Was Schobel that good?

[34-78-83]

why is eeryone saying he was so classy? im not saying he was classless but he was neither friendly nor nice. He was a good DE but was kind of not that important the last 4 seasons. Last years 10 sacks arent a big deal, he racked up 3 sacks in the ATL game we were getting romped in. THe guy picked up stats in game situations that meant nothing, maybe he couldve received more appreciation if the team did better, but they didnt. maybe a few timely sacks instead of garbage time couldve changed that.

 

Horrible reasoning... Just horrible

Every Sack master gets the majority of their sacks 1- at "garbage time" with a big lead (which the Bills almost never had) and 2- Against weaker competition (ie Bruce 4 sacks on Jeff George in one game, Reggie White getting 2 or 3 every time he played the Lions). That's how it works.

[Bill from NYC]

Horrible reasoning... Just horrible

Every Sack master gets the majority of their sacks 1- at "garbage time" with a big lead (which the Bills almost never had) and 2- Against weaker competition (ie Bruce 4 sacks on Jeff George in one game, Reggie White getting 2 or 3 every time he played the Lions). That's how it works.

 

Absolutely correct, as usual. It also helps not to be the only pass rusher on the entire front 4.

[Ramius]

I did a long study on this topic a while back, but unfortunately it was lost in the board crash of '08. I took a look at the top sack leaders and as it turns out, all of the top guys typically generate half of their season sack total in 2-3 big games.

[dave mcbride]

why is eeryone saying he was so classy? im not saying he was classless but he was neither friendly nor nice. He was a good DE but was kind of not that important the last 4 seasons. Last years 10 sacks arent a big deal, he racked up 3 sacks in the ATL game we were getting romped in. THe guy picked up stats in game situations that meant nothing, maybe he couldve received more appreciation if the team did better, but they didnt. maybe a few timely sacks instead of garbage time couldve changed that.

Cherry picking sack stats isn't the only way to judge a player. In any case, look up the sack stats of any player in the league over the past 29 years (when they started gathering sack stats) and you'll the same -- good players feasting in certain games. The bottom line: he was (is?) an excellent all-around player. He's also sacked Brady more than any other player in the league.

[dave mcbride]

Horrible reasoning... Just horrible

Every Sack master gets the majority of their sacks 1- at "garbage time" with a big lead (which the Bills almost never had) and 2- Against weaker competition (ie Bruce 4 sacks on Jeff George in one game, Reggie White getting 2 or 3 every time he played the Lions). That's how it works.

Indeed. Moreover, it makes the fact that he got three sacks against Atlanta - a good team with a lead - all the more impressive. This wasn't Bruce Smith against Jeff George and the 2-11 Colts ...

[Kelly the Dog]

I did a long study on this topic a while back, but unfortunately it was lost in the board crash of '08. I took a look at the top sack leaders and as it turns out, all of the top guys typically generate half of their season sack total in 2-3 big games.

Averaging almost 10 sacks a season on a team with one of the worst offenses in the league over his entire career that rarely with a sizable lead is amazing.

[Pirate Angel]

He was good not great, not a hall of famer, not elite but effective. He solidified a position for a very long time, the one postion we where not screaming for an upgrade on here every offseason. In this game your only as good as the people around you and he played on alot of bad teams.

[Steely Dan]

Probably the best Bills player of the decade. And one of the classiest Bills of all time.

 

 

 

Yeah, he was. That's the bottom line. Consistently the best player on the Bills defense at the most physically difficult position in a 4 - 3. He forced teams to game-plan against him at a time when we had nobody else on defense that required teams to worry about them.

 

Was he a Bruce Smith? Hell, no, but he has never claimed to be, and has never really blown his own horn.

 

But was he an excellent player consistently throughout a career with few injuries outside 2008? Yeah, he really was. On a successful team, especially a team that hadn't had a Bruce Smith type of guy against whom everyone is compared, and most especially if he had been on a team with two or three other top defenders to draw attention, he would be feted. Here and under these conditions, he's pooh-poohed. But not by opposing offenses.

 

The problem any DE will have on this team is that they will ALWAYS be compared to Smith and that's really not fair. Smith was the greatest ever.

 

 

After he went out in 2008 I couldn't stand watching opposing QBs sit back in the pocket, survey the field, have a sandwich, and throw a completion. I didn't see that last year when he was back.

 

It's not just the sacks that made him so important. He consistently limited the time the QB had to survey the field. Sacks are important but often overrated. Even when Schobel didn't get to the QB he still made the mental clock tick a tock faster, b/c that QB knew he had to get rid of the ball.

 

I would argue that Schobel was better against the run in his first two years than Smith was. JMO

 

 

He was damm good. He played on mostly lousy teams and he still excelled.

 

He leadership is without question. If we had more Schobel's we would have won more games. He will be missed.

 

:thumbsup:

 

 

When Aaron Schobel is the best player of the decade, your team does not make the playoffs. Would be a great second or third best player on defense, but did not provide the leadership in the locker room, practice field to make the team better.

 

I thought he was so overrated at times I talked myself into thinking he sucked. Then I'd rewatch the games on tivo and realize he was constantly making plays. His pass rushing was obviously well regarded, but he made so many hustle tackles downfield in the run game and had so many forced fumbles (the Jets game in 2008 comes to mind as a particularly great strip) that I think his every down play was underappreciated.

 

At the end of the day, he was a very solid player, but hardly the difference-maker you'd expect given his 10-12-14 sack seasons. The numbers made him seem more than he really was. If he was so good how come you never see any of your buddies in #94 jerseys at the games?

 

To the bolded.

 

 

Horrible reasoning... Just horrible

Every Sack master gets the majority of their sacks 1- at "garbage time" with a big lead (which the Bills almost never had) and 2- Against weaker competition (ie Bruce 4 sacks on Jeff George in one game, Reggie White getting 2 or 3 every time he played the Lions). That's how it works.

 

What he said!

 

BS has 200 sacks in 234 games for 1.17 sacks a game. The #4 all time sack leader, Chris Doleman has 150 sacks over 232 games for a .64 per game.The #10 all time sack leader, Rickey Jackson has 128 sacks over 227 games for .56 sacks a game. Jim Jeffcoat the #20 all time sack leader has 102 sacks in 227 games for .45 per game. Schobel has 78 career sacks in 133 games for a .59 sack per game average. If Schobel played three more years he might be able to get 25 more sacks and move into the top 20. JMO

 

Schobel is .05 sacks per game behind the #4 all time sack leader and .03 sacks per game ahead of the #10 all time sack leader and .14 ahead of the #20 all time sack leader.

 

They didn't start recording tackle stats until 2001 so comparing his tackle numbers can't be done.

 

I'd love to see him crack the top 20.

 

IMO, he's an old timer HOF player.

[milehiLou]

the guy is a tool. retire sucker, you are an old dog, a one trick pony, washed up, and small. second in sacks all time for the bills and hes acting like marshawn lynch. imagine if there was a decent player on the rd end position for the last decade, maybe the run might have been stopped. how many tackles for loss on running backs did he have in his career? a 240 # de is the reason we have been crap for ten yrs.

bills fans will effortlessly forget this self ablsorbed, overrated garbage time sack master who couldnt stop the run.

[Simon]

the guy is a tool. retire sucker, you are an old dog, a one trick pony, washed up, and small. second in sacks all time for the bills and hes acting like marshawn lynch. imagine if there was a decent player on the rd end position for the last decade, maybe the run might have been stopped. how many tackles for loss on running backs did he have in his career? a 240 # de is the reason we have been crap for ten yrs.

bills fans will effortlessly forget this self ablsorbed, overrated garbage time sack master who couldnt stop the run.

One of the funniest posts I've ever seen on here.

[Adam]

Throw out the stats, they will trick you both ways. Aaron Schobel has been a very good player for us who has been very productive. With the front offices we have had, if we took money from him to bring in somebody else, we'd end up with a scrub. He isn't a game changer, but he is a guy who can help you a lot.

[K Gun Special]

Horrible reasoning... Just horrible

Every Sack master gets the majority of their sacks 1- at "garbage time" with a big lead (which the Bills almost never had) and 2- Against weaker competition (ie Bruce 4 sacks on Jeff George in one game, Reggie White getting 2 or 3 every time he played the Lions). That's how it works.

 

 

Haha, the guy averaged 8.5 sacks a year.

Sack masters like White and Smith were averaging 11 and 12 sacks per year in their first 9 years (how long aaron played).

 

Look through Smiths years, he racked up sacks almost every game with 3 or 4 multi sack games, usually 2 a game in those.

 

 

SO its not horrible reasoning, just not simplistic analysis which seems to be the hallmark of many posters on here.

[K Gun Special]

Throw out the stats, they will trick you both ways. Aaron Schobel has been a very good player for us who has been very productive. With the front offices we have had, if we took money from him to bring in somebody else, we'd end up with a scrub. He isn't a game changer, but he is a guy who can help you a lot.

 

 

Yes i couldn't agree more. We arent losing a game breaking sack man; especially considering the change in defensive scheme.

[Kelly the Dog]

Haha, the guy averaged 8.5 sacks a year.

Sack masters like White and Smith were averaging 11 and 12 sacks per year in their first 9 years (how long aaron played).

 

Look through Smiths years, he racked up sacks almost every game with 3 or 4 multi sack games, usually 2 a game in those.

 

 

SO its not horrible reasoning, just not simplistic analysis which seems to be the hallmark of many posters on here.

Bruce averaged 9.4 his first 9 years (he had one injury year, as did Schobel). And this was on a team for more than half of it that had a ridiculously explosive offense, often playing with huge leads where teams were forced to pass early and often (where you get most of your sacks).

 

I'm not at all saying Schobel was anywhere near Bruce, who is one of the 2-3 best ever. But if you put Schobel on a team with an explosive offense, and the likes of Bennett and Talley, etc, he would have averaged 2-3 more sacks per season.

[34-78-83]

Haha, the guy averaged 8.5 sacks a year.

Sack masters like White and Smith were averaging 11 and 12 sacks per year in their first 9 years (how long aaron played).

 

Look through Smiths years, he racked up sacks almost every game with 3 or 4 multi sack games, usually 2 a game in those.

 

 

SO its not horrible reasoning, just not simplistic analysis which seems to be the hallmark of many posters on here.

 

Your reasoning is poor here too though (I'll refrain from horrible).

1- Sack masters with the "numbers" we are referring to played on PLAYOFF CONTENDERS. AS did not....hence no big leads in the 2nd half of games, no "tee-off" time like they all enjoyed. No fellow above average pass rushers on the D-Line w/ him either.

2- AS will never be confused with Bruce, he's just better than he's given credit for by many Bills fans.

[NoSaint]

Best summary yet on this topic. He was very good, but some of the posts (he'd have been a HOFer on another team??) are a little over the top.

 

 

 

Apparently the standard for "classy" in the NFL is anyone who doesn't get arrested for drugs, guns, wife beating/rape or running over people with your car.

 

How many DEs put up a better decade?

 

Tack another 3-4 productive years (ie he continues, and plays like he did last year instead of retiring), and hes at well over 100 sacks.

 

If you put him on a big market team with playoff appearances, or heaven forbid a ring..... not to mention playing for a team that often has the lead would have inflated his numbers. Yes, in a better situation, he might have found himself in those discussions. I am certainly not saying based on the career he has had today he is borderline, but he might have played himself into those talks on another team -- he might have pissed off the coach with his lack of leadership and been a journeyman too, mostly i was just saying hes had a stellar career, and its sad we ask "was he really that good?"

[3rdnlng]

It seems to me that I read somewhere recently that he was second in the league in sacks for the time he has been in the league. Sorry, no link.

[bills in va]

The guy was fast off the edge and I can still see him intercepting the Brady throw and running in for a touchdown last year in the first game and it could be that he was on teams that were not real good for an entire decade.

 

I, however, don't feel as if he was that great. I never heard of him being a great leader in the lockerroom, his sacks weren't exactly timely or clutch, and it seemed like he was injured quite a bit especially during the last two or three years.

 

He was a solid Bill and played hard when he was in there but this does not seem like as big a loss as the media is making it. Hope I don't have to eat these words.

How many other guys are second in team history in sacks, never busted for PED's, great person On and OFF the field, and are white? I can't think of another. he was that GREAT!

[K Gun Special]

Your reasoning is poor here too though (I'll refrain from horrible).

1- Sack masters with the "numbers" we are referring to played on PLAYOFF CONTENDERS. AS did not....hence no big leads in the 2nd half of games, no "tee-off" time like they all enjoyed. No fellow above average pass rushers on the D-Line w/ him either.

2- AS will never be confused with Bruce, he's just better than he's given credit for by many Bills fans.

 

 

Not really, Bruce and others didnt play their whole career on playoff contenders with great Defense around them.

 

Its too easy of an argument to say schobel is better then we think bc his team sucked. Great players make the players around them better.

 

Jason taylor for example has racked up sacks on some pretty bad teams.

[Steely Dan]

Haha, the guy averaged 8.5 sacks a year.

Sack masters like White and Smith were averaging 11 and 12 sacks per year in their first 9 years (how long aaron played).

 

Look through Smiths years, he racked up sacks almost every game with 3 or 4 multi sack games, usually 2 a game in those.

 

 

SO its not horrible reasoning, just not simplistic analysis which seems to be the hallmark of many posters on here.

 

Yes, every player at every position is only good if they measure up to the two best ever.