Tux of Borg Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 On a tangent, I will say that this is one BIG reason I'm against wireless networking -- if you don't know what you're doing (and most home users don't), it'd be trivial for a neighbor to download stuff under your name and get you in trouble for it. I havn't heard of this happening yet, but I don't see why it could. From my living room alone, I can get 10 wireless signals and of those, 5 of them are unprotected. In other words, I could download illegal stuff from the homes of those 5 people and they'd get blamed for it, not me. Wireless is bad IMHO. Anyway, off to bed; hope the thread doesn't die by tomorrow morning. CW 142214[/snapback] I haven't looked too much into the Internet2 project yet. The way I see it, everything will be wireless in the future. Take a look at Europe now, you can already use cell phone towers to get wireless access to the Internet. Imagine the hacker problem they will have in a few years! I think in the near future you are going to see more anonymous projects, such as Eternity and freenetproject.org. The same thing with anonymous protocols, such as the manolito (aka blubster) protocol.
DC Tom Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 I look at it this way... of course it's wrong. But then again, you have to pick your battles. When I was 17, my parents knew I drank with my friends. They let me know the issues associated with it and the trouble I could get in. However, they were smart enough to know that whatever they did (short of literally locking me in my room) at age 17, I was going to go out and have drinks with my friends. That being said, my dad always told me that no matter what, no matter where, and no matter at what time, if i ever needed a ride, if I was ever in trouble, to call him. When I was 19 on St. Patty's day, I called my dad for a ride home at 4:00am. He was asleep, and I felt bad for doing it, but he thanked me for doing it. If I had had parents who didn't pick their battles, and told me that drinking was wrong, and I should never do it, I would STILL do it (kids do things like that, no way around it) I would have been scared to call him for a ride, and god knows what ditch they would have dug me out of. You may or may not agree with this (which of course AD and DC Tom wont) but whatever. To bring this to a point of this topic, at least we know that Tracy and her son communicate. He is close enough to her to tell her what he is doing ,with no fear that she will go nuts. She obviously knows how to "protect" him, somewhat, by making sure he isnt SHARING the files, so she knows the subject at least a bit. IF she told her son "NEVER DL a song or else!", he would still do it, hiding it from her, and maybe she wouldnt be sure he wasn't sharing. Then, he gets in deep crap. Again, its all about picking your battles. I can just imaging that AD's kids live by "you WILL NOT drink until you are 21, NEVER EVER download anything, and if you EVER have sex before marriage, I will take my 12 gauge out and make sure you never use that thing again!" These are the kids that end up drinking themselves to death, becoming hackers, and getting pregnant at 17 because they didnt have their dad there to say, "if you're gonna do it, use a rubber". Turning a blind eye, or demanding kids don't ever do anything wrong is simply naive. The comparison of download a song and stealing a stereo are off base and you both know it. Again, I think that he should buy the products (as for the very least, he will get better quality), but he's a kid, and it is good to see he at least has enough parental support where he isnt scared to ask his mother a question . Now, DC Tom and AD, please go through this and tell me what words I spelled wrong, as I'm sure that's what you paid attention to in this rant. Tracy, you may want to have your son read those articles that were posted, as the government is crackign down. But don't ever change the way of parenting where you son feels comfortable talking to about things. Otherwise, he might grow up to be a guy that tears apart everyone on a mesaage board when he is a father, as a way to make himself feel good - and we all know we don't want that. 142168[/snapback] Actually...nice post. I don't agree with it (I see a HUGE difference between underage drinking and copyright violation, in particular). And I think there's a key difference in that your parents didn't enable you (it's not like they put the alcohol in your hands). And they DID make sure you were informed of the risks. Contrast that to what Tracy posted...
BF_in_Indiana Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 For the resident know it alls, let me put it to you this way. You are saying it's wrong for Artest to cause a shitstorm (the brawl) over "just a cup" but it's ok for movie companies to sue some 15 year old for pirating a DVD for personal use? Both the cup throwing incident and stealing a simple 12 dollar DVD are small crimes in the big scheme of things. Ron Artest is a millionaire and should have shrugged it off. The movie industry is not losing money and makes Artest look like a bag lady and I'm certain you would condone them suing a 15 year old. Yet you want to hang Artest for stirring up a shitstorm after a crime was committed against him. Both had crimes committed against them and both are petty crimes. You would tell Artest to shrug it off, I think the movie companies should shrug it off.
NavyBillsFan Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Hey guys, lets sum this up without all the name calling and crap. Id rather know what my child is doing that have them sneak behind my back. We all were young in here once and did things our parents would kill us for. I know my kids will drink or do some crazy crap when they are teens. We as parents have one of two choices.... 1. Lock them up until they are 30 or 2. Be very open with them and talk to them (TALK) not yell.... Dont accept the fact that its "ok" to drink but sit with them and know where and who they are with. Drugs...... That is a no no..... A child who knows about drugs and the harm is the one who will never touch it. Same as smoking. I saw my parents smoke and I hated it. I never touched the stuff. Two of my long time friends brains are fried from the crap. 30 years old and cant do a thing because of drug use. Teach your kids that there is no worth in drugs. If I need a high, I just pop in the Bills/Oilers playoff game babby!!!!!! GO BILLS!!!!
Alaska Darin Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Hey guys, lets sum this up without all the name calling and crap. Id rather know what my child is doing that have them sneak behind my back. We all were young in here once and did things our parents would kill us for. I know my kids will drink or do some crazy crap when they are teens. We as parents have one of two choices.... 1. Lock them up until they are 30 or 2. Be very open with them and talk to them (TALK) not yell.... Dont accept the fact that its "ok" to drink but sit with them and know where and who they are with. Drugs...... That is a no no..... A child who knows about drugs and the harm is the one who will never touch it. Same as smoking. I saw my parents smoke and I hated it. I never touched the stuff. Two of my long time friends brains are fried from the crap. 30 years old and cant do a thing because of drug use. Teach your kids that there is no worth in drugs. If I need a high, I just pop in the Bills/Oilers playoff game babby!!!!!! GO BILLS!!!! 142265[/snapback] I know what my child is doing. He's not stealing other people's work with my blessing or help. Pretending because a bunch of suits are still making a ton of money that it's not screwed up to steal is horrible logic. With tremendous freedom comes great responsibility. The internet is the most free thing available to civilization at this time. The attitudes displayed in this thread are the largest reason it won't remain that way much longer. Sad.
BF_in_Indiana Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 I know what my child is doing. He's not stealing other people's work with my blessing or help. Pretending because a bunch of suits are still making a ton of money that it's not screwed up to steal is horrible logic. With tremendous freedom comes great responsibility. The internet is the most free thing available to civilization at this time. The attitudes displayed in this thread are the largest reason it won't remain that way much longer. Sad. 142271[/snapback] Well isn't that what you want? The internet to be locked up so 15 year olds can't steal?
NavyBillsFan Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 I know what my child is doing. He's not stealing other people's work with my blessing or help. Pretending because a bunch of suits are still making a ton of money that it's not screwed up to steal is horrible logic. With tremendous freedom comes great responsibility. The internet is the most free thing available to civilization at this time. The attitudes displayed in this thread are the largest reason it won't remain that way much longer. Sad. 142271[/snapback] Darin, I think we are both smart enough to know when the gov cracks down on the net we will then see something new come out..... I dont think the gov has the means to touch the internet. But who knows, enjoy it all now
Spiderweb Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 The bottom line is that stealing is just, well, stealing. What I find utterly ridiculous is the illogical rationalizing people do to support their theft. I'm a strong defender of "Fair Use', which has served not only the consumer and electronic manufacturers well, but also the Music and Movie industries. However, that is based on the premise that you obtained whatever you're copying, editing, etc., legally and that whatever you're doing with it is for your own use and benefit. I guess maybe we should just all become Anarchists, then there would be no rules and we could freely set aside morality, decency, character, logic and just plain common sense, so that we can please ourselves anyway we like without worring about anyone else. Now that would be a nice world, wouldn't it? Sad to say, some have already taken the initial steps...... Yes, allowing your child to steal is not being a good parent.
BF_in_Indiana Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Oh I don't debate it's stealing. I just find it amusing that "I whine about everything" Tom and his sidekick Alaska Douchebag can come on here and tell everyone how clear cut theft is but they can easily find many levels of assault when it suits their point. It's no wonder these two morons discuss politics all the time. They wish they could be politicians. Get with KRC. At least he got off his ass and did it. You two just talk about how you know it all. At least he was willing to show he knows it all.
Nanker Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 And this, again, is the fundamental point. People associate theft with illegal possession of physical property, when the most basic premise is that theft is illegal possession of PROPERTY. Intellectual property is still, very much, property. It's great that Tracy's husband is a skilled union craftsman. Perhaps he can do some free work on the weekends for NBC's president for her son's enjoyment of Slap Shot. I think it's a fair trade. 142245[/snapback] Agreed. It would be like taking a book from a library and copying it, then letting others copy your copy. Gee, you mean the author and publisher would be upset? Why? Their copy wasn't harmed. They can still sell their copies. So what if thousands of people that are the primary audience for the book got a free copy? Like, nobody died man. We're billsfanone.
Nanker Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Oh I don't debate it's stealing. I just find it amusing that "I whine about everything" Tom and his sidekick Alaska Douchebag can come on here and tell everyone how clear cut theft is but they can easily find many levels of assault when it suits their point. It's no wonder these two morons discuss politics all the time. They wish they could be politicians. Get with KRC. At least he got off his ass and did it. You two just talk about how you know it all. At least he was willing to show he knows it all. 142302[/snapback] Face it BF. Those two were put on this planet to personally torment YOU. That's why they worked so hard with the NBA to get Artest disqualified for the rest of the season. It was all to spite YOU. There's no higher principle revealed here than to personally screw you and make your every living breath an experience in excruciating, agonizing torture. Now if you excuse me, I have to go back behind the wispy veil that screens the seventh circle of secret initiates from the view and prying eyes of your (or as WE like to say - the nether) world. HHHHOOOHHHHOOOHHHHOOOHHHHAAWWHHHHAAWWHAAAHHAAAHHAAAH!!!!!
_BiB_ Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 I'm one of those odd people that for some reason has some stupid built in ethics alarm. I stuck a key chain in my pocket once while shopping a few years back because I had my hands full with something else, forgot about it and checked out. When I found it again when I got to the car, I went back in and payed for it. At what point do little "harmless" activities give way to accepting things that are not quite as harmless? This is not a slap at Tracey Lee for her parenting, she's by no means the lone ranger here, but sort of an indictment in general as this has become a common and prevelant attitude apparantly not only within our youth, but our society as a whole. The mind set is what is bothersome to me. How many kids think it's perfectly acceptable to cheat on tests? The heck with learning the subject matter. Some of them grow up to be the folks claiming their dog as a tax deduction. Things like the internet confuse the situation by making it easier to steal. Having the means to do something shouldn't automatically be construed as permission to do it. Could vs. should. Yeah, many (most?) CD's/Movies/whatever are crappy and overpriced anyway and it's not ax murder-but the rationalization part doesn't necessarily stop there.
NavyBillsFan Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Why care what they think BF. Wise cracks from people who hate the world because they are not you. Politicians? Ah yeah…. Like they can change anything from an Internet message board. If you rank them on a political food chain, they would be rank where poop sticks to ass hairs. I figure they’re more like the M. Moore fans that sniff his undies…. Don’t moan over what two dildoes think of you man. Please, post away. What makes you a man is when they can look you in the eye and speak their minds. You will never see these guys in person. 70 bucks for a ticket is around 50 bags of chips to them. They need to blame somebody for their physical and mental state….. The subway diet doesn’t work / Dr. Adkins is dead / Richard Simmons is gay….. We, the little in shape peons are to blame… The world is coming to an end and im going to download the whole thing! Oh I don't debate it's stealing. I just find it amusing that "I whine about everything" Tom and his sidekick Alaska Douchebag can come on here and tell everyone how clear cut theft is but they can easily find many levels of assault when it suits their point. It's no wonder these two morons discuss politics all the time. They wish they could be politicians. Get with KRC. At least he got off his ass and did it. You two just talk about how you know it all. At least he was willing to show he knows it all. 142302[/snapback]
Fezmid Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 I'm one of those odd people that for some reason has some stupid built in ethics alarm. I stuck a key chain in my pocket once while shopping a few years back because I had my hands full with something else, forgot about it and checked out. When I found it again when I got to the car, I went back in and payed for it. Reminds me of something my mom did when I was a kid. She went to B-Kwik (anyone remember those?) and bought some stuff, as well as a lottery ticket. When she got home, she found that they accidentally gave her two lottery tickets. She promptly went back to the store and actually gave them an extra $1 for the second one (even though she didn't want it). I personally didn't (and still don't) agree with that - it's not like she stole it, they gave it to her - but you can't say she doesn't have ethics. I just now know if we play Monopoly and she gets the "Bank Error in your favor: Collect $200," I'm going to make her give it back CW
DC Tom Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 For the resident know it alls, let me put it to you this way. You are saying it's wrong for Artest to cause a shitstorm (the brawl) over "just a cup" but it's ok for movie companies to sue some 15 year old for pirating a DVD for personal use? Both the cup throwing incident and stealing a simple 12 dollar DVD are small crimes in the big scheme of things. Ron Artest is a millionaire and should have shrugged it off. The movie industry is not losing money and makes Artest look like a bag lady and I'm certain you would condone them suing a 15 year old. Yet you want to hang Artest for stirring up a shitstorm after a crime was committed against him. Both had crimes committed against them and both are petty crimes. You would tell Artest to shrug it off, I think the movie companies should shrug it off. 142254[/snapback] You're a fool. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and squirrels. That you can somehow see a parallel between the two situations is an incomprehensible act of idiocy...and yet, so predictable.
stevestojan Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Ya know what I hate? I hate when we are having a somewhat coherent discussion (call it argument if you will), where both sides are actually giving their sides, some people are explaining from experience some actual facts, and others just giving their $.02. But then BF_In_Indiana has to come in and, like a monkey throwing his own feces, mess up the whole damn thing. Seriously, BF, go back and look at this thread. It was heated, yes, as it is a highly controversial subject. But then you come in and try to bring up your "boy" Artest. Why? WHY? Why can't we ever just have a decent, well thought out argument around here without you coming around to lick up the windows when they get frosty?
Nervous Guy Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Agreed. It would be like taking a book from a library and copying it, then letting others copy your copy. Gee, you mean the author and publisher would be upset? Why? Their copy wasn't harmed. They can still sell their copies. So what if thousands of people that are the primary audience for the book got a free copy? Like, nobody died man. We're billsfanone. 142314[/snapback] This is all very interesting...now if I buy a book or a magazine and read it, then share it with a friend, then they share it with a friend and so on is that illegal?
Alaska Darin Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 This is all very interesting...now if I buy a book or a magazine and read it, then share it with a friend, then they share it with a friend and so on is that illegal? 142524[/snapback] No. Just as it's not illegal to give them your DVD to take home and watch. That falls under Fair Use.
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 Ya know what I hate? I hate when we are having a somewhat coherent discussion (call it argument if you will), where both sides are actually giving their sides, some people are explaining from experience some actual facts, and others just giving their $.02. But then BF_In_Indiana has to come in and, like a monkey throwing his own feces, mess up the whole damn thing. Seriously, BF, go back and look at this thread. It was heated, yes, as it is a highly controversial subject. But then you come in and try to bring up your "boy" Artest. Why? WHY? Why can't we ever just have a decent, well thought out argument around here without you coming around to lick up the windows when they get frosty? 142442[/snapback] But Artest! <splat!> Artest! <splat!> Artest! <splat!>
stevestojan Posted December 2, 2004 Posted December 2, 2004 No. Just as it's not illegal to give them your DVD to take home and watch. That falls under Fair Use. 142532[/snapback] So, so long as neither of you can watch it at the same time, it's legal? I know this might sound like I'm digging here, but this is the kind of stuff that could be brought up: Since its not illegal to let a friend watch it, could that friend set up a webcam and let me watch it WHILE he's watching it? Me at my house, him at his? Is it only illegal if we both OWN a copy?
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