DrFishfinder Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Just a little sarcasm. Wasn't the cover story that it was a ship bringing "supplies" to Gaza? Funny how a supply ship was loaded with hundreds of people. Actually, I'm more than a little surprised that the provokers were careless enough to get caught attacking the soldiers with weapons. I really expected them to play it completely sterile. I don't know if they (the provokers) were poorly trained, untrained, lost their heads or were just tunes. We all knew they weren't going to be stupid enough to attempt to hide a few dozen nuclear warheads in the cement bags.
Bullpen Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Aaalllll abooooard!!! Next stop: Politics, Polls, & Pundits! Couldn't have said it better myself Levi.
Justice Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Poor, oppressed Palestinians suffering at the hands of Israeli oppressors! Here's a thought...throw out the leaders that launch rockets into Israel, and then MAYBE you can live with peace and prosperity. Naivete. I agree, but Yasser Arafat died and the ultimate US/Israeli puppet Abbas was named President and that didn't seem to help very much. Yes, they really are innocent. Is that why they stabbed several Israeli commandos and left them in pools of their own blood? The people on the boats fully intended for it to end in bloodshed. How many Israeli soldiers died? Oh, that's right, none. So don't even try to turn them into the victims. Are you really this ignorant? Do you even know what an automatic weapon is? Thanks for the ignorant comment. You must know everything about everything, huh, smart guy? Either way, it was at close range. The American was unarmed. There were no guns on board. Excessive force comes to mind. I did think the parody was funny. What did those people think would happen? Israel (and Egypt BTW) is inspecting all cargo. They were not going to just let the ships make a delivery that possibly contained weapons that would be used against Israel. Of course it was going to end poorly. That was the point...a set-up. As far as an American on board...so what? If he was dumb enough to put himself in that type of situation....well, one less idiot around. This very same sentiment was shared by some as****e, despicable muslims on 9/11. Apathy does no one any good. If true, where is your evidence that the shots to the head were fired by an Israeli? Your own story doesn't even conclude that those were the shots that killed him. THERE WERE NO GUNS FOUND ON BOARD!!!!!! Of course they did. This was a planned provocation from the beginning. The thing is, I think the rest of the world is (slowly) starting to see that, too. Actually, you're wrong. Most of the world can actually see what's really going on in the world. I can't blame most Americans for their opinions on anything Middle East related. The middle easterners that practice in terrorism made apathy for the muslim world real easy to achieve and the American Media is all to glad to show every single thing, but there are two sides to every story. But, but.....I thought it was a supply ship....you know, filled with hundreds of armed people and almost no supplies. There were plenty of supplies on that ship. I cant expect you to know that by watching two seconds of coverage by our media. We all know how important reality TV is, you know? That, and the oil spill dominate the news. You haven't seen what I've seen.
bills_fan Posted June 10, 2010 Author Posted June 10, 2010 This very same sentiment was shared by some as****e, despicable muslims on 9/11. Apathy does no one any good. I do not see the comparison. The people on the boats put themselves in harms way unnecessarily and for no reason other than to provoke an international incident. The supplies, if that is what was on the ships , could have been unloaded, inspected and delivered. Mocking people who have deliberatly put themselves in harms way to create an international incident is not apathy for the whole middle east, just the idiots on the boats. There were no innocents on those boats.
Justice Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 I do not see the comparison. The people on the boats put themselves in harms way unnecessarily and for no reason other than to provoke an international incident. The supplies, if that is what was on the ships , could have been unloaded, inspected and delivered. Mocking people who have deliberatly put themselves in harms way to create an international incident is not apathy for the whole middle east, just the idiots on the boats. There were no innocents on those boats. Why are they not innocent? Because you say so? They were innocent, IMO, because they didn't have deadly weapons. I saw some sticks and sling shots and that's about it. The comparison here is innocent lives were lost. Plain and simple. They didn't deserve to die just for "provoking" the Israelis, as you so put it. Death isn't the punishment for provocation. Some people don't even get the death sentence when they murder people in cold blood! Why didn't the Israelis drop tear gas first? No one was wearing gas masks, that could have subdued the crowd sufficiently. They just had to spill blood. That's how these guys operate. Besides, these weren't terrorists and I'm sure they weren't on a suicide mission. If they were, what does that tell you about the urgency of the situation in Gaza that average people will give their lives in order to send aid to people in need? Yeah, they probably did try to incite the Israelis, and the Israelis were more than happy to oblige.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Besides, these weren't terrorists and I'm sure they weren't on a suicide mission. If they were, what does that tell you about the urgency of the situation in Gaza that average people will give their lives in order to send aid to people in need? Sorry, not buying this argument. There's nothing more glorious and more assuring of a one-way ticket to paradise for a Muslim than martyrdom. There was NO selfless sacrifice here. "I want to be a Shahid." Oh dear, there goes another argument that Hamas-lovers can use. Anything else you'd care for me to refute?
Magox Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Ok, can we not get along, everyone We Con the world We Con the children We Con the ones who make a brighter day So let's start giving
Justice Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Sorry, not buying this argument. There's nothing more glorious and more assuring of a one-way ticket to paradise for a Muslim than martyrdom. There was NO selfless sacrifice here. "I want to be a Shahid." Oh dear, there goes another argument that Hamas-lovers can use. Anything else you'd care for me to refute? News flash, dude, they weren't all muslims. And no, I ain't no damn Hamas, Fatah, Jihadist, Al Qaeda, or any other label you want to put on my @**! I'm just a regular dude with no affiliations other than my loyalties to God. (In the non-extreme, non- crazy, non- loony kind of way!) Besides, you have NO clue about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict! None! Not one iota! Zilch! Nada! Nothing! You have to live the experience to know it.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 News flash, dude, they weren't all muslims. You don't say. And no, I ain't no damn Hamas, Fatah, Jihadist, Al Qaeda, or any other label you want to put on my @**! I'm just a regular dude with no affiliations other than my loyalties to God. (In the non-extreme, non- crazy, non- loony kind of way!) You may not be, but there's a good number of NON-palestinians who are that buy into that bull **** line of reasoning, not to mention UN diplomats, etc... Besides, you have NO clue about the Palestinian-Israeli conflict! None! Not one iota! Zilch! Nada! Nothing! You have to live the experience to know it. You're right. I haven't lived it. But I AM capable of critical thought. I can read accounts from both sides. I can study the historical record and I can form a judgement based upon that information as well as personal experiences living among Arabs and seeing how they act. The historical record is clear: 1) Israel has a right to exist based upon UN mandate. 2) The Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 and 1973 and have instigated violence in the first and second Intifada. 3) Yassir Arafat turned down 90% of the West Bank when offered it. 4) Israel withdrew from Gaza and removed all settlers by force. Hamas repaid this gesture with rocket fire because it doesn't just want Gaza. It wants to annihilate Israel. 5) Israel responded with a blockade rooted in international law designed to stop the flow of rockets into Gaza. 6) These clowns tried to run the blockade and resisted boarding with sticks, slings, knives and stolen pistols. 7) These same clowns (most of whom WERE Muslims) were shot. No sympathy from me. If you're that stupid, that is your problem. Oh, and another historical FACT is that if the Arab states (especially Jordan, Syria and Egypt ) gave a DAMN about the plight of the Palestinian Arabs and of their fellow Muslims, they would have integrated them into their societies rather than leting them languish in camps. But, alas, they didn't.
DrFishfinder Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 QUOTE (DrFishfinder @ Jun 10 2010, 01:02 PM) Of course they did. This was a planned provocation from the beginning. The thing is, I think the rest of the world is (slowly) starting to see that, too. Actually, you're wrong. Most of the world can actually see what's really going on in the world. I can't blame most Americans for their opinions on anything Middle East related. The middle easterners that practice in terrorism made apathy for the muslim world real easy to achieve and the American Media is all to glad to show every single thing, but there are two sides to every story. You are entitled to your opinion. However, the blockade is supported by international law. Israel is protecting, and has every right to protect itself against Hamas, who has fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into that country and who does not even recognize the right of Israel to exist. Not even to EXIST. There are 3 sides to every story.
DrFishfinder Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Why are they not innocent? Because you say so? They were innocent, IMO, because they didn't have deadly weapons. I saw some sticks and sling shots and that's about it. The comparison here is innocent lives were lost. Plain and simple. They didn't deserve to die just for "provoking" the Israelis, as you so put it. Death isn't the punishment for provocation. Some people don't even get the death sentence when they murder people in cold blood! Why didn't the Israelis drop tear gas first? No one was wearing gas masks, that could have subdued the crowd sufficiently. They just had to spill blood. That's how these guys operate. Besides, these weren't terrorists and I'm sure they weren't on a suicide mission. If they were, what does that tell you about the urgency of the situation in Gaza that average people will give their lives in order to send aid to people in need? Yeah, they probably did try to incite the Israelis, and the Israelis were more than happy to oblige. You are correct in that the provokers didn't deserve to die for the provocation. The Israeli soldiers were attacked with deadly force and they defended themselves. That didn't happen on the other ships. If the Israeli soldiers were so intent on inflicting harm, why didn't they do it on the other ships as well? Why just one? You have no idea whether any of the provokers was intent on martyrdom. The terrorists use martyrdom as an extremely effective tool to be able to attack their targets world wide. There are suicide bombings involving martyrs every single day. The people of Gaza are getting thousands of tons of aid every single day and Israel has every right to inspect the "aid" that comes in to ensure that it does not contain materials that have been, are now, and will continue to be used by Hamas to attack Israel.
bills_fan Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Why are they not innocent? Because you say so? They were innocent, IMO, because they didn't have deadly weapons. I saw some sticks and sling shots and that's about it. The comparison here is innocent lives were lost. Plain and simple. They didn't deserve to die just for "provoking" the Israelis, as you so put it. Death isn't the punishment for provocation. Some people don't even get the death sentence when they murder people in cold blood! Why didn't the Israelis drop tear gas first? No one was wearing gas masks, that could have subdued the crowd sufficiently. They just had to spill blood. That's how these guys operate. Besides, these weren't terrorists and I'm sure they weren't on a suicide mission. If they were, what does that tell you about the urgency of the situation in Gaza that average people will give their lives in order to send aid to people in need? Yeah, they probably did try to incite the Israelis, and the Israelis were more than happy to oblige. They certainly had knives, that was in the photos. And the Israelis initially boarded the ships with paintball guns. They did not expect to encounter such resistance. When the soldiers lives were put in danger, the Israelis responded in kind. I have no problem with the Israeli response and you should not either. Were the Israelis expected to just sit there and be beaten and stabbed to death?
Justice Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 You don't say. You may not be, but there's a good number of NON-palestinians who are that buy into that bull **** line of reasoning, not to mention UN diplomats, etc... You're right. I haven't lived it. But I AM capable of critical thought. I can read accounts from both sides. I can study the historical record and I can form a judgement based upon that information as well as personal experiences living among Arabs and seeing how they act. Well then you should know that Hamas was started and funded with the help of Israel. Let's face it, the Israelis benefit from terrorism. It allows them the liberty to get away with anything and I mean anything. The Flotilla Massacre was nothing compared to the travesties the Israelis commit on a daily basis, such as collective punishment. The historical record is clear: 1) Israel has a right to exist based upon UN mandate. True, but so do the Palestinians, according to the UN. 2) The Arabs attacked Israel in 1948 and 1973 and have instigated violence in the first and second Intifada. True, but the Intifada was a response to the harsh and non-civil treatment of the Palestinian people. The first intifada was relatively peaceful. Rocks were the Palestinians' only weapons and the Intifada was very productive for the Palestinians because of what you wrote directly below. 3) Yassir Arafat turned down 90% of the West Bank when offered it. That was a bone-headed move, to say the least. 4) Israel withdrew from Gaza and removed all settlers by force. Hamas repaid this gesture with rocket fire because it doesn't just want Gaza. It wants to annihilate Israel. Can't argue here, but the people of Gaza don't exactly have complete control of that land. ie the blockade. 5) Israel responded with a blockade rooted in international law designed to stop the flow of rockets into Gaza. True. 6) These clowns tried to run the blockade and resisted boarding with sticks, slings, knives and stolen pistols. Where did you get this stolen pistol crap from? No Israeli was shot. Do you suggest that these guys had horrible aim? 7) These same clowns (most of whom WERE Muslims) were shot. No sympathy from me. If you're that stupid, that is your problem. Dying for stupidity. Beautiful. Oh, and another historical FACT is that if the Arab states (especially Jordan, Syria and Egypt ) gave a DAMN about the plight of the Palestinian Arabs and of their fellow Muslims, they would have integrated them into their societies rather than leting them languish in camps. But, alas, they didn't. Can't argue here either. Arabs don't get along with each other very well. Neither does the rest of the world. No one gets along. We Americans are hated all over the world, as well. You are entitled to your opinion. However, the blockade is supported by international law. Israel is protecting, and has every right to protect itself against Hamas, who has fired thousands of rockets indiscriminately into that country and who does not even recognize the right of Israel to exist. Not even to EXIST. There are 3 sides to every story. Israel is one of the most major violators of International Law. They have nukes, don't they? Well. they're not supposed to, but since it's Israel, we'll just let that slide even though they aren't a part of the non-plorifiation treaty. You are correct in that the provokers didn't deserve to die for the provocation. The Israeli soldiers were attacked with deadly force and they defended themselves. That didn't happen on the other ships. If the Israeli soldiers were so intent on inflicting harm, why didn't they do it on the other ships as well? Why just one? You have no idea whether any of the provokers was intent on martyrdom. The terrorists use martyrdom as an extremely effective tool to be able to attack their targets world wide. There are suicide bombings involving martyrs every single day. I don't condone terrorism, but there is a famous saying by Patrick Henry, "give me liberty or give me death". The people of Gaza are getting thousands of tons of aid every single day and Israel has every right to inspect the "aid" that comes in to ensure that it does not contain materials that have been, are now, and will continue to be used by Hamas to attack Israel. They aren't getting enough aid. Gaza is a disaster zone, thanks in large part to the Israelis that has destroyed whatever punitive infrastructure was there in the first place. They certainly had knives, that was in the photos. And the Israelis initially boarded the ships with paintball guns. They did not expect to encounter such resistance. When the soldiers lives were put in danger, the Israelis responded in kind. I have no problem with the Israeli response and you should not either. Were the Israelis expected to just sit there and be beaten and stabbed to death? Paintball guns???? Where do you guys get your news?? I'm not saying it's not true, but damn that sounds ridiculous. As far as just "sitting there and being beaten to death", don't worry about that. the Israelis have taken many more lives over the years then the Palestinians have, and it's not even close. Not even a little bit.
bills_fan Posted June 11, 2010 Author Posted June 11, 2010 Paintball guns???? Where do you guys get your news?? I'm not saying it's not true, but damn that sounds ridiculous. As far as just "sitting there and being beaten to death", don't worry about that. the Israelis have taken many more lives over the years then the Palestinians have, and it's not even close. Not even a little bit. Here is the link that reported the paintball guns. It also reported that the people on the ships had gas masks. http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/01/2915586.htm I do not disupte that the Israelis have taken more life than the Palestinians, but with respect to this incident, it seems the Israelis did not want to kill anyone.
Doc Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 The question I want to know is, why didn't they allow the cargo to be inspected? The Israelis were willing to remove it and put it back themselves. That there were no weapons looks bad for Israel, but again the ship should have allowed to inspect it. And with tensions high like that, it was like prodding the sleeping bear and then complaining about getting mauled to death.
DC Tom Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 The question I want to know is, why didn't they allow the cargo to be inspected? The Israelis were willing to remove it and put it back themselves. That there were no weapons looks bad for Israel, but again the ship should have allowed to inspect it. And with tensions high like that, it was like prodding the sleeping bear and then complaining about getting mauled to death. Because it wasn't about aid to Gaza. It was about forcing a confontration with Israel in hopes of swaying international opinion to force Israel to lift the blockade. Basically, they (the people delivering the "aid") want to fight a war while pretending they're not. Very effective strategy, actually. And it's downright ridiculous that people think they were "innocent victims".
DrFishfinder Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Can't argue here either. Arabs don't get along with each other very well. Neither does the rest of the world. No one gets along. We Americans are hated all over the world, as well.As I'm sure you are aware, Arabic/Muslim nations have been fighting each other, killing each other and taking each other's land for centuries. Not to mention treating their own citizens like farm animals. Nothing like stirring up a collective hatred for Israel to take the citizen's minds off of what an oppressive hell hole they live in. That's okay. Ironically enough, the free flow of information that those citizens are starting to have access to, is slowly but surely opening their eyes and minds to the world outside. It's not a perfect world, but neither is it the world they have been indoctrinated to believe in. And Americans are most certainly NOT hated all over the world. That is an unsupportable and ignorant statement. Israel is one of the most major violators of International Law. They have nukes, don't they? Well. they're not supposed to, but since it's Israel, we'll just let that slide even though they aren't a part of the non-plorifiation treaty. Exactly what international law is Israel violating? Israel looks like a book of matches on a football field in comparison to the Muslim countries they are surrounded by. Not to mention the controlling party of their next door neighbor who doesn't even recognize their right to exist. Not to mention Amadinejad, who has, as President of Iran, publicly called for Israel's complete eradication. I don't know about you my friend, but I would rather see Israel possess nukes "illegally" than Iran possess nukes "legally." I am going to resist pointing out what you did to "non-proliferation." Ooops. They aren't getting enough aid. Gaza is a disaster zone, thanks in large part to the Israelis that has destroyed whatever punitive infrastructure was there in the first place. Israel gave the Palestinians Gaza in working order. Pulled out and gave it to them. And in return, Hamas has used Gaza to launch thousands of rockets into Israel. Absolute textbook perfect practice for terrorist organizations to launch attacks from civilian, business and utility locations that they fully expect to be hit in retaliation. Then when they are, they can easily whip the media into a frenzy by showing the damage to homes and buildings. They don't show the terrorists setting up rocket launchers by homes and buildings. They don't show civilians terrified that THEIR homes and businesses are now the target for retaliation. They don't air the interviews with Gazan residents who support Abbas, and who watch as their Hamas supporting neighbors get supplies and goods, while they get nothing. No. Gaza is a disaster zone because that is exactly the way Hamas wants it.
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Israel is one of the most major violators of International Law. They have nukes, don't they? Well. they're not supposed to, but since it's Israel, we'll just let that slide even though they aren't a part of the non-plorifiation treaty. They're not supposed to? They haven't signed on to the NPT for the express purpose of being ABLE to have nuclear weapons. This in stark contrast to Iran which *IS* a signor of the NPT, but is flaunting that treaty while the whole world just says "tsk."
Justice Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 They're not supposed to? They haven't signed on to the NPT for the express purpose of being ABLE to have nuclear weapons. This in stark contrast to Iran which *IS* a signor of the NPT, but is flaunting that treaty while the whole world just says "tsk." Oh, okay, that makes it all right then.
Doc Posted June 11, 2010 Posted June 11, 2010 Because it wasn't about aid to Gaza. It was about forcing a confontration with Israel in hopes of swaying international opinion to force Israel to lift the blockade. Basically, they (the people delivering the "aid") want to fight a war while pretending they're not. Very effective strategy, actually. And it's downright ridiculous that people think they were "innocent victims". Sorry DC Tom. It was a rhetorical question directed at those who think that they didn't bring this upon themselves.
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