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Posted
$$$$, and shortsightedness. This only turns out dumb if/when Brees get crunched from the left.

Bushrod, according to profootballfocus, surrendered 8 sacks last year. And Brown's tender is only for $3.6M. They could keep him for the year, see how progress on the new CBA goes, and go from there.

 

Either that or "People who have watched him" aren't as talented at judging players as the Saints coaching staff . . .?

Well, the Redskins looked to be the only team interested in him.

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Posted
I love how its such a noble cause to build through the draft and bring in young players, ignoring the gaping trauma inducing hole on your club.

 

Its like test driving a new car that doesn't have breaks because you want to save money and be able to buy the right brakes for it. In the meantime you'll just recklessly drive your four wheel hazard and smash it to pieces.

 

 

Without a LT this team won't be able to;

- Evaluate any of its QB's

- understand how good Spiller might be

- develop it young WR corp

 

We get to watch another whole season of QB's scrambling, 3rd and 12's and 14 punt games

 

We have a LT. We have several. The coaching staff passed on LTs in the first four rounds with a pretty good understanding of our personnel. I expect Bell to have a better and healthier 2010 than 2009. I don't think he will make the pro bowl. Can he be passable and have us not talking about a "hole at LT" all season? Absolutely. Will he? We will have to wait and see.

 

Losing a second rounder in the second draft for a new GM with a scouting expertise only makes sense if the value is there. If they think the Gaither-Bell upgrade is not as great as we think, and the dollars it would cost will hurt in other areas (forget the cap, whatever Ralph allows is what we have and spending it smartly still matters), then giving up a second would be silly.

 

The equation is if:

 

Gaither > (Bell + 2011 2nd + Gaither extension dollars spent elsewhere)

 

That's a lot of potential value on the right side. Everyone acts like all we have to give up is a 2nd that would be wasted on a Parrish or Hardy. But it is more complicated than that, and I trust Chan/Nix are better off at evaluating the each of those pieces and how they impact the ability to get the Bills to the playoffs.

 

I would still love to see Gaither as a Bill, but I would also be happy to see Bell do well, and the Bills keep building with an impact player with next year's 2nd rounder.

Posted
True enough, but aren't you oversimplifying? Oher stubs a toe and Gaither is cemented into Raven purple, but they lose a DB and . . . not so much. Not that your wrong, but the Ravens aren't a perfect football team, any more than any of the other 31. Ozzie has needs and wants, too. There's a tipping point that will make Gaither more valuable as a trade commodity than as a disgruntled RT.

 

Or then again, we wait till next year and get him to protect the young stud we draft in round one with pick number 10.

 

 

I think Ozzie has made his mind up. The similar situation was Michael Turner when the Chargers were thinking about trading him. People went on and on about how San Diego surely couldn't just let him go, that they would surely lower their offer. They didn't.

 

And in the case of Turner, he would have been worth it, even at San Diego's price. I think Gaither would too, but that's just my opinion. What you can generally count on, though, is that Ozzie doesn't change his mind easily. And no DB we're going to give up is going to make a difference in the Ravens' Super Bowl fortunes.

 

 

If there are any young studs left at #10 next year, maybe you're right.

Posted
This is the crux of the problem with fans. It's a huge need for *you*, not "us" or "The Bills".

 

They've stated that they want 'young'. Brown is not young. Why would they throw away their philosophy for one player?

 

As much as we want to bash on Bell, Wang, etc...The Bills don't know what they have and if the project is such a huge rebuild then signing this one player before you've been able to evaluate your station would be stupid. If they sign Brown to a big extension then they are locked into him for however long that extension is for and that would likely be 2-3 years for a guy coming off an injury.

 

Last year was bad for many players on the Offensive line, but considering the competence level of the coaching staff. No one knows if some of these guys are salvageable.

 

What I really fail to grasp is that the same people who put this team as one step above a little league team want to make signings to 'win now'. If the Bills are so far away how does singing s player that won't be here or will be too old by the time they're ready to compete help or does Jamal Brown make them an instant contender? Seriously?

 

It's entirely possible that he's a great player and could provide a huge boost, but a player seeking a large extension coming off a serious injury and was on a Superbowl winning team may not be the most motivated person in the world to give his all to a team who's playoff prospects look dim.

 

Can we all stop being the kid desperate for a date to the prom? We don't need to ask our cousin to go just because we don't have a date yet. I'd rather get the 'right' player than overpay another offensive lineman who isn't going to be what's needed just because he is a name we heard on ESPN at some point and doesn't play for the Bills.

 

I would argue if you had a solid left tackle this is a 500 team maybe better. Plus as pointed out earlier it would be nice to see what the quaterbacks could do not running for their lives . Adding one vetern free agent /trade harldy changes the over concept of the front office

Posted
We have a LT. We have several. The coaching staff passed on LTs in the first four rounds with a pretty good understanding of our personnel. I expect Bell to have a better and healthier 2010 than 2009. I don't think he will make the pro bowl. Can he be passable and have us not talking about a "hole at LT" all season? Absolutely. Will he? We will have to wait and see.

 

Losing a second rounder in the second draft for a new GM with a scouting expertise only makes sense if the value is there. If they think the Gaither-Bell upgrade is not as great as we think, and the dollars it would cost will hurt in other areas (forget the cap, whatever Ralph allows is what we have and spending it smartly still matters), then giving up a second would be silly.

 

The equation is if:

 

Gaither > (Bell + 2011 2nd + Gaither extension dollars spent elsewhere)

 

That's a lot of potential value on the right side. Everyone acts like all we have to give up is a 2nd that would be wasted on a Parrish or Hardy. But it is more complicated than that, and I trust Chan/Nix are better off at evaluating the each of those pieces and how they impact the ability to get the Bills to the playoffs.

 

I would still love to see Gaither as a Bill, but I would also be happy to see Bell do well, and the Bills keep building with an impact player with next year's 2nd rounder.

 

 

 

Have we got LTs? Absolutely. Have we got even one LT who can reasonably be expected to perform in, say, the top 80% of LTs in the league? No. We just don't. Could it happen? Sure, guys occasionally have huge unpredictable leaps upward, it happens. It's just extremely rare. If you wanna kid yourself that Bell is likely to be one of those guys, go ahead, be my guest.

Posted
Have we got LTs? Absolutely. Have we got even one LT who can reasonably be expected to perform in, say, the top 80% of LTs in the league? No. We just don't. Could it happen? Sure, guys occasionally have huge unpredictable leaps upward, it happens. It's just extremely rare. If you wanna kid yourself that Bell is likely to be one of those guys, go ahead, be my guest.

"Top 80% of LT's?" That's a top-6 LT. That's expecting a lot. And who said you need a top-6 LT to succeed?

Posted
I love how its such a noble cause to build through the draft and bring in young players, ignoring the gaping trauma inducing hole on your club.

 

Jammal Brown may have been injured in 2009, but he represents a player who's performed at a high level. Bell, Meredith, Wang, Ramsey, Watkins, and Green have never done that. People charge that it's wrong to take a flyer on a former All-Pro. Well, I'd rather surrender a 4th and have it go wrong than bank on unproven talent found on the clearance rack that could significantly impact the entire offense all season. And that's precisely what happened in 2009. Funny how history repeats itself with this team.

 

After 10 years of failure, hearing about rebuilding over the a 2-3 year stretch isn't good enough. That is, if they have the time. I am amazed at how merely hiring new people gives people hope. Hope based on what? Their proven track record of hitting on draft picks and winning playoff games?

Posted

Thurman, you're an excellent poster and I want to comment on a few.

 

Pretty solid, yeah, but he's (Marcus McNeill) not getting out of San Diego as much as he might like to.

Of course neither of us know if Marcus McNeill will be moved by San Diego but consider this. The rhetoric from both sides has escalated to full out war. Egos are at stake, people are seriously pissed off and both sides claim that they will NOT back down. Look at Smith's remarks about McNeill and Vincent Jackson.

 

"We lost a couple of great players today, and it hurts. We are trying to build a championship team, and losing the services of both Vincent and Marcus just made that more difficult — but not impossible. In due time, coach (Norv) Turner will name two new starters. We will rally as a team, compete and try to win as many games as we can."

 

But actions speak louder than words. Because both players didn't sign by the June 15th deadline, Smith spitefully reduced their contract offers to $2.5 million below their tenders. And this is action was not required. It was optional, and AJ Smith took the option of reducing their compensation for 2010 by about two thirds. Smith also acquired OT Tra Thomas and WR Josh Reed as insurance for McNeill and Jackson, both of whom have said they will skip mandatory minicamp and hold out this year.

 

Yes, this could be posturing on both sides, but the fact that replacement players have been acquired as insurance, that substantial money has been taken off the table, and that all sides are ratcheting up the tough talk leads me to believe that there is a chance that McNeill will never play for the Chargers again.

 

Unfortunately, the market doesn't set the price for Gaither. Ozzie Newsome does. A seller who isn't willing to lower the price because he doesn't need to sell ... sets the market and doesn't care if nobody meets the price. And Ozzie doesn't screw around. He's made it clear that he won't trade him for less than a second. Believe it. The Ravens think they have a Super Bowl shot this year, and they'll have a better chance with Gaither on the OL.

Well, this might be a criticism of semantics, but I disagree that Ozzie Newsome sets the market price.

 

Unless someone has the market cornered, they don't set the market price. Ozzie only sets his selling price. If he is asking for more than the market price, then he's ignoring the market price, not setting it.

 

We know what Washington paid for Jammal Brown. We know Jared Gaither could probably still be had (the Ravens acquired him with a 5th rounder in the supplemental draft). We know Flozell Adams is still unsigned and available. It's possible Marcus McNeill will be made available in a trade. So I disagree with the statement that Ozzie sets the market price. Small point maybe, but there it is.

Posted
Jammal Brown may have been injured in 2009, but he represents a player who's performed at a high level. Bell, Meredith, Wang, Ramsey, Watkins, and Green have never done that. People charge that it's wrong to take a flyer on a former All-Pro. Well, I'd rather surrender a 4th and have it go wrong than bank on unproven talent found on the clearance rack that could significantly impact the entire offense all season. And that's precisely what happened in 2009. Funny how history repeats itself with this team.

LOL! You'd rather trade a pick and pay a guy upwards of $9-10M/year, or let him walk in a year, so you can "take a flyer" on him? Why didn't the Saints "take a flyer" on him for $3.6M for the year, at worst as insurance? Why hasn't anyone else jumped into the fray?

 

You want to talk about history repeating itself, say that about the Redskins, if anyone.

Thurman, you're an excellent poster and I want to comment on a few.

 

 

Of course neither of us know if Marcus McNeill will be moved by San Diego but consider this. The rhetoric from both sides has escalated to full out war. Egos are at stake, people are seriously pissed off and both sides claim that they will NOT back down. Look at Smith's remarks about McNeill and Vincent Jackson.

 

"We lost a couple of great players today, and it hurts. We are trying to build a championship team, and losing the services of both Vincent and Marcus just made that more difficult — but not impossible. In due time, coach (Norv) Turner will name two new starters. We will rally as a team, compete and try to win as many games as we can."

 

But actions speak louder than words. Because both players didn't sign by the June 15th deadline, Smith spitefully reduced their contract offers to $2.5 million below their tenders. And this is action was not required. It was optional, and AJ Smith took the option of reducing their compensation for 2010 by about two thirds. Smith also acquired OT Tra Thomas and WR Josh Reed as insurance for McNeill and Jackson, both of whom have said they will skip mandatory minicamp and hold out this year.

 

Yes, this could be posturing on both sides, but the fact that replacement players have been acquired as insurance, that substantial money has been taken off the table, and that all sides are ratcheting up the tough talk leads me to believe that there is a chance that McNeill will never play for the Chargers again.

 

 

Well, this might be a criticism of semantics, but I disagree that Ozzie Newsome sets the market price.

 

Unless someone has the market cornered, they don't set the market price. Ozzie only sets his selling price. If he is asking for more than the market price, then he's ignoring the market price, not setting it.

 

We know what Washington paid for Jammal Brown. We know Jared Gaither could probably still be had (the Ravens acquired him with a 5th rounder in the supplemental draft). We know Flozell Adams is still unsigned and available. It's possible Marcus McNeill will be made available in a trade. So I disagree with the statement that Ozzie sets the market price. Small point maybe, but there it is.

There are 3 good LT's who have no signed their RFA tenders: Gaither, McNeill, and Donald Penn. Those situations are geting uglier by the minute. If I were Nix, I'd wait a little longer and then swoop-in.

Posted
Thurman, you're an excellent poster and I want to comment on a few.

 

 

Of course neither of us know if Marcus McNeill will be moved by San Diego but consider this. The rhetoric from both sides has escalated to full out war. Egos are at stake, people are seriously pissed off and both sides claim that they will NOT back down. Look at Smith's remarks about McNeill and Vincent Jackson.

 

"We lost a couple of great players today, and it hurts. We are trying to build a championship team, and losing the services of both Vincent and Marcus just made that more difficult — but not impossible. In due time, coach (Norv) Turner will name two new starters. We will rally as a team, compete and try to win as many games as we can."

 

But actions speak louder than words. Because both players didn't sign by the June 15th deadline, Smith spitefully reduced their contract offers to $2.5 million below their tenders. And this is action was not required. It was optional, and AJ Smith took the option of reducing their compensation for 2010 by about two thirds. Smith also acquired OT Tra Thomas and WR Josh Reed as insurance for McNeill and Jackson, both of whom have said they will skip mandatory minicamp and hold out this year.

 

Yes, this could be posturing on both sides, but the fact that replacement players have been acquired as insurance, that substantial money has been taken off the table, and that all sides are ratcheting up the tough talk leads me to believe that there is a chance that McNeill will never play for the Chargers again.

 

Pegged is the only thing I can say & each side is digging in for the long haul, let's make it a short haul to Buffalo.

Posted
LOL! You'd rather trade a pick and pay a guy upwards of $9-10M/year, or let him walk in a year, so you can "take a flyer" on him? Why didn't the Saints "take a flyer" on him for $3.6M for the year, at worst as insurance? Why hasn't anyone else jumped into the fray?

 

You want to talk about history repeating itself, say that about the Redskins, if anyone.

 

There are 3 good LT's who have no signed their RFA tenders: Gaither, McNeill, and Donald Penn. Those situations are geting uglier by the minute. If I were Nix, I'd wait a little longer and then swoop-in.

 

Keep laughing. Who's saying that Brown is demanding 9-10M per? You are.

 

The Saints had multiple FA's that they re-signed and had a serviceable young OT in Bushrod. Their hierarchy chose to spend money on re-signing Brees, MLB Vilma and 1st team All-Pro G Jahri Evans. They, like everyone, had to make a choice with their money. Oh, and BTW they've got Marcus Colston coming up as well. Boy are they crazy for not re-signing a guy at a position they had depth at.

 

And for the record, perhaps teams did express interest and NO chose the Redskins' offer. You're making a ton of assumptions to support a weak point in defense of a moribund NFL franchise that doesn't have ONE proven NFL OT. If that's your argument, why didn't OAK re-sign Cornell Green?

 

The Buffalo Bills will not make a trade for any of the group you mentioned: Gaither, McNeill, or Donald Penn. And you will be back to say they weren't worth it. Well, come September when Bell, Meredith, and Wang are struggling, you'll be back to say it was a rebuilding year anyway.

Posted

All the junior GM's here ought to ask themselves why 30 other teams, not just the Bills, didn't get into a bidding war? Is it that they are all so much dumber than the Redskins?

 

PTR

Posted
I think Ozzie has made his mind up. The similar situation was Michael Turner when the Chargers were thinking about trading him. People went on and on about how San Diego surely couldn't just let him go, that they would surely lower their offer. They didn't.

While I agree the situations are somewhat similar, it depends on what "lower their offer" meant in the case of Michael Turner. Publicly, IIRC, the offer was for a #1 pick. There were quite a few stories at that time that the Chargers would definitely take a #2 for him. I wanted the Bills to jump on that and make the trade and posted here as such. But obviously they never did. I don't think any team offered San Diego a #2 for Turner, let alone a #1, and AJ wasnt willing to give him up for a #3, which is a big difference.

Posted

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=...amp;eid=5306133

 

I'm not sure how they couldn't match that offer with a guaranteed 3rd? No picks are lost except for maybe the 2012 6th rounder. You have to wonder if Brown would sign the tender to be traded to Buffalo? But the asking price for Gaither just went down.

 

They could have, but obviously didn't think Brown was worth it. Does anyone recall Buddy Nix saying he believes they have a good LT already on the roster?? Brown is 30, coming off a serious hip injury, and the team that drafted him was ready to part ways. Nix and Gailey said they want to go young (30 is young, but in football terms). Gaither or McNeil would be better trade options if they want to trade. Those two would fit the youth requirement.

 

But I wish folks would get it through their heads, Nix and Gailey like Bell and his athleticism. They've seen him up close. They've watched all of his film, I'm sure not just game film, but practice film as well. They know what he's capable of. Remember Bell has played football for, what, five years of his life? He can get better at executing technique, but you can't teach his athletic ability. The Bills have a lot of young players and watch a good number be better this season. A year wiser, a year stronger. Not everybody is a stud right away.

Posted
The Buffalo Bills will not make a trade for any of the group you mentioned: Gaither, McNeill, or Donald Penn. And you will be back to say they weren't worth it. Well, come September when Bell, Meredith, and Wang are struggling, you'll be back to say it was a rebuilding year anyway.

 

Who said they will struggle? Last year is last year. This is a new year, different coaches, etc. Because a player didn't set the world on fire last year means they never will or don't have that capability? Bell didn't do anything good last year? I know that's not true, because I saw a lot of plays when he had his man blocked in the run game and pass game; he moves well and has a lot of athleticism. He needed to get stronger and get more experience. We know by playing he got more experience and I would be willing to bet he's stronger. Not saying he will be an all pro, but could he be a good LT this coming season? Yes.

 

Nix knows what he's doing. He needed a MLB with 3-4 experience. He signed Davis. He needed a DE with 3-4 experience, he signed Edwards. He needed another RT option, he signed Green. He said they needed playmakers, he drafted Spiller and Easley. He said they needed to get bigger up front on the D line. He drafted Troupe and Carrington. I could go on... The guy does what he says he will do. Obviously he thinks highly of Bell and is willing to see if Bell can put it together.

Posted

i don't honestly believe that trading "price" is holding up a Gaither deal. rather, it's Gaither himself, and his agent Drew [Nut]haus. there is no way buddy can pull the trigger until a long-term deal is negotiated, and the player/agent just won't do it now. why should they? there could be 3 other teams to play off each other later. all can offer the same draft pick, but if the player won't sign, there won't be a deal.

 

if he was already signed to a somewhat reasonable long-term deal, he would probably be in Buffalo(or somewhere else) by now. so, if it's possible, maybe we'll do it.

 

BTW, check out J.Brown on PFF everyone:

http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_player....p;playerid=2230

 

he hasn't been spectacular the last couple years he played('07&'08), and didn't play at all last year. that's probly why he didn't sell for very much, and the saints let him go. F.Adams has been much worse in recent times, and the consensus seems to be that he doesn't have much left to give.

 

i'd love to see J.G. here at LT, for sure. he really is quite talented. but let's have none of that "ooh, i think i need a new contract this week" BS anymore. i'd plug in J.Meredith rather than deal with any of that.

 

~AS

Posted
http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=...amp;eid=5306133

 

I'm not sure how they couldn't match that offer with a guaranteed 3rd? No picks are lost except for maybe the 2012 6th rounder. You have to wonder if Brown would sign the tender to be traded to Buffalo? But the asking price for Gaither just went down.

 

 

They could have, but obviously didn't think Brown was worth it. Does anyone recall Buddy Nix saying he believes they have a good LT already on the roster?? Brown is 30, coming off a serious knee injury, and the team that drafted him was ready to part ways. Nix and Gailey said they want to go young (30 is young, but in football terms). Gaither or McNeil would be better trade options if they want to trade. Those two would fit the youth requirement. But I wish folks would get it through their heads, Nix and Gailey like Bell and his athleticism. They've seen him up close. They've watched all of his film, I'm sure not just game film, but practice film as well. They know what he's capable of. Remember Bell has played football for, what, five years of his life? He can get better at executing technique, but you can't teach his athletic ability. The Bills have a lot of young players and watch a good number be better this season. A year wiser, a year stronger. Not everybody is a stud right away.

 

As much as it galls the football gurus here, Gailey and Nix must feel they have the horses that can get the job done right now. Gailey has said he thinks D. Bell is an extraordinary athlete.

 

PTR

Posted
Keep laughing. Who's saying that Brown is demanding 9-10M per? You are.

It's called "the market rate for Pro Bowl LT's." The Redskins either will give him a contract averaging about $10M/year, or let him play under his tender and then make a decision. I can only surmise that they feel this is their year to win a SB.

The Saints had multiple FA's that they re-signed and had a serviceable young OT in Bushrod. Their hierarchy chose to spend money on re-signing Brees, MLB Vilma and 1st team All-Pro G Jahri Evans. They, like everyone, had to make a choice with their money. Oh, and BTW they've got Marcus Colston coming up as well. Boy are they crazy for not re-signing a guy at a position they had depth at.

First of all, there is no cap this year. Second of all, all they needed to do was have him play for the year under his $3.6M tender, at worst as insurance. They didn't want to do that. And no one else except for the Redskins, who have had a track record of failing miserably with these high priced/profile moves, was willing to make a deal for him, otherwise he wouldn't have been moved for just a 3rd, much less a 4th, rounder.

And for the record, perhaps teams did express interest and NO chose the Redskins' offer. You're making a ton of assumptions to support a weak point in defense of a moribund NFL franchise that doesn't have ONE proven NFL OT. If that's your argument, why didn't OAK re-sign Cornell Green?

Again, when a guy who was/is a Pro Bowl LT gets moved for a 3rd or 4th rounder, it's obvious not that many people were interested in him. As for the Raiders, I couldn't care less about what they do.

The Buffalo Bills will not make a trade for any of the group you mentioned: Gaither, McNeill, or Donald Penn. And you will be back to say they weren't worth it. Well, come September when Bell, Meredith, and Wang are struggling, you'll be back to say it was a rebuilding year anyway.

It's hard to say whether Gaither, McNeill, or Penn would be "worth" huge contracts. I've heard Gaither has a poor work ethic and there have been suggestions that McNeill does as well. Penn I don't know. But I'd much rather "take a flyer" on those guys, who aren't 29 and coming off a missed season.

Posted
As much as it galls the football gurus here, Gailey and Nix must feel they have the horses that can get the job done right now. Gailey has said he thinks D. Bell is an extraordinary athlete.

 

PTR

It doesn't mean that at all. There are always numerous elements to these things all working simultaneously, and if we're not privy to what is going on between all of these elements, we really don't know. Sure, it's good to postulate, and I do it all the time, so I am not blaming you. But we have no idea what is going on with the LTs.

 

1] Coaches are almost always going to talk up a player in a case like this, Bell, if he is the projected starter. They need him to have all the confidence he can possibly muster. He may end up being the best option they have. Not only that, but Gailey could be completely honest about "loving his athleticism" and still believe that he's a terrible LT right now. Athleticism doesnt mean he thinks he's good or even serviceable, it only means he has a chance someday to maybe be good.

 

2] The Bills may like Gaither a lot, and want him, and think he's twice as good as what they have, but not be able or willing to pull off the trade because they think that the combination of the asking price, the new contract demands, and the off the field/effort worries are just short of being worth it. So they are unwilling to make the move right now. It doesn't mean they like Bell, it doesn't mean they don't like Gaither, it only means that the combination of factors make the risk reward pendulum swing a tad too far toward the risk side. (I'm not saying they do or don't, just that non moves do not always tell us anything about what they like or don't like in a player)

 

3] Nix and Gailey know they are not going to fix all of the massive leaks in this team in one year. They attempted to fix about four major ones and have at least that many to go. That doesn't at all mean they are happy with Bell and Meredith, it ONLY means that at the time they had to make a decision on draft day, they thought Spiller or Troup or perhaps Carrington would ultimately be better players in the long term than any LT they could have taken right at that moment.

 

4] Then again, they may really love Bell, but that's VERY hard to believe considering what he has shown. They could love his potential, and athleticism, and know that he was put in an impossible situation last year, but he doesn't appear to many people to be ready to play LT in this league and hasnt even practiced in front of Nix and Gailey yet. For all we know, they have really liked Meredith from what they have seen and think he is going to be their starter. But they havent put on pads yet.

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