If anyone is still up, C2C's show tonight is on how sports are fix

[ConradDobler]

"Just give it to him". That's all I ever needed to hear.

[gus2378]

There are a couple reasons I do not believe games are fixed ...

 

Reason #1 I don't believe it is that the refs in all major sports are mediocre at best most of the time ... what makes you think they could all get together and pull off some grand conspiracy successfully without screwing it up? especially a football game with so many officials watching different things. The example someone noted about the Bills late TD on a tipped pass to cover the spread ... I mean, for that to be fixed, all 22 guys plus all the refs have to be on board, because all it takes is the Pats backup DE in the game in garbage time deciding he's going to get himself a sack to pad his numbers and you are screwed ... or the Bills OT grabs him and the ref calls holding ... I mean, there are like 64 moving parts when you consider all the players and possible subs and all the refs and then you still have to throw a good pass and have it tipped exactly the right way? Come on. The idea of a fix is that you CAN'T LOSE. No one is paying off all these people to MAYBE pull it off. Even the "Just give it to him" game ... if they were fixing it for the Pats to win, they really do suck because they waited until there were 30 seconds left to start fixing. What kind of sense does that make? They just blew it.

 

Reason #2 is the people. Plural. Like, hundreds of them who would have to be in on it for a league to make a team win. Maybe one NBA ref could fix a game here and there, or try really hard, but no league is mandating who wins. If this has been going on all these years, why hasn't a single disgruntled employee who got fired gone on some news show? Or written a book? You don't think that book would be worth millions?

 

I am not asking anyone to PROVE something is fixed as much as convince me it is even POSSIBLE. Convince me that refs who suck during a meaningless NFL game in October suddenly can get together and coordinate the outcome of a playoff game with the world watching game without screwing it up. Convince me how it was better for the NBA that the San Antonio Spurs and boring Tim Duncan won titles over the Knicks one time and LeBron James another, for instance. How was that better for the league? And then convince me that despite these league-wide master plans carried out PERFECTLY by hundreds of people, including some on the losing team I can only assume, not a single person has ever talked.

 

Sorry, I think a much more resonable explanation is, "The refs just suck."

[folz]

I stopped watching the NBA years ago (before the ref scandal) because it all became geared to generating

stars. A star player could hack a young guy or no name guy and never get called for it, yet when that star

player drove the lane on the next play and missed the bucket when there was no or very minimal contact,

a foul was called and he'd get 2 shots. Games were not called fairly and despite whether the league was

doing that to rig the outcome of games or not (which I don't at all put past them), the star treatment alone

made it unfair and took the fun out of the game for me.

 

I was a huge Celtics fan growing up and a Lakers/Celtics final would have normally had me going crazy...yet,

I haven't watched 1 game of these finals. If you want to watch basketball, watch college hoops.

 

Now, I never thought the NFL was rigged...sure the better teams might get the benefit of the doubt more often than

not, but like others say, you could chalk that up to human nature by the refs, not necessarily a conspiracy.

But, Super Bowl XL Pittsburgh vs. Seattle, Jerome Bettis in his last game before a home audience, etc. gave

me pause for thought. I do feel like the outcome of that game was severely altered by the refs. Was it a league

conspiracy? I have no idea, but it did make me worry that the NFL might turn into the NBA. And the wholes Cheatriots

fiasco didn't help either. But, so far it looks like that has been avoided (I hope). I still think the game has integrity.

 

But for those who think it is too hard to rig an NFL game, all you have to do is look at holding penalties. The refs

could call a hold on almost any play. A few holding calls at crucial moments could definitely change the outcome

of a game if it makes a team punt, knocks them out of field goal range, pins them against their endzone giving

the other team great field position on the turnover, etc. It might be tough to guarantee the outcome of a game,

but they could sure stack the odds for or against a team pretty easily if they wanted to.

 

I think we as fans (fans of all NFL teams) hold the burden of keeping the league honest, showing outrage if the

league ever starts turning in that direction and/or not watching, buying their product if it came to that.

[NoSaint]

im going to throw some ideas out there and you can all tell me if im crazy.....

 

say two teams come into a game evenly matched, say 50-50 chance to win.

ones a big market, fan favorite, lots of stars (think lakers, patriots, etc...)

ones small market, blue collar no household name players but a solid team (spurs perhaps?)

 

i am a referee for this game, winner goes to the championship game

 

i know my boss would be VERY happy to see kobe, tom brady etc in the championship. he hasnt called to tell me to fix the game, but im not a fool.

 

from here out ill stick to football, but i think the example works for all sports

 

the game is tight, and brady has the ball in his hands, trailing by four -- he throws the ball deep to moss, moss pushes off and catches it -- no call?

 

alternatively the ball falls -- no catch, its borderline pass interference... do you think the stars get that call more often then the nameless team?

 

 

something like that can take a 50-50 game and make it 60-40 without anyone being able to prove anything. the games not fixed, the stars have not been promised victory but theres been a subtle advantage added.

 

this happens a few times in a season and suddenly an 8-8 team can become 11-5? they can also not capitalize on it, and end up 8-8.

 

i think something like this is very present in sports.

[Fezmid]

something like that can take a 50-50 game and make it 60-40 without anyone being able to prove anything. the games not fixed, the stars have not been promised victory but theres been a subtle advantage added.

 

this happens a few times in a season and suddenly an 8-8 team can become 11-5? they can also not capitalize on it, and end up 8-8.

Exactly. Games aren't "fixed," but they are nudged a certain way -- and that doesn't take everyone to be collaborating to pull off. Everyone says that the outcome of a game hinges on just a few plays -- easy for a single ref to call/not call 3-4 plays per game to give one team a pretty big advantage.

 

Everyone saying, "It's human nature," or "coincidence," can't at the same time say, "It's impossible - too many people." How long did it take the Patriots* cheating to come out, and that was an entire organization (and was never proven!).

[gus2378]

Exactly. Games aren't "fixed," but they are nudged a certain way -- and that doesn't take everyone to be collaborating to pull off. Everyone says that the outcome of a game hinges on just a few plays -- easy for a single ref to call/not call 3-4 plays per game to give one team a pretty big advantage.

OK, only two problems ...

 

1. What's in it for the refs? These are part-time guys. They have real jobs, some are even lawyers and the like. They make good money for part-timers, but the pay range is like $25K-70K. They are not going to be out on the street if the NFL fires them. There is certainly no glory involved, people only notice you when you screw up. There is no endorsement money. So why are they "nudging" games in one direction or the other? Is the NFL slipping them extra cash to "nudge" games? Is it just in their job description? And again, if so, you are expanding the conspiracy and making it less and less likely that this is going on for 30 years and no one has EVER talked about it. The money one of these guys could make writing a book about it is 10x what they make reffing games.

 

Now, if you want to talk about a ref with a gambling problem or something who needs to fix a game for the mob, well again that brings us back to making it a SURE THING. The idea of a FIX is you CAN'T LOSE. I totally agree a crappy ref or two can influence a game, but he can't throw and catch the ball. He can ignore all the holding and pushing off he wants, but there are still like 90 players, two head coaches and six other officials who could screw it up pretty easily.

 

2. Is it worth the risk to the NFL? The NFL is a golden goose ... it makes BILLIONS from TV and advertising sponsors before it even sells a ticket to a game. It doesn't even matter who wins the games. Sure, maybe they will make a few extra million here and there in the next TV deal if the big markets are generally good because maybe it means an extra ratings point but ... when you are making billions, why put it at risk for $10 million?

 

The only thing that can bring down the NFL is if people thought the games were fixed. It's why baseball comes down so hard on gambling while ignoring drugs, but it's even more important in football because gambling is the whole reason many people watch. If people believe games are fixed, they will stop gambling and therefore stop watching. It's just bad business to try to "nudge " games, there is so little upside and so much at risk.

[bills in va]

I fell asleep!

 

 

 

 

I think it's much easier to fix a game in baseball, basketball and hockey because there are fewer officials and more judgment calls. The NFL also has the most liberal use of instant replay of any league. If an official is on the take it's gonna be much harder for them to influence a game.

 

I doubt there are too many players who'd fix a game, because if there teammates found out they'd be dead men.

Can't replay a holding call to wipe out a td pass, can't replay a inadvertant whistle by Ed Hoculi like in Denver

[Hossage]

It isnt hard to coerce a ref into giving you one or two bad calls per game. You find out where he lives, take a picture of his wife in the bathtub, give him a gentle reminder at the supermarket, follow him home, etc.

 

I know a bookie. I have seen just a little of the mafia in action. I have no doubt that they are manipulating NFL games. It makes sense.

[Pete]

"Just give it to him". That's all I ever needed to hear.

exactly! The most fixed game I ever seen in any sport

[SoulMan]

"Just give it to him". That's all I ever needed to hear.

 

That's a good one and so was SB XXVI.

[gus2378]

exactly! The most fixed game I ever seen in any sport

 

LOL ... if it was SO fixed, what would they have done if Bledsoe had the ball slip out of his hand and he had thrown the hail mary 5 yards out of bounds? Or out the back of the end zone? The whole thing goes down the tubes.

Again, the definition of FIXED is it is a SURE THING. If you FIX a game, you bet TONS of money on it ... would anyone in their right mind bet TONS of money and then let the team they bet on be behind in the closing seconds? Wouldn't it have just been easier to call holding on one of the Bills' TDs earlier in the game or something? Until the pass interference (however long it was, I forget, but it was at least 40 or 50 yards), the Pats had more penalty yards than the Bills. That's the worst job of fixing a game I can imagine for like 59 minutes and 30 seconds.

[NoSaint]

OK, only two problems ...

 

1. What's in it for the refs? These are part-time guys. They have real jobs, some are even lawyers and the like. They make good money for part-timers, but the pay range is like $25K-70K. They are not going to be out on the street if the NFL fires them. There is certainly no glory involved, people only notice you when you screw up. There is no endorsement money. So why are they "nudging" games in one direction or the other? Is the NFL slipping them extra cash to "nudge" games? Is it just in their job description? And again, if so, you are expanding the conspiracy and making it less and less likely that this is going on for 30 years and no one has EVER talked about it. The money one of these guys could make writing a book about it is 10x what they make reffing games.

 

Now, if you want to talk about a ref with a gambling problem or something who needs to fix a game for the mob, well again that brings us back to making it a SURE THING. The idea of a FIX is you CAN'T LOSE. I totally agree a crappy ref or two can influence a game, but he can't throw and catch the ball. He can ignore all the holding and pushing off he wants, but there are still like 90 players, two head coaches and six other officials who could screw it up pretty easily.

ie

2. Is it worth the risk to the NFL? The NFL is a golden goose ... it makes BILLIONS from TV and advertising sponsors before it even sells a ticket to a game. It doesn't even matter who wins the games. Sure, maybe they will make a few extra million here and there in the next TV deal if the big markets are generally good because maybe it means an extra ratings point but ... when you are making billions, why put it at risk for $10 million?

 

The only thing that can bring down the NFL is if people thought the games were fixed. It's why baseball comes down so hard on gambling while ignoring drugs, but it's even more important in football because gambling is the whole reason many people watch. If people believe games are fixed, they will stop gambling and therefore stop watching. It's just bad business to try to "nudge " games, there is so little upside and so much at risk.

 

 

1. if im a ref, i want to work the big games - not for money but, for glory among my peers. if the nfl knows i "play ball" im more likely to get those games. especially if ive proven all season to be able to give slight edges without drawing attention to myself. if ive been able to reign in blowouts, give some late game drives to add drama etc.... have you read any of the tim donaghy allegations in the NBA? it isnt about making it a sure thing in my sccenario, its about giving a team an opportunity to take advantage of a situation, could be to win, could be just to keep it competitive when a game is a mismatch. if they cant take advantage, oh well.... "of course its not fixed, the star doesnt win every time"

 

2. it didnt bring down the nba when one of its refs got caught, and wrote a book about it! you look the other way, say you dont know what hes talking about, and theres no conspiracy because you never told him to do it, the game wasnt fixed -- see point 1 -- "the stars didnt win em all!"

[gus2378]

1. if im a ref, i want to work the big games - not for money but, for glory among my peers. if the nfl knows i "play ball" im more likely to get those games. especially if ive proven all season to be able to give slight edges without drawing attention to myself. if ive been able to reign in blowouts, give some late game drives to add drama etc.... have you read any of the tim donaghy allegations in the NBA? it isnt about making it a sure thing in my sccenario, its about giving a team an opportunity to take advantage of a situation, could be to win, could be just to keep it competitive when a game is a mismatch. if they cant take advantage, oh well.... "of course its not fixed, the star doesnt win every time"

 

2. it didnt bring down the nba when one of its refs got caught, and wrote a book about it! you look the other way, say you dont know what hes talking about, and theres no conspiracy because you never told him to do it, the game wasnt fixed -- see point 1 -- "the stars didnt win em all!"

1. Even if this "glory among peers" was enough incentive for a guy to "nudge" a game the way the NFL wants (which I do not believe it is, but whatever, I'll play long with that part), think about how much you are expanding the conspiracy here. Now the refs are actually EVALUATED on their abilty to fix games without being caught, so the best ones at it are "rewarded" with the right to fix the biggest games? What about when they are college refs and the NFL is looking for the ones they want to hire? Do they ask them to fix games to see how good they are at it? I mean, if it's part of the job, I want to know if a guy is willing and able to do it before I hire him, don't I? Who is doing all this evaluating? Is it the commissioner himself or does he have a staff to do it? because like I said, you are talking hundreds of people who would know about this program for "nuidging" games. You mean to tell me there has never been one honest ref who worked his way up through HS and college games hired who wasn't outraged and didn't spill the beans?

Also, since fans agree that most officiating in every sport is pretty bad, you are also asking us to agree that these same guys that suck most of the time somehow can fix games without messing it up.

 

2. I said in my earlier post, I can see a ref in an NBA game influencing a game MUCH more than an NFL game, there are fewer players, fewer officials and just fewer moving parts. But that doesn't mean it came down from the league. I just don't see the reward being worth the risk.

 

All I am saying is, I have serious reasonable doubt. Could I IMAGINE a game being fixed, sure. But what you are describing is systematic fixing as the normal day-to-day operating procedure of a league. I just can't believe that has not leaked ... a memo, an email ... SOMETHING. You can't tell me EVERYONE involved is crooked enough to fix games but honest and loyal enough to keep it a secret out of loyalty to the NFL or NBA. They are not all millionaires, Someone by now would have talked.

[Fezmid]

2. it didnt bring down the nba when one of its refs got caught, and wrote a book about it! you look the other way, say you dont know what hes talking about, and theres no conspiracy because you never told him to do it, the game wasnt fixed -- see point 1 -- "the stars didnt win em all!"

 

Exactly! I'll again point out the fact that the Patriots* were out and out cheating for YEARS, but nothing was "proven" and all of the evidence was destroyed. Doesn't seem to have harmed the NFL's image at all, does it? In fact many people say, "No big deal, even if it's true!"

 

So how hard would it be to tell the head ref, "Go ahead and make a holding/non-holding call 2 or 3 times per game in favor of team X?" Heck, most people would say, "If you can't overcome a few bad calls in a game, then you don't deserve to win!" I've seen people post that here!

 

It'd be easier to nudge games than you think.

[Formerly BF_in_Indiana]

I told people the NBA was fixed years ago on this board and got laughed at. Now we have a full thread about it?

[KD in CA]

I told people the NBA was fixed years ago on this board and got laughed at. Now we have a full thread about it?

 

Hell, the NBA even fixes its draft. Magic and Bird just happen to end up on opposite coasts playing for the 2 most storied franchaises? Jordan to Chicago? Ewing to New York?

[Cookiemonster]

I don't believe games in the NFL are outright fixed -- but I do believe that the league tries to push results a certain direction by giving favorable calls to the teams they want to win and overlooking things that would help the team they don't care about.

 

Let's face it, the league doesn't care if Buffalo is in the playoffs. Now watch our games - how many calls go our way? How many calls go against us to help the other team?

 

As for "interesting," how is it not a great story that after 9/11, the PATRIOTS rise to the top? After Katrina the NEW ORLEANS Saints rise to the top? That Manning, the poster child for the league, is on the top? Heck, that the Buffalo Bills go to *4* straight Super Bowls!

Fezmid, you are spot on, the NFL, and other big sports in general do not outright fix games, but if anyone belives that there is not some subtle manipulation, than they probably still belive in the Easter Bunny as well.

Tell me, what would be the ramifications, legal and otherwise, if they were fixed, and it were uncovered some how?

Not many, cause the NFL is a monopoly, and is too powerfull. You have to remember, that just like when a popular player

is cut, or traded, the usual comeback, is well this is a business, so why would the NFL in general not look at it the same way? They do, and they will do what is in the best interest of milking the cow to the fullest. You remeber when Arlen Specter tried to have spygate investigated by congress, he was cut off at the pass quickly, and politely told to stay the hell out of the NFL's business, and you never heard another word from him (he was basically questioning why the tapes were destroyed). Same thing with Donagy, he said that he was going to name names of other ref.'s doing the same thing. What happened to that? We got too 4 straight superbowls in spite of the manipulation, which wasn't quite as strong back then, when the NFL figured out that there was just too much at stake not to manipulate, it really started doing more of it. It is done through scheduling, marketing, rules, (or lack of enforcement of them), etc... The NFL is a step, and a small one at that, ahead of WWE. I belive the manipulation will continue, and only become more obvious, they use to try to masquerade it some, now they are just blatant about it. Just take what you want from it, and eschew the rest, that way you will not run the risk of getting to emotionally attached, we have to start milking them, like they have been doing to us for so long now. You really have to look at it much like you would any other form of entertainment, like American Idol or Danging With The Stars, and just enjoy it it strictly for the entertainment value.

[NoSaint]

1. Even if this "glory among peers" was enough incentive for a guy to "nudge" a game the way the NFL wants (which I do not believe it is, but whatever, I'll play long with that part), think about how much you are expanding the conspiracy here. Now the refs are actually EVALUATED on their abilty to fix games without being caught, so the best ones at it are "rewarded" with the right to fix the biggest games? What about when they are college refs and the NFL is looking for the ones they want to hire? Do they ask them to fix games to see how good they are at it? I mean, if it's part of the job, I want to know if a guy is willing and able to do it before I hire him, don't I? Who is doing all this evaluating? Is it the commissioner himself or does he have a staff to do it? because like I said, you are talking hundreds of people who would know about this program for "nuidging" games. You mean to tell me there has never been one honest ref who worked his way up through HS and college games hired who wasn't outraged and didn't spill the beans?

Also, since fans agree that most officiating in every sport is pretty bad, you are also asking us to agree that these same guys that suck most of the time somehow can fix games without messing it up.

 

2. I said in my earlier post, I can see a ref in an NBA game influencing a game MUCH more than an NFL game, there are fewer players, fewer officials and just fewer moving parts. But that doesn't mean it came down from the league. I just don't see the reward being worth the risk.

 

All I am saying is, I have serious reasonable doubt. Could I IMAGINE a game being fixed, sure. But what you are describing is systematic fixing as the normal day-to-day operating procedure of a league. I just can't believe that has not leaked ... a memo, an email ... SOMETHING. You can't tell me EVERYONE involved is crooked enough to fix games but honest and loyal enough to keep it a secret out of loyalty to the NFL or NBA. They are not all millionaires, Someone by now would have talked.

 

why does anyone want to be in the superbowl? its certainly not for the game check. its bragging rights. And yes, the nba can influence a lot more -- one or two calls on the right person and hes on the bench til the 4th quarter. thats huge. what im saying isnt that the game is anything close to rigged or fixed, but that here and there a ref will throw in a call or two to help things along.

 

It doesnt have to be about making the pats go undefeated, it can be cause a teams down 3 touchdowns, im not going to call holding on the long run to make the game competitive again.

 

And im not saying every game, on every level, every weekend, is tainted by that..... but probably a lot are. It wouldnt take a memo to make something like that commonplace. Most workplaces have a lot of rules that they bend unspokenly, and the people that play with the loose set of rules get rewarded. Its a product of the culture, not a company directive at that point. once its an accepted thing, its very easy to work new people into the system without ever saying a word.

[Mr. WEO]

Fezmid, you are spot on, the NFL, and other big sports in general do not outright fix games, but if anyone belives that there is not some subtle manipulation, than they probably still belive in the Easter Bunny as well.

Tell me, what would be the ramifications, legal and otherwise, if they were fixed, and it were uncovered some how?

Not many, cause the NFL is a monopoly, and is too powerfull. You have to remember, that just like when a popular player

is cut, or traded, the usual comeback, is well this is a business, so why would the NFL in general not look at it the same way? They do, and they will do what is in the best interest of milking the cow to the fullest. You remeber when Arlen Specter tried to have spygate investigated by congress, he was cut off at the pass quickly, and politely told to stay the hell out of the NFL's business, and you never heard another word from him (he was basically questioning why the tapes were destroyed). Same thing with Donagy, he said that he was going to name names of other ref.'s doing the same thing. What happened to that? We got too 4 straight superbowls in spite of the manipulation, which wasn't quite as strong back then, when the NFL figured out that there was just too much at stake not to manipulate, it really started doing more of it. It is done through scheduling, marketing, rules, (or lack of enforcement of them), etc... The NFL is a step, and a small one at that, ahead of WWE. I belive the manipulation will continue, and only become more obvious, they use to try to masquerade it some, now they are just blatant about it. Just take what you want from it, and eschew the rest, that way you will not run the risk of getting to emotionally attached, we have to start milking them, like they have been doing to us for so long now. You really have to look at it much like you would any other form of entertainment, like American Idol or Danging With The Stars, and just enjoy it it strictly for the entertainment value.

 

 

Paranoia strikes deep.

 

Anyway, there was a good review of this book in the WSJ two weeks ago. Predictably, the judgement was that it was an interesting read but the book was esentially weightless because it doens't bother toexplain how such conspiracies work or have worked in major sports on a major scale.

 

And remember, Donahgy was mainly acting to affect the spread, which is fairly easy to do in calling a basketball game, very difficult or impossible to do in football.

[NoSaint]

Paranoia strikes deep.

 

Anyway, there was a good review of this book in the WSJ two weeks ago. Predictably, the judgement was that it was an interesting read but the book was esentially weightless because it doens't bother toexplain how such conspiracies work or have worked in major sports on a major scale.

 

And remember, Donahgy was mainly acting to affect the spread, which is fairly easy to do in calling a basketball game, very difficult or impossible to do in football.

 

with holding on nearly every play, it's not absurd to throw one in there to turn a 3rd and short to a third and long, or miss one on a long run.... It's not as easy as other but far from impossible.