Beerball Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 A good player who had the misfortune of playing on some really bad teams. That good? Not in my opinion.
K Gun Special Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Yes, every player at every position is only good if they measure up to the two best ever. i didnt originally bring those two up, just using the example put forth by others. There are many good sack players that dont measure up that are better than schobel, J. Allen J Taylor Pepper Freeney strahan etc Schobel didnt make the players around him better, he wasn't in that class. he was a very good player for the Bills for 9 seasons.
NoSaint Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Not really, Bruce and others didnt play their whole career on playoff contenders with great Defense around them. Its too easy of an argument to say schobel is better then we think bc his team sucked. Great players make the players around them better. Jason taylor for example has racked up sacks on some pretty bad teams. Taylor played 4 more years, if you tack on 4 years at last years production for schobel, there careers are VERY similar -- taylor with more turnovers, but from OLB i imagine its a little easier to get those. the sack numbers would be identical.
34-78-83 Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Not really, Bruce and others didnt play their whole career on playoff contenders with great Defense around them. Its too easy of an argument to say schobel is better then we think bc his team sucked. Great players make the players around them better. Jason taylor for example has racked up sacks on some pretty bad teams. It's too hard of an argument to tell you to go back and watch the guy on TV playback. He's done it consistently over his career against varying levels of competition, and plays the run individually quite well to boot. I wouldn't call him a HOF'er mind you, but If you watch him play and know what you're watching, that's all you need. Stats have become too prominent in the attempted analysis of the modern football fan. And Jason Taylor is/was pretty damn good too... Point? Some of his "bad teams" still had really good defenses.
Delete This Account Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 i think the question is somewhat slanted. the same question can be asked in this sense: was Schobel that bad? a better way to phrase it, to be objective, would be "Rate Schobel's tenure." but i'm picking nits, i guess. the answer, i think to all of those questions was he was better than average and worthy of his two Pro Bowl selections. adequate pass-rushing defensive ends are hard to find, especially ones that can average 8-plus sacks a season. given how messed up the Bills defense was during part of Schobel's tenure, i think it's a testament to how better than average that he was. was he in the Jason Taylor caliber? no. there's nothing wrong with that. and he wasn't in the Erik Flowers' caliber either. and that's not an altogether unfair comparison given that Flowers was a late first round pick and Schobel selected in the second. those posters, however, who label Schobel as "a tool" etc. seem to do so from the comfort of their knee-jerk anonymity because it's far easier to be negative, and especially on the intrawebs, where few really have to justify their opinions, so long as they have them, and so long they're as outrageous as possible to get noticed. but really, what's the point of having a reasoned discussion when being a blowhard is much easier. jw
Steely Dan Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 i think the question is somewhat slanted. the same question can be asked in this sense: was Schobel that bad?a better way to phrase it, to be objective, would be "Rate Schobel's tenure." but i'm picking nits, i guess. the answer, i think to all of those questions was he was better than average and worthy of his two Pro Bowl selections. adequate pass-rushing defensive ends are hard to find, especially ones that can average 8-plus sacks a season. given how messed up the Bills defense was during part of Schobel's tenure, i think it's a testament to how better than average that he was. was he in the Jason Taylor caliber? no. there's nothing wrong with that. and he wasn't in the Erik Flowers' caliber either. and that's not an altogether unfair comparison given that Flowers was a late first round pick and Schobel selected in the second. those posters, however, who label Schobel as "a tool" etc. seem to do so from the comfort of their knee-jerk anonymity because it's far easier to be negative, and especially on the intrawebs, where few really have to justify their opinions, so long as they have them, and so long they're as outrageous as possible to get noticed. but really, what's the point of having a reasoned discussion when being a blowhard is much easier. jw That's the best thing you've written!
NoSaint Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 i think the question is somewhat slanted. the same question can be asked in this sense: was Schobel that bad?a better way to phrase it, to be objective, would be "Rate Schobel's tenure." but i'm picking nits, i guess. the answer, i think to all of those questions was he was better than average and worthy of his two Pro Bowl selections. adequate pass-rushing defensive ends are hard to find, especially ones that can average 8-plus sacks a season. given how messed up the Bills defense was during part of Schobel's tenure, i think it's a testament to how better than average that he was. was he in the Jason Taylor caliber? no. there's nothing wrong with that. and he wasn't in the Erik Flowers' caliber either. and that's not an altogether unfair comparison given that Flowers was a late first round pick and Schobel selected in the second. those posters, however, who label Schobel as "a tool" etc. seem to do so from the comfort of their knee-jerk anonymity because it's far easier to be negative, and especially on the intrawebs, where few really have to justify their opinions, so long as they have them, and so long they're as outrageous as possible to get noticed. but really, what's the point of having a reasoned discussion when being a blowhard is much easier. jw I think thats roughly where many of us assess him - i do think hes much closer to a Taylor then most want to admit - but like i said, taylor forced more turnovers, and those are game changing plays... Taylor also is a household name dancing with the stars, espn interviews, he played in miami which is a big market -- he embraced being a star... people got to know the man that is jason taylor, or atleast felt like they did. i think that difference answers why there arent many 94 jerseys in the stands, as someone earlier mentioned... it was hard to relate to schobel as a person. We dont know who he really is, and you see comments about him being a strange breed of man. ultimately i think that skews a lot of peoples opinions of his play too. We like what we can relate to. I do wonder what he couldve been on a better team though.....
Delete This Account Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 That's the best thing you've written! quit feeding the troll (me) ... jw
Steely Dan Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 quit feeding the troll (me) ... jw Dude, I only consider you a troll by looks.
Delete This Account Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Dude, I only consider you a troll by looks. well, as noted before my 'GR gig this past week, i do admit to having a "radio" face. jw
CardinalScotts Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Guy was a real NFL player that could have played for any team in the league, we haven't had too many of those the last 10 years
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Always with the relative success appraisals. "Well he was good on a bad team therefore great..." yada, yada, yada. Relativistic appraisals aside, you either make plays or you don't. He did, including lots of tackles and lots of sacks, therefore he was one of Buffalo's best DE's ever and a distant second to Bruce (which is still pretty good as Bruce was a Sweetness, Rice, Rod Woodson type of rare player).
Simon Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 SO its not horrible reasoning, just not simplistic analysis which seems to be the hallmark of many posters on here. Says the guy who is measuring Schobel's ability by sack numbers. Taylor played 4 more years, if you tack on 4 years at last years production for schobel, there careers are VERY similar -- taylor with more turnovers, but from OLB i imagine its a little easier to get those. the sack numbers would be identical. This is coming from a guy who usually sticks up for his fellow players from Western PA: Taylor was the ultimate oneplayagame superstar. He'd usually make one spectacularly athletic play a game (almost always in the first half) that would make everybody go "Wow!". And then he'd disappear and be a total non-factor in every aspect of the game for the remainder of the day. Schobel never made anybody go "Wow!" but he was there all day, every day, being effective in every aspect of the game. One of the smartest, most versatile DE's you'll ever see. Jason Taylor was nowhere near the player that Schobel was (is?).
Steely Dan Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Says the guy who is measuring Schobel's ability by sack numbers. This is coming from a guy who usually sticks up for his fellow players from Western PA: Taylor was the ultimate oneplayagame superstar. He'd usually make one spectacularly athletic play a game (almost always in the first half) that would make everybody go "Wow!". And then he'd disappear and be a total non-factor in every aspect of the game for the remainder of the day. Schobel never made anybody go "Wow!" but he was there all day, every day, being effective in every aspect of the game. One of the smartest, most versatile DE's you'll ever see. Jason Taylor was nowhere near the player that Schobel was (is?).
Kingfish Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Schobel was the only Bill who consistently showed up for the New England games. How people were critical of him was beyond me.
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