Which Failed QB Would Have Been Most Successful

[Beerball]

Rob Johnson played on some damn good teams and doesn't (IMO) belong on this list.

 

His problems were inside his head and his brittle body.

 

btw...I'm no flutopian so don't go there

 

(same for Collins)

[C.Biscuit97]

Rob Johnson played on some damn good teams and doesn't (IMO) belong on this list.

 

His problems were inside his head and his brittle body.

 

btw...I'm no flutopian so don't go there

 

(same for Collins)

 

 

When RJ actually had to play, those teams were terrible. RJ was a terrible QB.

[Beerball]

When RJ actually had to play, those teams were terrible. RJ was a terrible QB.

That's what I'm sayin. His lack of success (Collins too) had nothing to do with scheme/coaching/surrounding talent. He doesn't belong on the list.

[C.Biscuit97]

That's what I'm sayin. His lack of success (Collins too) had nothing to do with scheme/coaching/surrounding talent. He doesn't belong on the list.

 

 

Gotcha and I agree 100% on RJ. I hold Collins in a higher regard because he's played well when given the chance in this league.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Todd Collins. In fact he ended up finishing his carrer with some nice games in Washington. I avoided TE as I think he has one more chance to prove himself this year before he is a "failure" in my book.

 

JP like RJ were so talented but seemed to lack leadship, field vision and a football head. AVP had the football head but not the talent.

[sharper802]

Ever since Wade Phillips was let go it has been a case of you just don't know at OBD. Johnson was just too stupid to play the position. All the talent in the world but just plain dumb. The rest of the QB's who the hell knows. The coaches have been so bad there is no way of knowing. Losman played ok with Mularkey as HC and Sam Wyche as QB coach but he may not have been smart enough either. Maybe if they stay Losman continues to develop maybe not. Who knows? Edwards doesn't have Losman's physical ability. The other players know that. That's why Evans wanted Losman. Losman was the ultimate big play guy. Unfortunately the big play didn't happen very often and when it did it usually was him coughing up the ball and creating a big play for the other team. DJ coached not to lose. Trent as a young QB fits that philosophy. Once again we are left wondering does Trent have more to give with a real offensive minded coach or is this all he has. I think it is safe to say Fitzy is awful. You can't teach accuracy IMO. And again noone knows about Brohm.

[billsfreak]

The only one in the poll who ever led his team to the playoffs, has and will have the longest career of any of them is Todd Collins. He might not be much, but of this group he towers over the rest.

One decent stretch of about 6 or 7 games and he towers above everyone else? He was terrible with Buffalo, even losing his job at one point to Billy Joe Hobert. He was a big time draft bust with Buffalo and one of the worst QB's in team history.

[Orton's Arm]

Rob Johnson played on some damn good teams and doesn't (IMO) belong on this list.

 

His problems were inside his head and his brittle body.

 

btw...I'm no flutopian so don't go there

 

(same for Collins)

Other than Ruben Brown at LG, there were no offensive linemen in the top 20 at their respective positions when Johnson played. I think John Fina was ranked the 22nd best starting LT or something; and guys like Corbin Lacina, Jerry Ostroski, etc., were generally considered good enough to be quality backups, but not answers as starters. Johnson played behind a poor offensive line; which exacerbated his main weakness (taking too many sacks).

 

Antowain Smith was the main running back; and was significantly below-average for a starter. So your "good teams" argument boils down to Eric Moulds and Peerless Price at WR; and perhaps Jay Riemersma at TE. Eric Moulds was a very good receiver--a better and more complete receiver than Lee Evans. Peerless Price was a reasonably good deep burner. However, he was slower than Lee Evans, and was rather one-dimensional. He did very poorly after Buffalo traded him away. Jay Riemersma was a decent, but not great, receiving TE.

 

Overall, Johnson played on a team with some very good weapons (Moulds), a few decent weapons (Price and Riemersma), and a few guys who were below average (Antowain Smith). His offensive line was a significant weakness.

 

Compare that to the supporting cast Losman had in the second half of 2006. He had Jason Peters at LT; and overall was the recipient of much better pass protection than Johnson had while in Buffalo. He had Willis McGahee at RB who, while flawed, was a better player than Antowain Smith. At receiver he had Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, and others. While that was not the equivalent of the receiving corps Johnson had, there was still some talent there (especially Evans). Admittedly he didn't have a Jay Riemersma at TE. But overall, he was nonetheless surrounded by an overall better supporting cast than the one Johnson had.

[Coach55]

Rob Johnson and Todd Collins worked in a functional environment and failed. AVP was never given the opportunity. Losman operated in a pseudo-functional environment and failed. Edwards, likewise. If AVP played in the late 90's (based on his short-lived perfomance when they went 3-13), he could have been good. He knew how to read defenses better than the rest listed, however was completely not-protypical. 6-0 tall, overweight, slower than dirt. But if you look at the 8 games he started in 2001, he was:

 

168-286 - 58.7%, 1950 yds, 11 TD, 8 INT's. That is 6.8 YPA, 244 Yds/Game and 80.6% rating.

 

Yes, he was only 2-6, but that team sucked. He is the perfect example of someone who could've been if given the opportunity.

[Stevie Ray]

Rob Johnson. He has a Super Bowl ring to prove it!

[dpberr]

Nice breakdown on all accounts. I also believe Rob Johnson could have been good behind a terrific offensive line. He just held on to the ball too long. The poll results thus far have things backwards.

 

Count me in on RJ. I always felt he was the John McClane of Bills quarterbacks. He got lost in the chaos of the final act in the collapse of Rome (Bills supremacy).

 

Wrong place, wrong time.

[Gugny]

I'd have to say Collins. I was leaning toward Losman, but remembered how he just lacked the decisiveness and the ability to read defenses. Rob Johnson was just too lazy to put his God-given talent to use. Physically, he had potential. Unfortunately, he was too engrossed in his XBOX to study the playbook.

[Rob's House]

This is an easy one: Rob Johnson all the way. If you gave him time in the pocket, he could and did eat defenses alive...

 

If by time you mean like 10 minutes, sure. Anyone with an arm can make big plays if they hang on to the ball all day and only throw it when there's a wide open receiver streaking down the field. When you're taking a sack for ever 4 passes you throw that means you suck. Period.

[tennesseeboy]

The key component in a "functional environment" for a qb is first and foremost an offensive line, second a viable group of wide receivers and a good running game. Collins had the best situation, RJ had a little less, JP less than that, but TE had a mess on his hands. The carousel of Offensive Co-ordinators didn't help either. I'm not sure if he has what it takes to play or not, but certainly would have done better with a more supportive environment.

[BuffOrange]

I'd go with Lossman. I think there's some recency bias in believing the OL was that much better under Johnson (just as the most recently fired coach is always the worst). Remember that Smith/Linton/Bryson RB trio? He basically had nothing other than Moulds.

 

Also I agree with CBiscuit on something for once - people here make excuses for QB's in general way too much.

 

Edit: Wait I missed these....2 more things I absolutely agree with. What's going on here?

 

One decent stretch of about 6 or 7 games and he towers above everyone else? He was terrible with Buffalo, even losing his job at one point to Billy Joe Hobert. He was a big time draft bust with Buffalo and one of the worst QB's in team history.

 

 

Other than Ruben Brown at LG, there were no offensive linemen in the top 20 at their respective positions when Johnson played. I think John Fina was ranked the 22nd best starting LT or something; and guys like Corbin Lacina, Jerry Ostroski, etc., were generally considered good enough to be quality backups, but not answers as starters. Johnson played behind a poor offensive line; which exacerbated his main weakness (taking too many sacks).

 

Antowain Smith was the main running back; and was significantly below-average for a starter. So your "good teams" argument boils down to Eric Moulds and Peerless Price at WR; and perhaps Jay Riemersma at TE. Eric Moulds was a very good receiver--a better and more complete receiver than Lee Evans. Peerless Price was a reasonably good deep burner. However, he was slower than Lee Evans, and was rather one-dimensional. He did very poorly after Buffalo traded him away. Jay Riemersma was a decent, but not great, receiving TE.

 

Overall, Johnson played on a team with some very good weapons (Moulds), a few decent weapons (Price and Riemersma), and a few guys who were below average (Antowain Smith). His offensive line was a significant weakness.

 

Compare that to the supporting cast Losman had in the second half of 2006. He had Jason Peters at LT; and overall was the recipient of much better pass protection than Johnson had while in Buffalo. He had Willis McGahee at RB who, while flawed, was a better player than Antowain Smith. At receiver he had Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, and others. While that was not the equivalent of the receiving corps Johnson had, there was still some talent there (especially Evans). Admittedly he didn't have a Jay Riemersma at TE. But overall, he was nonetheless surrounded by an overall better supporting cast than the one Johnson had.

[shrader]

Why is Alex Van Pelt even on this list? He's an 8th round pick that we added as a free agent. I can't call that a failure at all. He doesn't fit in with the rest of this list as he was never brought in to be the guy.

[Bill from NYC]

Ever since Wade Phillips was let go it has been a case of you just don't know at OBD. Johnson was just too stupid to play the position. All the talent in the world but just plain dumb. The rest of the QB's who the hell knows. The coaches have been so bad there is no way of knowing. Losman played ok with Mularkey as HC and Sam Wyche as QB coach but he may not have been smart enough either. Maybe if they stay Losman continues to develop maybe not. Who knows? Edwards doesn't have Losman's physical ability. The other players know that. That's why Evans wanted Losman. Losman was the ultimate big play guy. Unfortunately the big play didn't happen very often and when it did it usually was him coughing up the ball and creating a big play for the other team. DJ coached not to lose. Trent as a young QB fits that philosophy. Once again we are left wondering does Trent have more to give with a real offensive minded coach or is this all he has. I think it is safe to say Fitzy is awful. You can't teach accuracy IMO. And again noone knows about Brohm.

 

Nice summary. Paragraphs are you friend, but that was a very good post.

[TDO'Kearney]

Compare that to the supporting cast Losman had in the second half of 2006. He had Jason Peters at LT; and overall was the recipient of much better pass protection than Johnson had while in Buffalo. He had Willis McGahee at RB who, while flawed, was a better player than Antowain Smith. At receiver he had Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, and others. While that was not the equivalent of the receiving corps Johnson had, there was still some talent there (especially Evans). Admittedly he didn't have a Jay Riemersma at TE. But overall, he was nonetheless surrounded by an overall better supporting cast than the one Johnson had.

While we're going on about RJ, in the one playoff game for the Bills those QBs had, RJ arguably played better than the much-heralded Steve McNair http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxs...00001080oti.htm, and came off the field having lead the Bills to the go ahead FG late in the 4Q while playing without a shoe at one point.

[PDaDdy]

This is an easy one: Rob Johnson all the way. If you gave him time in the pocket, he could and did eat defenses alive. His career stats are 7.2 yards per pass attempt, a QB rating of 83.6, and 30 TDs to 23 INTs (a 1.3 to 1 ratio). By way of contrast, Jim Kelly had 7.4 yards per pass attempt, a QB rating of 84.4, and 237 TDs to 175 INTs (a 1.4 to 1 ratio).

 

Rob Johnson's downfall was that he took too much time to throw, and therefore took too many sacks. But if you put him on a Super Bowl caliber team (presumably with a first-rate offensive line), then most of those sacks, hits, and injuries don't happen. (The line he had in Buffalo was third-rate, as one generally expects from post-Super Bowl era Bills teams.)

 

Rob Johnson is #1 on this list, because he's the guy most able to benefit from good offensive line play. Back when he had Tony Boselli blocking his left side (with the Jaguars), he looked like the guy at QB.

 

#2 on the list would probably be Todd Collins, if only by default. He has decent career stats--6.6 yards per pass attempt, a QB rating of 76.0, and a TD/INT ratio of 1.2. Trent Dilfer's career stats are 6.5 yards per pass attempt, a QB rating of 70.2, and a TD/INT ratio of 0.9. Todd Collins could have been someone's Trent Dilfer.

 

Third on the list is Trent Edwards; who has the skill set to be a good backup QB. Unfortunately, he is deeply flawed, as others on this thread have mentioned.

 

Fourth is Alex van Pelt. He played with a lot of heart, but didn't have the talent to back it up. He'd sometimes give you more than you'd expect, just based on his understanding of the game. But it's hard to imagine him having a sparkling career as an NFL QB under almost any circumstances.

 

Last is Losman, who had all the physical tools one would hope for from a QB. Of all the QBs on this list, only Rob Johnson had comparable physical traits. But Losman lacked Johnson's accuracy and his touch on throws. Moreover, Losman's understanding of the game was by far the weakest of any of the QBs on this list. A quarterback with a million dollar body and a ten cent brain is destined to fail even under positive circumstances, as Kordell Stewart found in Pittsburgh. (Incidentally, the same GM who chose Kordell also chose you know who.)

 

 

I really have to disagree with you on this one. You could make a case for Rob Johnson who was the only thing close to JP in terms of athleticism. I think if you actually look at the stats for starts and being the starter, as I always advised in the Losman vs Edwards debate, Losman had pretty decent stats. He put points on the board. What your arguments and ranking fail to take into consideration are the teams that each guy played on and the coaching staff at the time. I think that Losman and Edwards by far played on the worst "TEAMS" AND had the worst "COACHING".

 

Yes I was a Losman supporter. You can't teach 4.5 speed and a cannon arm. You can teach a guy that is too amped up, god I hated that phrase, to take some zip off his short ball. This used to be a common complaint with Brett Farve who didn't have the most consistent or successful career start. He was actually a Falcon and was traded to Green Bay.

 

Edwards has nothing other than height that elite QBs or even very successful QBs have. His accuracy stats were over rated in my opinion because he checks down. You can't teach arm strength or the balls to use it. The guy hasn't beaten a 3 - 4 defense in 2 years and some people are still riding his man parts. Can't figure that one out personally.

 

Maybe time smooths out the peaks and valleys but Tod Collins and Alex Van Pelt were incredibly lack luster QBs in my opinion. They were backups who were given a shot to start after Kelly left. Nothing more. At least they had better talent around them. Hell, Edwards might have been a better prospect than either or both.

[PDaDdy]

Other than Ruben Brown at LG, there were no offensive linemen in the top 20 at their respective positions when Johnson played. I think John Fina was ranked the 22nd best starting LT or something; and guys like Corbin Lacina, Jerry Ostroski, etc., were generally considered good enough to be quality backups, but not answers as starters. Johnson played behind a poor offensive line; which exacerbated his main weakness (taking too many sacks).

 

Antowain Smith was the main running back; and was significantly below-average for a starter. So your "good teams" argument boils down to Eric Moulds and Peerless Price at WR; and perhaps Jay Riemersma at TE. Eric Moulds was a very good receiver--a better and more complete receiver than Lee Evans. Peerless Price was a reasonably good deep burner. However, he was slower than Lee Evans, and was rather one-dimensional. He did very poorly after Buffalo traded him away. Jay Riemersma was a decent, but not great, receiving TE.

 

Overall, Johnson played on a team with some very good weapons (Moulds), a few decent weapons (Price and Riemersma), and a few guys who were below average (Antowain Smith). His offensive line was a significant weakness.

 

Compare that to the supporting cast Losman had in the second half of 2006. He had Jason Peters at LT; and overall was the recipient of much better pass protection than Johnson had while in Buffalo. He had Willis McGahee at RB who, while flawed, was a better player than Antowain Smith. At receiver he had Lee Evans, Josh Reed, Roscoe Parrish, and others. While that was not the equivalent of the receiving corps Johnson had, there was still some talent there (especially Evans). Admittedly he didn't have a Jay Riemersma at TE. But overall, he was nonetheless surrounded by an overall better supporting cast than the one Johnson had.

 

Didn't Rob Johnson play under Wade Phillips when we were consistently in the top 3 in defense for a bout 2 or 3 years? Rob Johnson had a good team around him with the exception of the o-line to an extent. This is that yin an thing again. Our line was mediocre at the time but Johnson made it worse holding on to the ball too long. If Johnson had a quick release and made even quicker decisions that line would of course have been higher ranked.