are these leaks just self-serving spin or is the Bills organization just so inept that nobody is on the same page or is it both? I had always thought these were CYA leaks from Modrak, but you raise a great point.
Adam Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Not sure if this is directed at me, but this is not true. We have been deficient in coaching, pro personnel, and draft in that order. We had enormous pro personnel problems over the years, as everyone knows. Terrible free agent signings at the top end (Dockery) and bottom end (Reyes, Andersen, Hangartner, Mel Fowler) of the pay scale. What happened? We fired John Guy and got ourself a real up-and-comer in Doug Whaley. We're much better off now. Coaching? We got a top-10 (maybe top 5) offensive coordinator as head coach. Might work, might not, but we're a hell of a lot better off now than we were 12 months ago. All I am arguing is that Tom Modrak deserves the same treatment, as his body of work in his area (the draft) is nearly as bad as those who've been fired for failures in other areas. That is completely impossible to know- We have been bad for a long time. Personally, I think it is personnel, but there are too many variables to isolate what the problem has been, or put it in order. I think we would have been better off at this point had we kept Donahoe- but the "Most Knowledgable and greatest fan base" wanted him gone. Modrak has had his share of success over the years. I think the scouts under him need to be overhauled.
In-A-Gadda-Levitre Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Philly fired him (for whatever reason) and have done quite well since then in his absence. Here's the point: People want to absolve Modrak of all responsibility for the 8 years of drafting failure at the Bills but, in the next sentence, point to the success of the Eagles as a sign that he's a great football guy who really knows his stuff. If you accuse me of heaping too much blame on Modrak for the Bills' troubles, shouldn't you think twice about the credit you're giving him for the success he enjoyed at previous jobs? I don't or absolve or blame Modrak. Judging by the fact that Nix is a professional scout by trade, I trust him to make the right call on Modrak's value to the team. Either it was too late this year or Nix thinks he's doing a good job. Time will tell. I don't accuse you of anything. You provided three articles and none of them made your point any stronger. As Alaska Darin says, you don't know what goes on in the Bill's war room, how much influence Modrak has over the selection process, or (most of the time) how he grades the prospects. Your quoting Florio's rants and unnamed singular sources doesn't help, just saying.
Gabe Northern Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 Your quoting Florio's rants and unnamed singular sources doesn't help, just saying. Fair points. Florio points out ways guys can get their name in the mix for jobs when they aren't really strong candidates. Basically, my impression is that Modrak serves as a source for Pasquarelli and then Pasquarelli returns the favor by mentioning Modrak as a candidate for GM jobs. People then point to the fact that Modrak is mentioned as a candidate for a GM job to bolster their case that he's a top personnel guy who could get another great job in a second. That's why I included that link -- the case that Modrak is a strong football guy is based on rumor and innuendo. While we don't know who precisely is responsible for each and every pick made over the past 9 drafts, one does not need to rely on rumor or idle speculation to say that Tom Modrak is in charge of the draft, since that's he's responsibility within the organization.
Red Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 We know that he was the employee chiefly responsible for player evaluations and recommending players to be drafted. We know that the team has a surfeit of talent and has not produced a legitimate pro bowler since he arrived (Schobel was 2001; McGee was special teams). His drafts neither uncover reliable starters at the top of the draft, or surprises in later rounds. With all of this information, why do you think he should be retained? You don't want to blame the team's failure all on him? Neither do I. All I want is some accountability for failure. I don't know if he should be retained; as I was calling for his ouster to go along w/John Guy prior to the season ending last year. If his job is solely to compile the recommendations of players we should draft AND the coaches took this advice, then I believe that this past decade has been more proof than anything anybody can say to the contrary that Modrak should go. He is, after all, a Donahoe guy. I could see if he was hitting home runs in every draft, but it's been the exact opposite. The problem is that we, as fans, don't truly know the inner dealings of the Bills draft rooms this past decade. Was Modrak overruled in the Maybin pick, when somebody like Oher or Orakpo would have been better? Hasn't it been said that Mauron was the one pushing for Maybin? Who had us choosing Donte Whitner instead of Haloti Ngata? Wasn't Whitner a Levy inspired pick? My point being if Modrak is the sole reason for the busts of the past decade, then YES...he needs to be kicked right out of town ASAP! But with the examples I provided, it becomes murkier as to what role his suggestions truly played in draft day decisions.
marsadale Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 My poll is for the bills to make a list of people who understand how to get a job done- that list will exclude their fans. "if you start to listen to the "dumbass drunken" fans........you will soon be sitting next to them as they vomit in the stands." (paraphrased somewhat) Marv Levy
C-zone Umpa Posted June 25, 2010 Posted June 25, 2010 I didn't read any of this thread..................all I can say is AMEN!!!!!!!!!
Thoner7 Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 I do hate the way the Bills drafts have gone. But when you look at the Bills drafts, they draft extremely well in the later rounds/sign great undrafted. Just think about K.Williams, McGee, Greer, J. Peters, Butler, J. Leonard, etc. So we all knwo Modrak is head of scouting, but we dont know who has had the final say when it comes to turning a pick in. If I were to guess, the owner of an NFL team could name the top 15-30 players in any given draft, but probably wouldnt have known the names of the guys I mentioned above, especially a 90 yr old owner... My point is - Maybe the reason our 1st and (some) 2nd round picks have sucked is because Modrak/the scouts havent made those picks. there were reports of Modrak wanting Cutler and Cushing, there is a possibility he wasnt allowed to decide who the Bills picks were in the first rounds. But whoever is in charge of the bills late round drafting gets a big in my book. (although there were blunders, ie Duke Preston over Jason Brown in 2005, there are plenty of studs taken by the Bills under Modraks tenure in the late rounds) Another point, Nix canned John Guy his first day on the job. If Modrak were as "in charge" of the draft as most assume he is, I bet he would have been canned too. My bet is Ralph has had his hand on the first round ever since Polian left and Nix knows this. I think that Raplh is the reason we have sucked so bad at drafting in the first round. (PS I believe he was behind the Spiller pick as well) Then, he leaves to take a nap and Modrak is left to find the Diamonds in the rough in rounds 2 or 3 on - ie the Byrds/Willaims/Peters
Sisyphean Bills Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 That is completely impossible to know- We have been bad for a long time. Personally, I think it is personnel, but there are too many variables to isolate what the problem has been, or put it in order. I think we would have been better off at this point had we kept Donahoe- but the "Most Knowledgable and greatest fan base" wanted him gone. Modrak has had his share of success over the years. I think the scouts under him need to be overhauled. The only fan that counts is Ralph Wilson. Nothing happens at the upper levels of his franchise without him making the decision. Blaming the average ticket buying fan (most of whom buy tickets regardless of the what decisions are made or the consequences) remains a cop-out. We might be further along if Donahoe had stayed. If Donahoe stays, chances are Wilson maintains his retirement distance and does not re-insert himself as President. If Donahoe stays, Marv Levy is never hired. If Donahoe stays, Mularkey stays. If Mularkey stays, Dick Jauron is never hired and given de facto control of football. Donahoe made a lot of mistakes in his own right, but there is a chance he could have turned it around. Donahoe's firing curiously enough did not involve a house cleaning, so most of the exact same people that gave Jauron and Levy/Smithers input never left. It's odd because the typical regime change involves moving in your own people (which was what happened when Donahoe was hired and most of the Bills previous front office ended up moving to San Diego together), since they are people that the GM knows and trusts and have been trained with the same philosophy. It just underscores what a bad move Dick Levy was and how unprepared they were to take over the team. Jauron couldn't attract experienced coaching assistants and Levy was, in retrospect, just coasting through town and lending his name and popular face as a favor to his friend. By the way, what sort of "fan" is it that wants their team to do poorly? Disappointment when your team makes ridiculous decisions that blow up in its face consistently, the moves that a laughingstock makes, seems like a fairly normal emotional reaction for a fan that cares. I know, I know. Trust the professionals because they know what they are doing. Well, the Bills have paid professionals for years to make decisions and it is patently obvious they do not know what they are doing. To think someone who is doing a damn poor job is above criticism, that the criticism should be squelched completely, and that censorship will somehow make things completely different, demonstrates a lack of reflection on cause and effect.
thewildrabbit Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 All I gotta say is... look at the O linemen drafted since 2002 You can make a case for Wood and Levitre, but will they ever become top players at their positions as they were #1 & #2 draft picks?
thewildrabbit Posted June 26, 2010 Posted June 26, 2010 To me, this is not a good thing. In fact, it is one reason I think the Bills might be further ahead now if they had fired this guy years ago. Why are the team's true draft direction and the apparent (rumored) evaluations and road map of their top college evaluator completely and totally out of whack? The fact that the team takes bust after bust in the draft and then there are these "leaks" that suggest Modrak would've chosen some Pro Bowler or Rookie of the Year player leave a strong stench of spin. Why are his opinions, if they are so can't-miss, routinely ignored? Perhaps it is a bit of playing it both ways? Rating a number of players about the same and letting someone else take the heat for making the "wrong" final decision? Take the Cutler idea. Modrak was in the building and involved to some degree in the decision to trade up for JP Losman. Partly that was done because Losman was considered better than anyone in the next draft. Yet, Modrak plays a discordant tune years later saying he would've conceded Losman was a bust even earlier and drafted Cutler as his QB. It begs the question: are these leaks just self-serving spin or is the Bills organization just so inept that nobody is on the same page or is it both? Who is the current president of the Buffalo Bills, Is he anything like the president the Colts? Lets face it, we all love the guy...but the team is screwed because he won't hire someone like Polian or Ozzie Newsome.
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