Jamaal Brown to the Redskins

[Gabe Northern]

its blatantly obvious this is a two year plus plan

 

this season its do the best with what you got and figure out who you have to work with

 

if they get lucky and end up with a lot of good pieces then they fill in the blanks in the offseason and make a playoff push

 

if not then its another cycle of fine tuning and season three becomes make or break

 

four wins

 

This is a recipe for another 10 years out of the playoffs. Brining guys in with pro bowls and experience winning helps teach young players what it takes to succeed. People always ignore this aspect and that's why we are always rebuilding with the latest group of young players.

[BillsVet]

It's called "the market rate for Pro Bowl LT's." The Redskins either will give him a contract averaging about $10M/year, or let him play under his tender and then make a decision. I can only surmise that they feel this is their year to win a SB.

 

Michael Roos signed for 43M over 6 years just two years ago. David Diehl signed a 6 year 31M contract just after Roos. Of course Jordan Gross signed a mega deal, so what exactly is market value for a LOT? It's not like there are a lot of top LOT's getting re-signed. The Skins have leverage now because they're playing the guy at ROT anyway. That position doesn't necessitate as big a contract.

 

First of all, there is no cap this year. Second of all, all they needed to do was have him play for the year under his $3.6M tender, at worst as insurance. They didn't want to do that. And no one else except for the Redskins, who have had a track record of failing miserably with these high priced/profile moves, was willing to make a deal for him, otherwise he wouldn't have been moved for just a 3rd, much less a 4th, rounder.

 

Apparently teams no longer have budgets in years without a cap. You've repeatedly said the Redskins have a poor track record. Well, not with Mike Shanahan at HC and GM Bruce Allen. Go ahead and malign those two, neither are perfect, but they've got a much better track record than Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey. They have a new regime, much like the Bills, so they should get the benefit of the doubt like you're providing for Buffalo's brain trust, right?

 

All NO did was take an asset they deemed unnecessary and parlayed it into a pick and more importantly some financial savings.

 

Again, when a guy who was/is a Pro Bowl LT gets moved for a 3rd or 4th rounder, it's obvious not that many people were interested in him. As for the Raiders, I couldn't care less about what they do.

 

Randy Moss was moved for a 4th. I guess it was because no one was interested in him, right? Teams don't trade top LOT's, unless they've got depth there or they're the Buffalo Bills and need so save face and money when a player is "difficult."

 

It's hard to say whether Gaither, McNeill, or Penn would be "worth" huge contracts. I've heard Gaither has a poor work ethic and there have been suggestions that McNeill does as well. Penn I don't know. But I'd much rather "take a flyer" on those guys, who aren't 29 and coming off a missed season.

 

What if those guys require a 4th round pick? Does that make them not worth it because the asking price is low? All three of those guys will probably need a new contract, and at least a 3rd/4th rounder. And I don't see the Bills in the business of re-signing someone to a big contract, nor giving up draft picks. After all, they're building through the draft and those 3rd of 4th rounders are low-cost roster options.

[NoSaint]

It's called "the market rate for Pro Bowl LT's." The Redskins either will give him a contract averaging about $10M/year, or let him play under his tender and then make a decision. I can only surmise that they feel this is their year to win a SB.

 

First of all, there is no cap this year. Second of all, all they needed to do was have him play for the year under his $3.6M tender, at worst as insurance. They didn't want to do that. And no one else except for the Redskins, who have had a track record of failing miserably with these high priced/profile moves, was willing to make a deal for him, otherwise he wouldn't have been moved for just a 3rd, much less a 4th, rounder.

 

Again, when a guy who was/is a Pro Bowl LT gets moved for a 3rd or 4th rounder, it's obvious not that many people were interested in him. As for the Raiders, I couldn't care less about what they do.

 

It's hard to say whether Gaither, McNeill, or Penn would be "worth" huge contracts. I've heard Gaither has a poor work ethic and there have been suggestions that McNeill does as well. Penn I don't know. But I'd much rather "take a flyer" on those guys, who aren't 29 and coming off a missed season.

 

 

I suppose I would reference that his market rate might be lower -- as its a 3 or 4, with picks coming back, instead of a 1 or 2+

 

It is quite the gap between say a peters who could command that contract, and what brown got for his team. If hes not worth probowl picks, he probably wont get probowl money.

 

Realistically I would expect a contract of maybe 4 years, 25 mill (as a rough estimate).

[Kelly the Dog]

I suppose I would reference that his market rate might be lower -- as its a 3 or 4, with picks coming back, instead of a 1 or 2+

 

It is quite the gap between say a peters who could command that contract, and what brown got for his team. If hes not worth probowl picks, he probably wont get probowl money.

 

Realistically I would expect a contract of maybe 4 years, 25 mill (as a rough estimate).

The Redskins are one of few teams, maybe the only team, to be able to just trade for Brown like that and then not give him a contract extension (although they might). They make a ton of money and they waste a ton of money. If he plays like crap, they just let him go next year. If he plays well, he'll be happy there and they will sign him to a huge contract, likely more than any other team would.

 

They don't care about blowing money, and they really don't care about giving away draft picks. If they don't have a third because of Brown, even if they don't sign him next year, they think, "Who cares? We'll just overpay for a free agent RT" and start him.

[mpl6876]

Don't get me wrong its hard to stay positive with the frustration this team has brought its fans the last 10 years, but the focus has to be on that the new regime has nothing to do with the last 10 years. I know its difficult, but we as fans have to start over with them. It really is possible that Nix, Gailey, and company may know how to turn this team into a winner. I for one have been on board with just about everything they've done or for that matter haven't done. They clearly laid out tidbits of their plan to the fan base and so far have stayed absolutely true to it. They distinctly said they will not be cavalier with trading draft picks, they said they would only sign depth type players in free agency, they believe very strongly in competition at every position, and will build this team through the draft. Right, wrong, or indifferent they are sticking to the plan.

 

I am on board with the plan, I understand their philosophy, and am approaching everything from what I think is their point of view. So I am trying to think like they might even in the Jamaal Brown situation.

 

 

Buffalo, I usually like and agree with your post. I do like your optimism and I do believe we have to give the new regime a chance. With that said. I ask you and others if the new regime is on the right course? I am not sure how the Redskins will do. However, it seems to me that they are choosing a course of action that is more suited to my liking and winning football games. One they hired a winner named Shanahan, two they got a QB named Mcnab, and three they just got their LT Brown. They filled two huge holes (QB and LT). Yet, the Bills haven't filled these two holes??? I know they have filled other needs like the N/T Troup... I am hoping that these two issues will be addressed before the season starts or else I think it's going to be a long season. I am not so sure I agree with the thinking process of this regime. Washington seems to have the mindset of winning and winning now? Whether that happens remains to be seen. Buffalo seems to have the mindset of lets wait, evaluate, develop and try to win in 3 or 4 years? Guess, this is OK if you really do win in 3 years. I am afraid we will be waiting and waiting and waiting... What do you guys think?

[Koufax]

Have we got LTs? Absolutely. Have we got even one LT who can reasonably be expected to perform in, say, the top 80% of LTs in the league? No. We just don't. Could it happen? Sure, guys occasionally have huge unpredictable leaps upward, it happens. It's just extremely rare. If you wanna kid yourself that Bell is likely to be one of those guys, go ahead, be my guest.

 

Thanks. I appreciate your permission to continue kidding myself. Next time I will make sure I submit a written request with your office before doing any self-kidding just to make sure my paperwork is legit.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of our LT situation. I am always going to err on the side of irrational but just barely plausible optimism. But it also appears that our very experienced front office combo of Nix and Gailey seem to think our personnel on hand are qualified to play LT. If they thought it was as dire as you pretend, then they wouldn't have passed on LT for four straight rounds with good players.

 

I'm sure they do feel it is an area that could be improved, and Gaither will remain on their radar if the price is right, but that Bell can not be "reasonably expected" to avoid being one of the six worst LTs I think is more uncertain than you do.

 

But we don't need Bell to be named to the Pro Bowl this year. He can be a solid player if he continues to improve and learn after being thrown to the wolves last year. And if that doesn't happen maybe we can finally have that "top 5 pick" that the "realists" have been insisting on each of the last five years.

 

My money is on 8-8, we forget about the LT situation a few weeks into the season as we get adequate performance from the guys on our roster, and we welcome some of the "realists" back on to the excitement bandwagon for the 2011 season if there is one.

[VADC Bills]

Buffalo, I usually like and agree with your post. I do like your optimism and I do believe we have to give the new regime a chance. With that said. I ask you and others if the new regime is on the right course? I am not sure how the Redskins will do. However, it seems to me that they are choosing a course of action that is more suited to my liking and winning football games. One they hired a winner named Shanahan, two they got a QB named Mcnab, and three they just got their LT Brown. They filled two huge holes (QB and LT). Yet, the Bills haven't filled these two holes??? I know they have filled other needs like the N/T Troup... I am hoping that these two issues will be addressed before the season starts or else I think it's going to be a long season. I am not so sure I agree with the thinking process of this regime. Washington seems to have the mindset of winning and winning now? Whether that happens remains to be seen. Buffalo seems to have the mindset of lets wait, evaluate, develop and try to win in 3 or 4 years? Guess, this is OK if you really do win in 3 years. I am afraid we will be waiting and waiting and waiting... What do you guys think?

The Redskins will do much better this year..their most important move was getting rid of Campbell and getting McNabb.

Campbell single handedly lost about 4-5 games last year. Don't be surprise if this team goes 9-7 maybe 10-6.

The Bills I look at differently. Over the past 3 years they were 7-9, 7-9. 6-10 and that is with the present QB's and no real experience at OC. If Gailey can teach these guys how to play offense better than what they have been doing over the last few years, I think they can improve to 8-8 or 9-7 this year. Keep in mind we were in many games until the 4th quarter last year. A bigger and stronger defense with more depth will play a big part of it.

[mpl6876]

The Redskins will do much better this year..their most important move was getting rid of Campbell and getting McNabb.

Campbell single handedly lost about 4-5 games last year. Don't be surprise if this team goes 9-7 maybe 10-6.

The Bills I look at differently. Over the past 3 years they were 7-9, 7-9. 6-10 and that is with the present QB's and no real experience at OC. If Gailey can teach these guys how to play offense better than what they have been doing over the last few years, I think they can improve to 8-8 or 9-7 this year. Keep in mind we were in many games until the 4th quarter last year. A bigger and stronger defense with more depth will play a big part of it.

 

Thanks for responding. I hope you are right...I just think saying "If Gailey can teach these guys how to play offense better" isn't enough. A coach has to have players (ie) a QB, OL and WR. I feel that Gailey has limited resources. Secondly, I do agree we were in many games last year. However, that doesn't mean a whole to me for a couple of reasons. First, how many of those games we were in did you feel like we were going to win? Secondly, how much of it was due to the break but don't break defense we played? I want to win games not just be in them. Thirdly, a bigger and stronger defense with more depth is great. That is a very general statement and it remains to be seen if the Bills are the above mentioned. Remember a new scheme means new learning curves... I think 8-8 or 9-7 is overly optimistic.

[Malazan]

I would argue if you had a solid left tackle this is a 500 team maybe better. Plus as pointed out earlier it would be nice to see what the quaterbacks could do not running for their lives . Adding one vetern free agent /trade harldy changes the over concept of the front office

 

So you want to sign a guy to huge contract to be a 500 team? A contract that the Superbowl winning Saints (the current Omnipotent gods of Talent Evaluators on TBD) consider a horrible enough proposition to let him go without making much of an attempt to keep him when they don't seem to have a much better backup situation at LT than what the Bills do?

 

What makes that contract better for the Bills than the Saints? Aren't we hoping this regime stops making horrible decisions like the Dockery deal?

[Doc]

Michael Roos signed for 43M over 6 years just two years ago. David Diehl signed a 6 year 31M contract just after Roos. Of course Jordan Gross signed a mega deal, so what exactly is market value for a LOT? It's not like there are a lot of top LOT's getting re-signed. The Skins have leverage now because they're playing the guy at ROT anyway. That position doesn't necessitate as big a contract.

Two years ago is two years ago. Last year players got $10M/year. And if both sides are talking contract, Brown won't care that they're playing him at RT. He's been a LT all his career and will want to be paid at that position. If the Redskins are just planning on keeping him for a year, thinking they have a chance to win it all this year, that's a different story and a waste of picks and money.

Apparently teams no longer have budgets in years without a cap. You've repeatedly said the Redskins have a poor track record. Well, not with Mike Shanahan at HC and GM Bruce Allen. Go ahead and malign those two, neither are perfect, but they've got a much better track record than Buddy Nix and Chan Gailey. They have a new regime, much like the Bills, so they should get the benefit of the doubt like you're providing for Buffalo's brain trust, right?

You made it sound like the Saints were close to the salary cap. I was saying that $3.6M in insurance for a $13M QB is worth it, if he's as good as you're claiming.

Randy Moss was moved for a 4th. I guess it was because no one was interested in him, right? Teams don't trade top LOT's, unless they've got depth there or they're the Buffalo Bills and need so save face and money when a player is "difficult."

Moss also said that he'd only play for the Patriots. I already said that Brown probably told the Saints he wouldn't play for Buffalo. That is, IF the Bills were interested in him.

What if those guys require a 4th round pick? Does that make them not worth it because the asking price is low? All three of those guys will probably need a new contract, and at least a 3rd/4th rounder. And I don't see the Bills in the business of re-signing someone to a big contract, nor giving up draft picks. After all, they're building through the draft and those 3rd of 4th rounders are low-cost roster options.

I think the whole "building through the draft" thing is overplayed. What they probably meant is that they're going with younger players. Not trading for 29 year old players coming off injury. And I wouldn't expect those players to go for less than a 3rd rounder, if even that low.

[Kelly the Dog]

So you want to sign a guy to huge contract to be a 500 team? A contract that the Superbowl winning Saints (the current Omnipotent gods of Talent Evaluators on TBD) consider a horrible enough proposition to let him go without making much of an attempt to keep him when they don't seem to have a much better backup situation at LT than what the Bills do?

 

What makes that contract better for the Bills than the Saints? Aren't we hoping this regime stops making horrible decisions like the Dockery deal?

Well, the Saints drafted Charles Brown of USC to be their back-up LT, a guy who would have a decent chance to start for the Bills. And second, not only do I really doubt that before the season starts, Brown gets $50 million (although anything is possible with the Redskins), but we definitely want the new regime to pay players like the Dockery deal, just not Dockery.

 

I would have liked for the Bills to have taken a chance on Brown, but no one in the world knows if he is going to be his old self, a new self, or a washed up self. He was great once, regressed a little, missed an entire year, and now is back. It's just guesswork by anyone acquiring him.

 

And as stated above, the Skins traded for him to play RT, not LT. They have Trent Williams to play LT, and apparently that's where they are keeping him.

[NoSaint]

So you want to sign a guy to huge contract to be a 500 team? A contract that the Superbowl winning Saints (the current Omnipotent gods of Talent Evaluators on TBD) consider a horrible enough proposition to let him go without making much of an attempt to keep him when they don't seem to have a much better backup situation at LT than what the Bills do?

 

What makes that contract better for the Bills than the Saints? Aren't we hoping this regime stops making horrible decisions like the Dockery deal?

 

 

 

The saints have a much better situation. Bushrod would start here, Strief would start here, Stinchcomb is a pro bowler, they drafted charles brown in the second this year. whoever starts here would not even make the saints team.

 

That said, they have to make choices too -- finances, and chemistry. Also, the hip injury that everyone harps on for keeping him out last year, should be the least of concerns -- He has a bad back, and bad knees -- worrisome for a 30 yr old lineman. it wasnt just talent that caused them to cut and move on. the player lining up day one of this season for the redskins has pro bowl potential. My main concern would be for how many years. They had the depth to move on. We do not.

 

Jammal would be a starter on the saints team week one if he wanted to be there, dont fool yourself. He was very upset with the front office for both the contract, and his injury situation (was healthy before the playoffs, resents not being able to be a part of everything). I had first heard rumblings of sour relationships back in 08 though, on both sides. In the end, he didnt even go to the ring ceremony this week. Also, to be frank, Loomis and Payton have been known to hold grudges, and close the door on people that upset them personally.

 

Brown wouldnt be the great savior for this team but that is incredible value for a player of his caliber. Couple that with the fact there is a glaring need for talent up front, and it is questionable. If they do chase McNeill (same chronic back problems as brown), Gaither (work ethic questions), or Penn (weight issues), or draft a guy high next year (crapshoot -- Mike Williams?), there are no promises they will find higher quality, and all of those would be more expensive both in picks spent and money.

 

Given the low cost, if nothing is done this year, I will be disappointed/worried, but we have yet to see how this will all play out...

[NoSaint]

Two years ago is two years ago. Last year players got $10M/year. And if both sides are talking contract, Brown won't care that they're playing him at RT. He's been a LT all his career and will want to be paid at that position. If the Redskins are just planning on keeping him for a year, thinking they have a chance to win it all this year, that's a different story and a waste of picks and money.

 

You made it sound like the Saints were close to the salary cap. I was saying that $3.6M in insurance for a $13M QB is worth it, if he's as good as you're claiming.

 

Moss also said that he'd only play for the Patriots. I already said that Brown probably told the Saints he wouldn't play for Buffalo. That is, IF the Bills were interested in him.

 

I think the whole "building through the draft" thing is overplayed. What they probably meant is that they're going with younger players. Not trading for 29 year old players coming off injury. And I wouldn't expect those players to go for less than a 3rd rounder, if even that low.

 

 

I will agree it is wholly possible he would "veto" a trade to buffalo by refusing to sign long term. He is well worth the 3.6M for one year, but to simplify it that much is overdoing it. You have issues of team chemistry, carrying 5 tackles on the roster, and getting compensation while you can. I wont forget to mention, loomis and payton are both borderline spiteful when a player gets in the dog house, and brown was in theirs for several reasons. Whether those are justified, I am not 100% sure.

[mob16151]

I thought Brown was coming off a hip injury, not a knee?

[Kelly the Dog]

I thought Brown was coming off a hip injury, not a knee?

 

I thought it was a sports hernia.

[mob16151]

I thought it was a sports hernia.

 

 

It was both

 

Brown, a two-time Pro Bowl selection and the man responsible for protecting quarterback Drew Brees' blindside, underwent surgical procedures to repair a sports hernia and a hip injury last month and will miss the entire season, the Saints' release said.

 

http://www.nola.com/saints/index.ssf/2009/...place_left.html

[Dr. K]

We have a LT. We have several. The coaching staff passed on LTs in the first four rounds with a pretty good understanding of our personnel. I expect Bell to have a better and healthier 2010 than 2009. I don't think he will make the pro bowl. Can he be passable and have us not talking about a "hole at LT" all season? Absolutely. Will he? We will have to wait and see.

 

Losing a second rounder in the second draft for a new GM with a scouting expertise only makes sense if the value is there. If they think the Gaither-Bell upgrade is not as great as we think, and the dollars it would cost will hurt in other areas (forget the cap, whatever Ralph allows is what we have and spending it smartly still matters), then giving up a second would be silly.

 

The equation is if:

 

Gaither > (Bell + 2011 2nd + Gaither extension dollars spent elsewhere)

 

That's a lot of potential value on the right side. Everyone acts like all we have to give up is a 2nd that would be wasted on a Parrish or Hardy. But it is more complicated than that, and I trust Chan/Nix are better off at evaluating the each of those pieces and how they impact the ability to get the Bills to the playoffs.

 

I would still love to see Gaither as a Bill, but I would also be happy to see Bell do well, and the Bills keep building with an impact player with next year's 2nd rounder.

 

+1

 

very rational analysis

[Dr. K]

It doesn't mean that at all. There are always numerous elements to these things all working simultaneously, and if we're not privy to what is going on between all of these elements, we really don't know. Sure, it's good to postulate, and I do it all the time, so I am not blaming you. But we have no idea what is going on with the LTs.

 

1] Coaches are almost always going to talk up a player in a case like this, Bell, if he is the projected starter. They need him to have all the confidence he can possibly muster. He may end up being the best option they have. Not only that, but Gailey could be completely honest about "loving his athleticism" and still believe that he's a terrible LT right now. Athleticism doesnt mean he thinks he's good or even serviceable, it only means he has a chance someday to maybe be good.

 

2] The Bills may like Gaither a lot, and want him, and think he's twice as good as what they have, but not be able or willing to pull off the trade because they think that the combination of the asking price, the new contract demands, and the off the field/effort worries are just short of being worth it. So they are unwilling to make the move right now. It doesn't mean they like Bell, it doesn't mean they don't like Gaither, it only means that the combination of factors make the risk reward pendulum swing a tad too far toward the risk side. (I'm not saying they do or don't, just that non moves do not always tell us anything about what they like or don't like in a player)

 

3] Nix and Gailey know they are not going to fix all of the massive leaks in this team in one year. They attempted to fix about four major ones and have at least that many to go. That doesn't at all mean they are happy with Bell and Meredith, it ONLY means that at the time they had to make a decision on draft day, they thought Spiller or Troup or perhaps Carrington would ultimately be better players in the long term than any LT they could have taken right at that moment.

 

4] Then again, they may really love Bell, but that's VERY hard to believe considering what he has shown. They could love his potential, and athleticism, and know that he was put in an impossible situation last year, but he doesn't appear to many people to be ready to play LT in this league and hasnt even practiced in front of Nix and Gailey yet. For all we know, they have really liked Meredith from what they have seen and think he is going to be their starter. But they havent put on pads yet.

 

 

+1

 

Nice job--rational, balanced analysis. Why, you don't even write as if your hair is on fire.

[Buffalonian-at-Heart]

All the junior GM's here ought to ask themselves why 30 other teams, not just the Bills, didn't get into a bidding war? Is it that they are all so much dumber than the Redskins?

 

PTR

 

Not that your point doesn't have some validity, but the overwhelming majority of teams have their LT as it's obviously one of the most important positions on the field.

[Thoner7]

They must be very impressed with Trent Williams to make a move like this....

 

I am not suprised.