The real reason Pete Carroll left USC

[John Cocktosten]

They won a single BCS title, got a split from the AP when LSU won the BCS, and choked against the VY led Longhorns.

Probably one of the more ridiculous statements I've heard on this board. VY was one of the greatest college players ever and should've won the Heisman. David Thomas, Sweed, Crosby and Jamaal Charles were all on that offense. Not to mention they had an Oline of All Americans. On defense they had Crowder, Robinson, R. Wright, Ced Griffen, Aaron Ross and Michael Huff. 13 of their starters were drafted! They beat a very good 4th ranked Ohio State team at the Horseshoe, they destroyed OU and they beat Colorado 70-3 in the Big 12 championship game!

How the hell is that a choke? UT was great that year.

[KD in CA]

Wow...it's even harsher than than initially reported:

 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news...penalties061010

 

 

I guess the sanctions against the basketball and women's tennis teams are also Pete Carroll's fault.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

USC is being punished because the program broke the rules. Not just Carroll, but the whole program. Carroll was acting as an employee/agent of that program and those in charge of it were/are responsible for his actions. What are you guys suggesting, that a college program can cheat all it wants, and as long as it switches coaches every time it get caught there is no penalty???

 

As for players caught in a bad situation, guess what? Life isn't fair. Some guys go to a program where the coach quits or gets fired. Some guys go to a school where the coach promised them they would be a starter and then find out another player was recruited for the same position. It sucks for them too. They are all free to pursue a college career at another school; that is their out from a bad situation.

The program did break the rules. Interestingly, the man who hired Pete Carroll, AD Mike Garrett was himself a Heisman winner at SC and has been AD since 1993. I don't remember SC getting sanctioned by the NCAA before the arrival of Pete Carroll though. Odd how the violations occurred during Carroll's tenure and not before.

 

And life isn't fair? Of course it's not fair. But that's not the same thing as saying that fairness shouldn't be strived for. Why is it that we get outraged by certain events? Often times it's because our sense of fairness is offended. As in this case. To be flippant and dismissive of this situation is pretty callous in my opinion. There are 50-60 kids on that team that have just been screwed by circumstances beyond their control. And you say, "life isn't fair?"

 

Sure they can go to another school but unlike your analogy of a student transferring to another school, the athlete has to wait a year before resuming their athletic pursuits while the coach can just go onto the next job. Do you think this is an equitable and fair arrangement? Or you just don't care?

 

It has nothing to do with the money but it was like he was rewarded for cheating without repercussions. Not sure what pumping gas has to do with anything.

 

Carroll WAS the USC football program. How can you even argue that fact?

 

If a kids not good enough to play, then he's not good enough play regardless of what he's told. If a guy gets fired or quits, does that make the team ineligible for bowl games (which are a reward to the athlete for working hard)?

 

I like what RaiderEast said, strip the school of the money and let the kids play. As far as the NCAA is concerned, this team didn't do anything wrong yet they are paying for the 2004 teams transgressions. There is not one player on the current roster who played on that team BTW.

 

Lastly, why couldn't the NCAA speed things up and get this done years ago? This happened in '04! They should have at least had it done before Feb 1st on signing day.

 

 

You're right, I can't possibly argue with a statement as obtuse as that one.

 

USC didn't even have a football program before Pete Carroll, did they? Ditto for Texas w/ Mack Brown I suppose.

That's right KD. Although they did have a glorious past, SC was in the pooper when Carroll was hired. He brought them back to prominence. He gets credit for their excellence but you think he doesn't deserve criticism for being at the helm of a program that played loose with the rules?

 

The major difference there is that if the student has enrolled for the fall semester and the prof. leaves then they can transfer somewhere else in the Spring and not have to wait a year.

Amen.

 

Wow...it's even harsher than than initially reported:

 

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news...penalties061010

 

 

I guess the sanctions against the basketball and women's tennis teams are also Pete Carroll's fault.

Look, the majority of the sanctions had to do with the football program. And you probably didn't help yourself by citing this article.

 

"Bush and Mayo were able to engage in rule-breaking at least in part because of USC’s negligence, which included lack of staffing in the area of compliance, lax regulation on the sidelines and in the locker room, and, in at least one instance, a rebuke of running backs coach Todd McNair, who the NCAA cited for lying during the investigation.

 

Said the report, “[McNair] knew or should have known that [bush] and [New Era Sports marketing agents] were engaged in violations that negatively affected [bush’s] amateurism status. The assistant football coach provided false and misleading information to the enforcement staff concerning his knowledge of [the marketing agents’] activity and also violated NCAA legislation by signing a document certifying that he had no knowledge of NCAA violations.”

 

That's right. The runnng backs coach, hired by Pete Carroll and USC's top recruiter, Todd McNair protected Bush from scrutiny.

 

Do you really think Pete Carroll had no role in USC running a dirty program?

 

KD, It seems like you're pretty entrenched in your view and that no one will change your mind. That's fine.

 

If you were the NCAA, how would you punish USC for these transgressions?

[Cynical]

The program did break the rules. Interestingly, the man who hired Pete Carroll, AD Mike Garrett was himself a Heisman winner at SC and has been AD since 1993. I don't remember SC getting sanctioned by the NCAA before the arrival of Pete Carroll though. Odd how the violations occurred during Carroll's tenure and not before.

 

And life isn't fair? Of course it's not fair. But that's not the same thing as saying that fairness shouldn't be strived for. Why is it that we get outraged by certain events? Often times it's because our sense of fairness is offended. As in this case. To be flippant and dismissive of this situation is pretty callous in my opinion. There are 50-60 kids on that team that have just been screwed by circumstances beyond their control. And you say, "life isn't fair?"

 

Sure they can go to another school but unlike your analogy of a student transferring to another school, the athlete has to wait a year before resuming their athletic pursuits while the coach can just go onto the next job. Do you think this is an equitable and fair arrangement? Or you just don't care?

 

I am trying to find it, but IIRC, since USC has been slapped with a postseason ban, the student athlete's can transfer without penalty (meaning, they will not have to sit out a year).

[San Jose Bills Fan]

I am trying to find it, but IIRC, since USC has been slapped with a postseason ban, the student athlete's can transfer without penalty (meaning, they will not have to sit out a year).

That would be great and amazing.

 

Great for the kids and amazing that the NCAA would actually do something that sensible and accommodating.

 

Hope that's the case.

[Kelly the Dog]

The program did break the rules. Interestingly, the man who hired Pete Carroll, AD Mike Garrett was himself a Heisman winner at SC and has been AD since 1993. I don't remember SC getting sanctioned by the NCAA before the arrival of Pete Carroll though. Odd how the violations occurred during Carroll's tenure and not before.

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-0611-u...0,4874968.story

This is the sixth time the NCAA has sanctioned USC dating back to 1957. Only 10 major college programs have been penalized more often since the organization started keeping track in 1953.

[John Cocktosten]

I am trying to find it, but IIRC, since USC has been slapped with a postseason ban, the student athlete's can transfer without penalty (meaning, they will not have to sit out a year).

In typical backwards NCAA logic, only Juniors and Seniors will be allowed to transfer without penalty. Here's the kicker though, if they transfer within the Pac 10/16, they will have to sit out a year!

 

The formation of these power-conferences will not only make a billion dollars but it will render the NCAA powerless! How great will that be?!?!?

[Cynical]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-0611-u...0,4874968.story

 

Auburn University being one of them.

 

That's why I always laugh when Barn fans complain about Bama cheating.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-0611-u...0,4874968.story

Thanks for posting, Kelly.

 

I just saw where it was the first sanctions to the football program since 1995. That was also a situation involving a running back.

[Cynical]

Here's kind of what I was looking for:

 

13.1.1.3.3 Transfer from Institution Placed on Probation by Committee on Infractions. It is

not necessary for an institution to obtain permission in writing to recruit a student-athlete at an institution

that has been placed on probation with sanctions that preclude it from competing in postseason competition

during the remaining seasons of the student-athlete’s eligibility. However, the student-athlete’s institution

must be notified of the recruitment and may establish reasonable restrictions related to the contact

(e.g., no visits during class time), provided such restrictions do not preclude the opportunity for the student-athlete

to discuss transfer possibilities with the other institution [see Bylaw 14.8.2-©]. (Adopted: 1/10/92,

Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

 

And 14.8.2

 

14.8.2 Residence Requirement Waivers. The Legislative Council Subcommittee for Legislative Relief

may waive the one-year residence requirement for student-athletes under the following conditions or circumstances:

(Revised: 11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)

(a) ...

(b) ...

© On the recommendation of the Committee on Infractions, for a student-athlete who transfers to a member

institution to continue the student-athlete’s opportunity for full participation in a sport because the student-athlete’s

original institution was placed on probation by the NCAA with sanctions that would preclude the

institution’s team in that sport from participating in postseason competition during all of the remaining seasons

of the student-athlete’s eligibility (see also Bylaw 13.1.1.3.3); (Revised: 1/10/92)

(d) On the recommendation of the Committee on Athletics Certification for a student-athlete who transfers to

a member institution to continue the student-athlete’s opportunity for full participation in a sport because

the student-athlete’s original institution, per Bylaw 22.3.3, is placed in a membership category that would

preclude the institution’s team in that sport from participating in postseason competition during all of the

remaining seasons of the student-athlete’s eligibility; and (Adopted: 1/16/93 effective 1/1/94)

(e) On the recommendation of the Committee on Academic Performance, for a student-athlete who transfers to

a member institution to continue the student-athlete’s opportunity for full participation in a sport because

the student-athlete’s original institution is ineligible for postseason competition, pursuant to the Academic

Performance Program, that would preclude the institution’s team in that sport from participating in postseason

competition during all of the remaining seasons of the student-athlete’s eligibility, provided the student-athlete

would have been academically eligible had he or she remained at his or her original institution (see also

Bylaw 13.1.1.3.4). (Adopted: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

 

 

Essentially, the sanctioned school can have it's student athlete's raided (excuse me, recruited) by other schools, but the student cannot transfer without penalty unless the NCAA deems it OK.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Cynical

[KD in CA]

Do you really think Pete Carroll had no role in USC running a dirty program?

 

KD, It seems like you're pretty entrenched in your view and that no one will change your mind. That's fine.

 

If you were the NCAA, how would you punish USC for these transgressions?

 

First, where exactly did I say that Carroll had no role in running the program? Please link back to my post.

 

Second, what I said was, it's wrong to assume he had the only role and therefore the premise that it's "unfair" to punish USC since Carroll is gone is flawed. You jumped all over me so apparently you disagree with that but you have yet to explain yourself how YOU would punish USC so this type of behavior is properly disincented.

 

Entrenched in my view?? Good grief.

[Captain Caveman]

To everybody who is complaining that Carroll gets away without punishment, what exactly would you do? What can they do? I think he's a dirtbag, and I wish there was some way to make him feel some of this, but I don't see how it's possible, other than a possible lawsuit by USC to recover some of his salary (very unlikely to succeed.) His punishment will come when he's labeled as an NFL failure.

 

With that said, USC knew Carroll was a dirtbag, they knew people were breaking the rules, and they looked the other way (or possibly covered things up.) They did this because the football team generates a buttload of money. They deserve to be punished, and taking away their postseason opportunities does exactly this.

 

For the players who are there now, it sucks, but maybe they should have read the newspapers before committing to USC. This investigation and allegations have been around for years.

 

The players don't get to play in a bowl game, and that sucks. But USC deserves to lose the large amount of money and prestige that would be gained by playing bowl games for the next two years. There's a lesson to be learned, which is don't hire dirtbags. Good luck with Lane Kiffin.

[John Cocktosten]

For the players who are there now, it sucks, but maybe they should have read the newspapers before committing to USC. This investigation and allegations have been around for years.

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with college recruiting becuase every coach tells the prospects that every coach/team is under investigation. Have you ever seen anything but fluff on Carroll? Last year ESPN ran a segment on Carroll giving a kid who just lost his eyesight amazing access to the program and even having the team show up before and after his eye surgery to support him. It was one of the more touching things that I've ever seen on TV and it left me in freeking tears! On 60 minutes last year they featured Carroll going into Compton at night AFTER A GAME talking to gangs and encouraging them to teach the young kids right from wrong. Another very touching segment.

 

Now if you think the recruits are reading the Op Eds in the LA Times instead of watching ESPN you're crazy. Every article that I've read and every talking head on TV were shocked at how severe the punishment was but a kid in Minnesota is supposed to be able to differentiate truth from rumor? That's realistic.

 

Your attitude towards these prospects is incredibly callus considering how amazing it is for these kids to be consdered by USC let alone be offered 1 of 25 scholarships for that year. Most of them have worked so hard to get this point and you say "it sucks"? Sounds like you have a little bit of bitterness going on there. Maybe a case of the Uncle Rico's..

[Captain Caveman]

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with college recruiting becuase every coach tells the prospects that every coach/team is under investigation. Have you ever seen anything but fluff on Carroll? Last year ESPN ran a segment on Carroll giving a kid who just lost his eyesight amazing access to the program and even having the team show up before and after his eye surgery to support him. It was one of the more touching things that I've ever seen on TV and it left me in freeking tears! On 60 minutes last year they featured Carroll going into Compton at night AFTER A GAME talking to gangs and encouraging them to teach the young kids right from wrong. Another very touching segment.

 

Now if you think the recruits are reading the Op Eds in the LA Times instead of watching ESPN you're crazy. Every article that I've read and every talking head on TV were shocked at how severe the punishment was but a kid in Minnesota is supposed to be able to differentiate truth from rumor? That's realistic.

 

Your attitude towards these prospects is incredibly callus considering how amazing it is for these kids to be consdered by USC let alone be offered 1 of 25 scholarships for that year. Most of them have worked so hard to get this point and you say "it sucks"? Sounds like you have a little bit of bitterness going on there. Maybe a case of the Uncle Rico's..

 

If I come across as bitter it's not because I have any failed dreams of college glory. I never played football (I was a hockey man.) I do get pissed at Universities that constantly break NCAA rules without punishment. In this case, I think the punishment pretty much fits the crime.

 

I still haven't seen you propose anything realistic or fair. So what's your solution? Impose no punishment? Say, hey guys you screwed up, and made millions off it (to some extent off of other schools) but no big deal? You won a national championship with a player who should have been ineligible, don't worry about it? The NCAA is out to punish the University, not the players. Unfortunately the players also get punished.

 

Finally, you make it sound like these players have to sit on their ass for two years. They still get to play football. They still get a free college education. They still get to audition for NFL scouts. They miss two bowl games. Get over it.

[Captain Caveman]

Maybe you should familiarize yourself with college recruiting becuase every coach tells the prospects that every coach/team is under investigation.

 

I didn't mention anything about what college coaches tell kids. These are college bound student athletes, right? If they don't have the wherewithal to do a tiny bit of investigating on their own, then I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. I'm not talking about what a coach tells you who obviously has ulterior motives, I'm talking about reports that have been in newspapers, and on other "news" outlets (e.g. espn, etc...) for years.

[Captain Caveman]

Even if players are only watching ESPN, there has been plenty reported on this.

 

http://search.espn.go.com/usc-investigation/past-years/22

[John Cocktosten]

I still haven't seen you propose anything realistic or fair. So what's your solution?

Here is what I would propose:

-Scholarship reductions -Punishing USC, not the kids

-Heavily fine the school and make them repay revenue earned from the NC game. -Punishing USC, not the kids

-Take back all wins from '04, including the NC. - Punishing USC, not the kids.

-Fine Mike Garrett - If you've ever read anything about him, you'd know that he was well aware of Bush and Mayo.

-Take back Bush's Heisman and taking his name off of every record from '05. - Punishing Bush and not the kids.

-Ban Carroll, Garrett, Bush and McNair (bush's RB coach) for at least 5 years from anything regarding college athetics. - Punishing the culprits, not the kids who were freshman in high school when this was taking place.

 

I really don't see how any of these things are far fetched or beyond the reach of the NCAA. Yet, the only people truly punished in this whole mess are the players on the current (6 years later) USC football team.

 

Lastly, outside of the BCS, the bowl games are a gift to the players for their hard work throughout the season. They are treated like kings and are given unbelievable gifts, attend parties and baquets in their honor. The game itself is also a showcase for NFL scouts which could cost Jr's and Sr's major visibility which means draft slotting and ultimately dollars for the players.

 

Don't be so short-sighted, not every football player is an a**hole or a spoiled idiot. For a lot of them this is their job and a few greedy bastards took that from them while they were at their high school freshman mixer.

[Captain Caveman]

Here is what I would propose:

-Scholarship reductions -Punishing USC, not the kids

-Heavily fine the school and make them repay revenue earned from the NC game. -Punishing USC, not the kids

-Take back all wins from '04, including the NC. - Punishing USC, not the kids.

-Fine Mike Garrett - If you've ever read anything about him, you'd know that he was well aware of Bush and Mayo.

-Take back Bush's Heisman and taking his name off of every record from '05. - Punishing Bush and not the kids.

-Ban Carroll, Garrett, Bush and McNair (bush's RB coach) for at least 5 years from anything regarding college athetics. - Punishing the culprits, not the kids who were freshman in high school when this was taking place.

 

I really don't see how any of these things are far fetched or beyond the reach of the NCAA. Yet, the only people truly punished in this whole mess are the players on the current (6 years later) USC football team.

 

Lastly, outside of the BCS, the bowl games are a gift to the players for their hard work throughout the season. They are treated like kings and are given unbelievable gifts, attend parties and baquets in their honor. The game itself is also a showcase for NFL scouts which could cost Jr's and Sr's major visibility which means draft slotting and ultimately dollars for the players.

 

Don't be so short-sighted, not every football player is an a**hole or a spoiled idiot. For a lot of them this is their job and a few greedy bastards took that from them while they were at their high school freshman mixer.

 

I don't know why you feel the need to belittle or insult people with opposing viewpoints, but it sucks. I think I've been pretty respectful so far.

 

I disagree strongly that scholarship reductions punishes USC but not the kids. You're talking about taking away a free education for multiple students, I think there should be a greater value on that than playing in a bowl game.

 

I didn't say that every (or any) "football player is an a**hole or a spoiled idiot." I said that USC broke the rules and is being punished. And if you think the kids are being punished more than the school, I disagree. The school will lose millions of dollars. I don't think NFL teams will penalize them for not playing in bowls. Maybe we disagree there.

 

My viewpoint is that the school ignored rule violations to make money. Sure, you can punish some of the individuals (e.g. coaches) who are still in college athletics, but it doesn't prevent the school from going out and hiring new rule-breakers who will continue to break and bend rules when it's to their advantage. We disagree. I'm moving on.

[John Cocktosten]

I don't know why you feel the need to belittle or insult people with opposing viewpoints, but it sucks. I think I've been pretty respectful so far.

I re-read my post and I don't see where I insulted or belittled you at all. So sorry if you feell that way.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

The NCAA is a messed up organization.

 

 

It's gotta be tough being in a broad reaching organization with the well constructed facade of no profit motive, when it is truly all about the money.

 

 

 

Like the Roman Catholic Church in the 1500’s