Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 I work in a school and teach kids all day, but I'm not a "teacher" in the sense in which you're imagining it. And it doesn't explain anything, it only makes you feel that your hatred has now been justified. You're different. Mmmmkay. The fact that you'll simply take this complex issue and turn it into yet another opportunity to mindlessly bash your imaginary liberal lefties, Imaginary liberal lefties? Do you actually READ the NEA bulletins or attend your union's meetings? You know, the same union that has zero diversity of political opinion, that politicizes students with strident pro-unionist, pro-"diversity" and overarchingly leftist opinions? The same organization that not only your union dues but your property taxes support? Yeah, they're all bogeymen, Simon. Right on the money with THAT assessment, as usual. Couple of questions: do you support unfettered tenure? How about guaranteed automatic pay raises regardless of actual performance? Where do you stand on auditing of NEA or AFT books? How about tax vouchers? If you oppose any of these, then you don't support reform no matter HOW MUCH you insist you're "different" from the rest. Open and shut, really.
Simon Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 You're different. Mmmmkay. Actually I was just qualifying my remarks by stating that I don't often stand in front of a class and teach a particular subject and may have a different perspective as such. Shocking that you'd misunderstand it and attempt to cram it into a preconceived notion, as that's soooo unlike you.. Imaginary liberal lefties? Do you actually READ the NEA bulletins or attend your union's meetings? You know, the same union that has zero diversity of political opinion, that politicizes students with strident pro-unionist, pro-"diversity" and overarchingly leftist opinions? The same organization that not only your union dues but your property taxes support? Yeah, they're all bogeymen, Simon. Right on the money with THAT assessment, as usual. Half the people on my staff are annoyed that they can't display religious symbology or celebrate holidays in a traditional manner. More than half the people on my staff would be considered to hold conservative views on political, financial and most social issues. When I refused to join the union (until dues became compulsory for all teachers this year) and made my feelings clear regarding the wrong-headedness of their refusal to help toss out ineffectual teachers, what kind of response do you think I got? Was I made a pariah, ignored in the hallways, forced to endure smarmy remarks at meetings, shunned by the evil liberal lefties who only want to protect all teacher's jobs? No, I was actually just elected to be our building's representative even after I made it clear that I didn't respect how the union went about its business. When I told the head of the union I was considering refusing the position because I had philosophical differences with the union, he informed me he was a flaming republican and has been placed in his position because the majority of the staff felt he represented their views. You live in a self-created fantasy world in which you build up your own imaginary monsters just so you have something to rail against. Like most conservative christians, you have an overarching need to play the role of the crucified and do so by creating powerful forces in your narrow-minded head so you can wail about how much of a victim you are. "Oh, those evil liberal secular lefties are destroying the world! I have to stop them and save us all!!!" You don't even consider issues, you just look for ways to fit them into your pre-existing worldview to justify the static attitude you already have in place. If you want to discuss an issue great, but don't waste my time with your predictable and repetitive crying about evil liberal conspiracies that only exist in your head.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 You live in a self-created fantasy world in which you build up your own imaginary monsters just so you have something to rail against. Like most conservative christians, you have an overarching need to play the role of the crucified and do so by creating powerful forces in your narrow-minded head so you can wail about how much of a victim you are. "Oh, those evil liberal secular lefties are destroying the world! I have to stop them and save us all!!!" You don't even consider issues, you just look for ways to fit them into your pre-existing worldview to justify the static attitude you already have in place.If you want to discuss an issue great, but don't waste my time with your predictable and repetitive crying about evil liberal conspiracies that only exist in your head. Riiight. Where the hell do you teach? I'd wager it's not in an urban environment or even a yuppified suburban school district. Riddle me this, Simon. If half the membership of the NEA is SO against the stance of the union, why is it still so influential and why do so many "conservative" teachers continue to pay the dues and maintain membership in said union when the union supposedly does NOT represent their views? Simple question deserves a simple answer, and oh, I noticed you conviently dodged my questions about vouchers, tenure, non-performance-linked guaranteed pay raises and auditing of union books. Convenient. And another thing, this country's already gone to hell...and it's being led there by the education system. There's a reason my wife (a public schoolteacher) and I removed our daughter from the public schools. They are a black hole. Ridiculous sums of money fall in, and nothing of any worth comes out. What you're signing on to if you pay the dues.
DC Tom Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 You live in a self-created fantasy world in which you build up your own imaginary monsters just so you have something to rail against.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Fight merit pay! Don't advocate paying teachers like everyone else in the real world!! It's just too easy.
Simon Posted June 15, 2010 Posted June 15, 2010 Riiight. Where the hell do you teach? I'd wager it's not in an urban environment or even a yuppified suburban school district. Hell no, it's not in an urban environment; nobody's printed enough money yet to get me to spend my life in some concrete shlthole. It's more of a rural/suburban district. If half the membership of the NEA is SO against the stance of the union, why is it still so influential and why do so many "conservative" teachers continue to pay the dues and maintain membership in said union when the union supposedly does NOT represent their views? First off, I never said any such thing as I try not to be so stupid as to extrapolate what little I'm familiar with to be the same everywhere else. If what you said were true, I'd guess folks maintain membership because it's the only union available and they want some sort of protection from mindless ideologues who need to politicize every aspect of life and demonize anybody who doesn't goose step along with them. and oh, I noticed you conviently dodged my questions about vouchers, tenure, non-performance-linked guaranteed pay raises and auditing of union books. Convenient. And oh, and I notice you've already assumed what my answers would be to fit into your nice little pre-existing worldview. And once again, you'd be wrong. And another thing, this country's already gone to hell...and it's being led there by the education system. Since your idea of hell is tolerance, equality and diversity, I hope our educations system is leading. Fight merit pay! Don't advocate paying teachers like everyone else in the real world!! It's just too easy. Of course it's easy when you don't have to think about anything and just conveniently try to fit it all into your narrow little worldview. As for the issue of merit pay, I get the sense that the very nature of education makes the idea a near impossibility. But I'd probably find it entertaining to hear how you think this should be done and who should decide it.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Since your idea of hell is tolerance, equality and diversity, I hope our educations system is leading. My idea of hell is one where moral relativism and an anything goes mentality is tought to children. My idea of hell is one where right and wrong no longer matter, where everyone and everything is OK and competition and the valuw of winning and losing is not taught. Of course it's easy when you don't have to think about anything and just conveniently try to fit it all into your narrow little worldview. I'm the one with a narrow worldview? As for the issue of merit pay, I get the sense that the very nature of education makes the idea a near impossibility. But I'd probably find it entertaining to hear how you think this should be done and who should decide it. If students fail, the teacher is a failure. Falure = lack of merit.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Oh, and in case you were going to break out one of thise tired NEA talking points about school choice not working, School Choice Is Not Only Tested, It Works!
Simon Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 If students fail, the teacher is a failure. Falure = lack of merit. So if Lil Johnny comes to school 2 days a week because his parents don't give a sheet, which of these do you want to see? And which do you think will happen? A) Teacher continues teaching; Lil Johnny fails cuz he didn't come to school and as a result, the teacher gets their pay docked B) Teacher holds up the whole class so Lil Johnny can catch up; the rest of the class gets screwed but Lil Johnny passes and teacher gets paid C) Instead of going home to eat dinner with their family, Teacher instead goes to Lil Johnny's house and spends the evening tutoring him (and then to Lil Jimmy's house who's going to fail cuz his Mom is a methhead; and then to Lil Janey's house who's going to fail cuz her Mom is out drinking every night; and then to Lil Jackie's house cuz Dad is in jail, etc etc etc) D) All the evil liberal teachers are fired and replaced by conservative clergy who teach christian education courses all day and work for half the price and the occasional bit of 11 year old ass.
Fan in San Diego Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 Tenure sucks, to be certain but I hate the measurements. "If students don't improve..." translates to giving the power to a bunch of children, which is the root of the problem in education today. I don't know what the answer is but this one isn't it. I'm with you on the measurements in this bill are misguided. If the object is to fire bad teachers then give the principal of the under performing schools the ability to fire the bad teachers on the spot. If there has to be a review process then fine but that is what is really needed in education.
OCinBuffalo Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 First of all this: So if Lil Johnny comes to school 2 days a week because his parents don't give a sheet, which of these do you want to see? is a reality, not a hypothetical. These worst case scenarios are real, and they are common. I don't know if Simon deals with this situation personally, because apparently he like living in the sticks wif dem cows , but, I do personally know plenty of urban teachers who deal with these realities for a job. I know one in particular whose kids have purposely failed so that they can go to summer school, because that means they get to eat regularly, school is safe, and they don't have to worry about being abused in one way or another for at least part of the day. Much of this thread is the same old story: Teachers blame the parents Parents blame the teachers Nobody blames the little bastards for when they act like little bastards, because we might effect their self esteem Politicians look to see who is winning to see which side they will be on The unions and the government are generally worthless, and cause more problems than they solve An objective observer->outside the education industry and without kids, looks at this and sees that we aren't getting anywhere demonizing one side or the other. Yes there are bad teachers, parents, unions, government employees and kids, lots of them. Either we change who runs education, or, we change how its being run. The current arrangement fails. Here's what I know: in any system you cannot introduce a standard set of measures that ignores dependencies. In this case, we cannot attempt to create metrics that measure teacher performance, based on kid performance, and ignore the glaring dependency that is: how and if the kid shows up to class, ready to learn. That is 100% dependent on the kids and the parents. There is no way every kids starts at 0. Some start at 10, some start at -50, etc. Never mind the differences in IQ, there's variance in culture, values, etc. We aren't making homogeneous widgets here. So, we need to elevate our thinking. I deal with this misconception every day: If we are going to measure how well teachers teach, then we need to measure their execution of the teaching process itself. Measuring test scores in a vacuum pretends all kids start the same. Test scores are about student performance, and are not necessarily indicative of teacher performance. Taking an entire class of -50s and getting them to pass demands an elite command of the teaching process, while taking a class of 10s and getting them to 70 is so so. The latter will end up with higher test scores, but that doesn't reflect the teaching job that has been done relative to the former. If both teachers worked for me, I bonus the first one, and tell the second one he better pick it up next quarter. That's how "the real world" works. IF we are trying to bring "the real world"/business to education, then we need to it properly.
Alaska Darin Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 If students fail, the teacher is a failure. Falure = lack of merit. You're a !@#$ing idiot.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 You're a !@#$ing idiot. Really. So what do YOU propose? Letting incompetents continue in their job with no standard of measurement? !@#$ you. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances, especially in ghetto schools. But if a student's attendance is good and he or she fails to learn, who's responsible? Both parents and teachers. That being said, parents aren't paid to parent. Teachers ARE paid to teach and if students aren't learning, something isn't working, and it's probably the teacher. So, in all your glory, wisdom and grandeur, please impart your genius upon us, !@#$. I'm brimming with excitement to hear your solution, !@#$stick.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 So if Lil Johnny comes to school 2 days a week because his parents don't give a sheet, which of these do you want to see? And which do you think will happen? A) Teacher continues teaching; Lil Johnny fails cuz he didn't come to school and as a result, the teacher gets their pay docked And what if little Johnny has adequate attendance but still fails? B) Teacher holds up the whole class so Lil Johnny can catch up; the rest of the class gets screwed but Lil Johnny passes and teacher gets paid Guess what? Socialist teachers and administrators got their wish when they mainstreamed LD and remedial students into normal classrooms. So why don't you geniuses figure out how to fix this particular mess YOU made? Or maybe, we could return to what worked. Segregation by ability level. C) Instead of going home to eat dinner with their family, Teacher instead goes to Lil Johnny's house and spends the evening tutoring him (and then to Lil Jimmy's house who's going to fail cuz his Mom is a methhead; and then to Lil Janey's house who's going to fail cuz her Mom is out drinking every night; and then to Lil Jackie's house cuz Dad is in jail, etc etc etc) Isn't this the usual story we all hear from NEA propagandists? D) All the evil liberal teachers are fired and replaced by conservative clergy who teach christian education courses all day and work for half the price and the occasional bit of 11 year old ass. Right, because all conservative religious people MUST be child molesters. Not like all the queers that liberals want influencing children, right? Again, you people are all about throwing out roadblocks to actual reform, but your "solutions" never extend beyond "let's spend more per student and increase salaries and protection fro teachers!" Let's hear some REAL solutions, if you have them.
Adam Posted June 16, 2010 Posted June 16, 2010 There is no magic bullet solution and it is a waste of time to look for one. You just have to weigh variables on a case to case basis, and if that ruffles parents/students/teachers feathers, that's too bad.
Alaska Darin Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 Really. So what do YOU propose? Letting incompetents continue in their job with no standard of measurement? Yeah, that's certainly what I'd propose. !@#$ you. Of course there can be extenuating circumstances, especially in ghetto schools. But if a student's attendance is good and he or she fails to learn, who's responsible? Both parents and teachers. That being said, parents aren't paid to parent. Teachers ARE paid to teach and if students aren't learning, something isn't working, and it's probably the teacher. Bull. You should be embarrassed that you actually typed out that load of horseshit. For someone who supposedly has the "inside knowledge", you are a complete barbarian. So, in all your glory, wisdom and grandeur, please impart your genius upon us, !@#$. I'm brimming with excitement to hear your solution, !@#$stick. I would propose a revamping of the entire system. Everyone doesn't learn the same way. It's time to adapt education to how kids learn, instead of continuing the ridiculous failure of trying to fit every peg into the same shape hole. We could probably cut the number of teacher's by half if we leveraged technology to get the best teachers into multiple classrooms via Telepresence or something similar. Your "solution" has already been tried and it's a complete failure. If you need me to explain it, then you're a lot dumber than even I think.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I would propose a revamping of the entire system. Everyone doesn't learn the same way. It's time to adapt education to how kids learn, instead of continuing the ridiculous failure of trying to fit every peg into the same shape hole. Now this is actually a good idea. I think that something like this plus a return to ability testing and education by ability level would go a long way toward improving outcomes. Great idea. We could probably cut the number of teacher's by half if we leveraged technology to get the best teachers into multiple classrooms via Telepresence or something similar. This could also be integrated with virtual at-home education, as well. It's ideas like these that you're putting forward that could help break the stranglehold that the NEA and AFT have on education and empower students to actually learn something. But, barring these radical reforms (don't fool yourself, the unions and even administrators will fight them tooth and nail), something needs to be done to help tilt the field and keep feet to the fire. What would work in the short term? I'm not sure I know.
Adam Posted June 19, 2010 Posted June 19, 2010 I would advocate a system that has the principal and/or the school board and other teachers view teachers in their classrooms. Also, have post school day meetings. The eye test is the most effective way- and the teachers can discuss what they see working and what isn't. Another thing is that some student should be allowed/expected to fail- making it to college isn't for everyone and the idea that it is has devalued the bachelor's degree. And the idea that if kids aren't doing well, the teacher should be fired is as moronic as firing the coach of a losing team. You don't know if that is the problem- most often, it isn't.
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