thewildrabbit Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 It sounds like you're feeling extraordinarily frustrated with this Bills team and the direction it's taken over the last ten+ years. Quite frankly, I can't say I blame you. On the contrary. The problem is that while other teams were moving forward and making progress over the last ten years--building themselves up--the Bills were achieving little. Peyton Manning was taken first overall in the 1998 draft. I mention him because I want to draw attention to the fact that other teams have spent the last ten+ years acquiring long-term building blocks, and keeping them. Obviously, the Bills have no players from the 1990s. In fact, let's look at the first round picks from 2000 to the present to see how many are still helping the team. 2000: Erik Flowers. Result: bust. 2001: Nate Clements. Result: first contract and out. 2002: Mike Williams. Result: bust. 2002b: traded for Drew Bledsoe. Result: released after three years. 2003: Willis McGahee. Result: traded for two third round picks. (Those picks became Marcus Stroud and Trent Edwards.) 2004a: Lee Evans. Result: a solid starter. 2004b: J.P. Losman. Result: UFL Championship 2005: none 2006a: Donte Whitner. Result: a player roughly equal to George Wilson 2006b: John McCargo. Result: unsuccessfully attempted to trade him for a fifth round pick 2007: Marshawn Lynch. Result: discontented player worth no more than a third round pick in a trade 2008: Leodis McKelvin. Result: a reasonably good young player who looks to play nickel back this year 2009a: Aaron Maybin. Result: produced nothing his rookie year, but may be more successful as an OLB 2009b: Eric Wood. Result: a solid interior OL who's coming back from a gruesome injury Other than Lee Evans and Eric Wood, there's no one on this list where you could say, "The Bills are counting on this guy to be a solid starter at his position." If you consistently fail to build your team through the draft, and specifically through the first round, then you're going to fall behind the teams that have succeeded in that task. Catching up to those teams is not the work of a single year. Obviously the team was very poorly run under Jauron. Key positions such as quarterback and offensive line were neglected, resources were showered on positions like DB and RB, and there were some real reaches in the draft. Players in the latter category included Whitner (obviously), McCargo, and Lynch. With the exception of McCargo, none of those guys played a position the Bills should have been trying to address in the first round to begin with. That depends on whether you're just throwing something together for one year, or if you're trying to build a team that will last for a while. If you look at last year's team, only two players out of the front-7 represented good long-term answers at their respective positions: Poz and Kyle Williams. So that's five holes right there! Add to that the holes at QB, LT, RT, C, etc., and that's a lot of holes! Not only that, but there are very few difference-makers or game-changers on this team. You need a few of those if you want to be really good. I was not happy about the idea of addressing the RB position with our first round pick. But if Spiller was a significantly better football player than anyone else on the board when we picked, then I could see some sense in taking him. I just hope that next year, the best available player is at a position we really need. All those years of bad drafts are the result of RW firing Bill Polian and then firing John Butler when he wouldn't resign, and Butler took AJ Smith with him when he left for SD. Then RW not finding the people competent enough to replace them... as he didn't want to pay Butler top dollars and he refuses to spend what he needs to, to hire top quality people. Bill Polian is the president of the Colts, who is president of the Buffalo Bills, need I say more about this? To the bolded part I say, BS... The idea that you need to rebuild for years is long gone, only losers like jauron take that much time and never seem to get it done. Look at the Atlanta Falcons and Miami Dolphins for examples, Like I stated eariler Bill Parcels took over a 1-15 Miami team, and looked over exactly what they needed and went about upgrading positions. The Dolphin fans were at first very unhappy that they didn't draft QB Matt Ryan #1 overall and took Jake Long LT instead. They drafted a DE #2 and a QB 3rd. Then he went in free agency and obtained vet QB Chad Pennington and he led them to the playoffs that very same year with that scrub washed up noodle armed QB that nobody else wanted. The Falcons were 4-12 under Bobby Petrino / Emmitt Thomas. they hire a new GM from the Patriots who hires Mike Smith and the very next year they are 11-5. by drafting exactly what they needed and obtaining the rest in free agency. So all this BS about rebuilding is exactly what it is, pure BS with more BS sprinkled in. Chan Gailey went to a 4-12 team to fix the offense and they went 2-14 instead and the HC gets fired. Then Gailey gets fired the next year just before the season starts because the newly hired rookie head coach didn't trust him to run his offense. The Bills hired another loser GM & HC and the fans are so desperate for a winner they are drinking the kool-aid like they are in a desert dying of thirst... only this kool-aid is from Jonestown. (ok that last part was perhaps a tad over the top) I give it to week 5 and then most of you will see what I already know.
mpl6876 Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 BS...The idea that you need to rebuild for years is long gone, only losers like jauron take that much time and never seem to get it done. Look at the Atlanta Falcons and Miami Dolphins for examples, Like I stated eariler Bill Parcels took over a 1-15 Miami team, and looked over exactly what they needed and went about upgrading positions. The Dolphin fans were at first very unhappy that they didn't draft QB Matt Ryan #1 overall and took Jake Long LT instead. They drafted a DE #2 and a QB 3rd. Then he went in free agency and obtained vet QB Chad Pennington and he led them to the playoffs that very same year with that scrub washed up noodle armed QB that nobody else wanted. The Falcons were 4-12 under Bobby Petrino / Emmitt Thomas. they hire a new GM from the Patriots who hires Mike Smith and the very next year they are 11-5. by drafting exactly what they needed and obtaining the rest in free agency. So all this BS about rebuilding is exactly what it is, pure BS with more BS sprinkled in. Chan Gailey went to a 4-12 team to fix the offense and they went 2-14 instead and the HC gets fired. Then Gailey gets fired the next year just before the season starts because the newly hired rookie head coach didn't trust him to run his offense. The Bills hired another loser GM & HC and the fans are so desperate for a winner they are drinking the kool-aid like they are in a desert dying of thirst... only this kool-aid is from Jonestown. Rabbit that was a great post. I agree with "The Bills hired another loser GM & HC and the fans are so desperate for a winner they are drinking the kool-aid like they are in a desert dying of thirst... only this kool-aid is from Jonestown." I couldn't have said it any better.
eball Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Let's talk serious, OK? I never thought Losman was a good quarterback, but to think that he wasn't hindered by Jauron would render me naive. In 06, the OL was a crying shame. Losman was young and in need of help so Levy/Jauron ran out and drafted Whitner, Youboty and Ko Simpson with early picks. Then, they installed a dumb offensive system (not to say that a good one would have worked with no blocking). Last season, the Bills traded away a very good Left Tackle and replaced him with a rookie Left Guard. Again, here was a young qb needing help. Really, do you think that Jauron did anything to build a powerful, balanced offense in 4 years? This is not to say that Edwards is great, or even good. What it does say is that any quarterback would suffer due to the idiocy of Levy/Jauron, and I exclude not one qb in the NFL. If anybody thinks that Petyon Manning would have been half as effective on this team, sorry but imo you are crazy. Spot on, Bill. We may not often agree, but these words could have come straight out of my mouth.
eball Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 The idea that you need to rebuild for years is long gone, only losers like jauron take that much time and never seem to get it done. <snip> So all this BS about rebuilding is exactly what it is, pure BS with more BS sprinkled in. Chan Gailey went to a 4-12 team to fix the offense and they went 2-14 instead and the HC gets fired. Then Gailey gets fired the next year just before the season starts because the newly hired rookie head coach didn't trust him to run his offense. The Bills hired another loser GM & HC and the fans are so desperate for a winner they are drinking the kool-aid like they are in a desert dying of thirst... only this kool-aid is from Jonestown. (ok that last part was perhaps a tad over the top) I give it to week 5 and then most of you will see what I already know. You're obviously agitated over all of this, so my first bit of advice would be to calm down. Second, it is a fact that Gailey has improved offenses, both statistically and in points scored, everywhere he has gone in the NFL. It sounds to me as though his firing in KC was more a power move by a paranoid HC than an indictment of Gailey's abilities. Show me one quote from Gailey that gives you the impression he looks at this year as a "rebuilding" season. Just one verified quote is all I ask. Gailey has won as a HC, and Nix has never been a GM but has a track record of acquiring talent (the main purpose of a GM). Your post is most definitely "over the top" and I look forward to reading what you're writing "after week 5."
Mickey Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 let's hope so and that the problem is corrected now. If edwards does good things this season, we might actually have a team. To the extent the line was pathetic, nothing has changed. Bell, Levitre and Wood have more experience but two of those guys are recovering from serious injuries and besides, I can't imagine that a year in that offense under Jauron is worth all that much experience-wise. The head coach and the offense have changed and we have a new threat in CJ. We will have to hang our offensive hats on that for now. The line will take time to overhaul. Butler's retirement was a real blow there.
mpl6876 Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 You're obviously agitated over all of this, so my first bit of advice would be to calm down. Second, it is a fact that Gailey has improved offenses, both statistically and in points scored, everywhere he has gone in the NFL. It sounds to me as though his firing in KC was more a power move by a paranoid HC than an indictment of Gailey's abilities. Show me one quote from Gailey that gives you the impression he looks at this year as a "rebuilding" season. Just one verified quote is all I ask. Gailey has won as a HC, and Nix has never been a GM but has a track record of acquiring talent (the main purpose of a GM). Your post is most definitely "over the top" and I look forward to reading what you're writing "after week 5." Gailey has improved offenses but I think he will struggle to improve this offense enough to get wins. This offense just has too many holes for any coach to put up wins on a consistent basis. If we still loose the game, I could care less about scoring more points and have more rushing/passing yards, etc... I want to WIN. I actually feel sorry for the team Gailey has inherited. He is most likely to be another "fall guy." Also, Gailey has won as a head coach in Dallas. I could have coached that team to the playoffs. So to say he has won is kind of "taking things out of content." Second point, if he is such a great NFL coach why didn't any other team hire him prior to the Bills? Makes me wonder...Thirdly, his winning record as a head coach at GT was marginal at best. I have a friend who follows GT and he didn't have lots of kinds thing s to say about coach Galiey. You stated NIX has never been a GM. To early to tell what kinda GM he is going to be. But you make a "giant leap" implying he is going to be a good GM based on his prior track record of acquiring talent. (even that is debatable) No head coach in their right mind is going to say "this year is a rebuilding year." They would be telling thier fan base and players this year is a losing year. So your right about Gailey not saying that. Lastly, come see me after week five. My prediction is Bills 1-4. What is your prediction? Overall, 4-12.
Guest dog14787 Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 Gailey has improved offenses but I think he will struggle to improve this offense enough to get wins. This offense just has too many holes for any coach to put up wins on a consistent basis. If we still loose the game, I could care less about scoring more points and have more rushing/passing yards, etc... I want to WIN. I actually feel sorry for the team Gailey has inherited. He is most likely to be another "fall guy." Also, Gailey has won as a head coach in Dallas. I could have coached that team to the playoffs. So to say he has won is kind of "taking things out of content." Second point, if he is such a great NFL coach why didn't any other team hire him prior to the Bills? Makes me wonder...Thirdly, his winning record as a head coach at GT was marginal at best. I have a friend who follows GT and he didn't have lots of kinds thing s to say about coach Galiey. You stated NIX has never been a GM. To early to tell what kinda GM he is going to be. But you make a "giant leap" implying he is going to be a good GM based on his prior track record of acquiring talent. (even that is debatable) No head coach in their right mind is going to say "this year is a rebuilding year." They would be telling thier fan base and players this year is a losing year. So your right about Gailey not saying that. Lastly, come see me after week five. My prediction is Bills 1-4. What is your prediction? Overall, 4-12. My prediction 3-2 after 5 and 9-7 or better to finish the season out. As you fellas probably already know I'm generally very optimistic when it comes to the Buffalo Bills.
Adam Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 I think the general idea is that Chan can do what Juaron couldnt, and thats make things work with what is there. He put up rather impressive numbers with a 3rd string qb in KC, so the idea is he can create an offense that can make up for what it is lacking personel wise. No it isn't- Chan will take his lumps for the first few years and if the front office replaces scrubs like Parrish with actual football players, we may start to see results in 2-3 years. Hopefully this time, they ignore the fans and keep the coach though.
Orton's Arm Posted June 9, 2010 Posted June 9, 2010 To the bolded part I say, BS... The idea that you need to rebuild for years is long gone, only losers like jauron take that much time and never seem to get it done. Look at the Atlanta Falcons and Miami Dolphins for examples, Like I stated eariler Bill Parcels took over a 1-15 Miami team, and looked over exactly what they needed and went about upgrading positions. The Dolphin fans were at first very unhappy that they didn't draft QB Matt Ryan #1 overall and took Jake Long LT instead. They drafted a DE #2 and a QB 3rd. Then he went in free agency and obtained vet QB Chad Pennington and he led them to the playoffs that very same year with that scrub washed up noodle armed QB that nobody else wanted. There's truth to this. But a lot of what Parcells did that first year was achieved with cardboard and duct tape. Take that "noodle-armed QB" you mentioned. Pennington played very well for the Dolphins for a while, largely as a result of the upgraded OL Parcells had assembled for him. But the reason no one wanted him was because he was too old. Eventually Pennington got hurt/replaced, and retired (I think). Henne played well for a first-year starter, but not as well as Pennington played. But the duct tape and cardboard nature of what Parcells had thrown together that first year was exposed even before Pennington was replaced. It was exposed in the Dolphins' playoff game, when they were conclusively eliminated. It was exposed again in the second year of Parcells' rebuilding project, when the Dolphins took a step backwards from the record they had achieved that first year. (Despite Parcells having had the chance to infuse the team with another year's worth of draft picks and free agent signings.) Going into the 2010 season, it appears that the Dolphins are the third-strongest team in the AFC East. In light of all this, the Dolphins' division championship a few years back seems reminiscent of Jauron's 12-4 season in Chicago. In both cases, a team achieved a better record than you'd expect, based on winning just about every close game in which it played, having lucky breaks go its way, etc. Had the Dolphins chosen Matt Ryan first overall, it would have slowed their rebuilding process. The combination of Chad Pennington at QB and Long at LT gave them much more in the way of short-term benefits than Ryan would have. But over the long run, having Ryan at QB would have given the team a much higher ceiling than it currently has with Henne taking the snaps. The Falcons were 4-12 under Bobby Petrino / Emmitt Thomas. they hire a new GM from the Patriots who hires Mike Smith and the very next year they are 11-5. by drafting exactly what they needed and obtaining the rest in free agency. It's true the Falcons went 4-12 in 2007 and 11-5 in 2008. But part of the reason for the lousy record in 2007 was Vick's suspension, and his replacement with Joey Harrington as their starting QB. It was a train wreck of a season. The Falcons went 7-9 in 2006, which was the last year they had Vick (as opposed to Harrington) at starting QB. In 2009, the Falcons went 9-7; which would seem to indicate that not all that much progress has been made since 2006. The 11-5 record from 2008 was probably due at least in part to a few lucky breaks or short-term measures. I give them credit for solidifying the QB position with Matt Ryan, as well as filling some other holes. Another good example of a quick rebuilding effort is the 2006 Bills' season. This was Levy's first season as GM, and Jauron's first here as Bills' head coach. They achieved a 7-9 record, which was considered not bad for a first year rebuilding effort. But to do that they cut a lot of corners. They felt that to be respectable, Jauron's Tampa-2 defense had to have an infusion of talent at DT, and had to have a particular kind of player at SS. So they blew the 8th overall pick on Whitner, squandered a late first-round pick on John McCargo, and slapped the franchise label on Clements for a year. The second year's rebuilding project was equally short-sighted: their first pick was wasted on a RB, perhaps largely because RBs are associated with an immediate impact. As a fan, I don't want to see rebuilding efforts like this. I would rather my team go 1-15 and 1-15 for its first two years of rebuilding as opposed to doing that. They should grin and bear those losses, while using their draft position to acquire the kind of talent you can't get later in the first round. Peyton Manning, Bruce Smith, Orlando Pace, and other similar players were each taken first overall. The Bills hired another loser GM & HC and the fans are so desperate for a winner they are drinking the kool-aid like they are in a desert dying of thirst... only this kool-aid is from Jonestown. San Diego had a solid track record of talent acquisition. I will tend to believe that Nix was a big part of that, until he proves me otherwise. As for Gailey--I saw an article which compared the offenses Gailey had coached with how those offenses did the year before he arrived and the year after he left. His tenure at those teams was almost always associated with significantly better offensive production (in both yards and points per game) than his predecessors or successors had achieved. As someone else has pointed out, he achieved those offensive successes with the likes of Kordell Stewart and Tyler Thigpen throwing the ball. While there's a good chance our front office and coaching staff will be successful over the long-term, I obviously can't promise you they will be. As for short-term success--I honestly hope the Bills don't find it. We need a franchise QB a lot more than we need a "quick start" to our rebuilding process. 1-15 gives us a better chance at truly solving the QB problem than 9-7 does.
thewildrabbit Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 You're obviously agitated over all of this, so my first bit of advice would be to calm down. I'm not really agitated at all, simply frustrated at all the Jim Jones followers defending the move to hire Gailey when he all he has proven to me is that he admired CJ Spiller while at GT, he got his "water bug" I honestly don't mind this pick in the first round, its ignoring the O line until the 5th round that gets me. Second, it is a fact that Gailey has improved offenses, both statistically and in points scored, everywhere he has gone in the NFL. It sounds to me as though his firing in KC was more a power move by a paranoid HC than an indictment of Gailey's abilities. Show me one quote from Gailey that gives you the impression he looks at this year as a "rebuilding" season. Just one verified quote is all I ask. Gailey has won as a HC, and Nix has never been a GM but has a track record of acquiring talent (the main purpose of a GM). Your post is most definitely "over the top" and I look forward to reading what you're writing "after week 5." Hey! I hope the man proves me wrong and I'll state so "IF" that happens! In all reality, lets look at the history of this team and the recent draft tells me different I think the main thing that bothers me about this new regime is the way they are going about some of the positions. They stated something to the effect that they want to see what they have on their roster after Chan gailey has a chance to coach them up, perfectly understandable to a point. The problem is they have several O linemen coming off injuries and have them slotted to start and yet have no idea if they will even return to their previous form, which wasn't very good in Bells case. The lack of depth at LT is just sad and a really bad way to enter a season in which your trying to find out if your 3 QB's have the ability to properly compete. How can any of them properly compete when they are hamstrung by an inadequate O line?
thewildrabbit Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 There's truth to this. But a lot of what Parcells did that first year was achieved with cardboard and duct tape. Take that "noodle-armed QB" you mentioned. Pennington played very well for the Dolphins for a while, largely as a result of the upgraded OL Parcells had assembled for him. But the reason no one wanted him was because he was too old. Eventually Pennington got hurt/replaced, and retired (I think). Henne played well for a first-year starter, but not as well as Pennington played. But the duct tape and cardboard nature of what Parcells had thrown together that first year was exposed even before Pennington was replaced. It was exposed in the Dolphins' playoff game, when they were conclusively eliminated. It was exposed again in the second year of Parcells' rebuilding project, when the Dolphins took a step backwards from the record they had achieved that first year. (Despite Parcells having had the chance to infuse the team with another year's worth of draft picks and free agent signings.) Going into the 2010 season, it appears that the Dolphins are the third-strongest team in the AFC East. In light of all this, the Dolphins' division championship a few years back seems reminiscent of Jauron's 12-4 season in Chicago. In both cases, a team achieved a better record than you'd expect, based on winning just about every close game in which it played, having lucky breaks go its way, etc. The Bills need some of that cardboard and duct tape, because if Pennington doesn't get injured the Dolphins make the playoffs again. But then they wouldn't have seen how good Chad Henne is, he stepped up as the season went on and it looks like he will start this season at QB Had the Dolphins chosen Matt Ryan first overall, it would have slowed their rebuilding process. The combination of Chad Pennington at QB and Long at LT gave them much more in the way of short-term benefits than Ryan would have. But over the long run, having Ryan at QB would have given the team a much higher ceiling than it currently has with Henne taking the snaps. How are you so certain that Chad Henne won't become a better QB then Ryan? It's true the Falcons went 4-12 in 2007 and 11-5 in 2008. But part of the reason for the lousy record in 2007 was Vick's suspension, and his replacement with Joey Harrington as their starting QB. It was a train wreck of a season. The Falcons went 7-9 in 2006, which was the last year they had Vick (as opposed to Harrington) at starting QB. In 2009, the Falcons went 9-7; which would seem to indicate that not all that much progress has been made since 2006. The 11-5 record from 2008 was probably due at least in part to a few lucky breaks or short-term measures. I give them credit for solidifying the QB position with Matt Ryan, as well as filling some other holes. Another good example of a quick rebuilding effort is the 2006 Bills' season. This was Levy's first season as GM, and Jauron's first here as Bills' head coach. They achieved a 7-9 record, which was considered not bad for a first year rebuilding effort. But to do that they cut a lot of corners. They felt that to be respectable, Jauron's Tampa-2 defense had to have an infusion of talent at DT, and had to have a particular kind of player at SS. So they blew the 8th overall pick on Whitner, squandered a late first-round pick on John McCargo, and slapped the franchise label on Clements for a year. The second year's rebuilding project was equally short-sighted: their first pick was wasted on a RB, perhaps largely because RBs are associated with an immediate impact. Dickhead jauron tore apart everything Marv Levy did, also his biggest mistake was promoting from within the org with rookie OC & rookie O line coach rather then hiring experienced O line coach and offensive coordinator. Those moves screwed the offense, screwed protections, screwed the play calling and game planning. Basically screwing the entire team. As a fan, I don't want to see rebuilding efforts like this. I would rather my team go 1-15 and 1-15 for its first two years of rebuilding as opposed to doing that. They should grin and bear those losses, while using their draft position to acquire the kind of talent you can't get later in the first round. Peyton Manning, Bruce Smith, Orlando Pace, and other similar players were each taken first overall. As a fan I'm sick of hearing about rebuilding for ten years, The Falcons proved the team doesn't need to hit rock bottom to be able to draft and obtain free agents in one season and become competitive again. San Diego had a solid track record of talent acquisition. I will tend to believe that Nix was a big part of that, until he proves me otherwise. As for Gailey--I saw an article which compared the offenses Gailey had coached with how those offenses did the year before he arrived and the year after he left. His tenure at those teams was almost always associated with significantly better offensive production (in both yards and points per game) than his predecessors or successors had achieved. As someone else has pointed out, he achieved those offensive successes with the likes of Kordell Stewart and Tyler Thigpen throwing the ball. While there's a good chance our front office and coaching staff will be successful over the long-term, I obviously can't promise you they will be. As for short-term success--I honestly hope the Bills don't find it. We need a franchise QB a lot more than we need a "quick start" to our rebuilding process. 1-15 gives us a better chance at truly solving the QB problem than 9-7 does. The team needs a franchise LT before they bring in another QB, so the guy whomever he is has a decent chance to develop properly behind a decent O line and not running for his life every other play Take a long hard look at the Ravens and their offense and know that they beat the Patriots "IN" New England for a WC Playoff game with a dominate running attack and defense. The QB Flacco threw like 4 passes all game, all he did was hand the ball off to the RB's. The Bills by all rights should have had their eyes opened by that WC playoff game and model the team after the Ravens, while building the team in the exact same fashion. The Bills are not going to be effective with Bell or anyone else currently on the roster at LT. If the rest of the world can see and understand that, why can't Gailey and Nix?
mpl6876 Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 I think the main thing that bothers me about this new regime is the way they are going about some of the positions. They stated something to the effect that they want to see what they have on their roster after Chan gailey has a chance to coach them up, perfectly understandable to a point. The problem is they have several O linemen coming off injuries and have them slotted to start and yet have no idea if they will even return to their previous form, which wasn't very good in Bells case. The lack of depth at LT is just sad and a really bad way to enter a season in which your trying to find out if your 3 QB's have the ability to properly compete. How can any of them properly compete when they are hamstrung by an inadequate O line? Hard for me to get excited about this team when you have a combination of (at best) medicore OL, QB, and WR. Don't see how any coaching staff can produce many wins with that formula. That is my frustration.
Gabe Northern Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 From our friend, Tim Graham at ESPN. http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/i...dwards-believer "I think Trent was victimized by a lack of support and talent that was overestimated," Dilfer said. "The offensive line was pathetic. The offensive system was as poorly coached as any system in the NFL. "He's the exact opposite of what Mark Sanchez has had in terms of a structure in place." At the very least, Trent haters should better account of the OL and offensive system.
CardinalScotts Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Hard for me to get excited about this team when you have a combination of (at best) medicore OL, QB, and WR. Don't see how any coaching staff can produce many wins with that formula. That is my frustration. SO when they do produce wins you'll be on here loud and proud ?
mpl6876 Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 SO when they do produce wins you'll be on here loud and proud ? Glady, I will be the first one to eat crow if the Bills are a winning football games. Despite my negativity I would love nothing more than to see the Bills win. Time will tell.
Adam Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Aside for Okung, the top OT's weren't that good this year. It's good we waited and took Wang. I can't wait to see the Trent Williams pick blow up in Shanahan's face- maybe he will get McNabb injured too because he is a lazy piece of garbage. Our offensive line is the result of nearly 20 years of bad drafting, and despite what was said earlier, things don't turn around overnight. It took Miami about three years to rebuild that offensive line- Pennington and Long came in at the end of that. When Baltimore and St. Louis exploded onto the scene about a decade ago, it was after years of great drafting. Buckle up, Bills fans- you will wait and you will be patient!
Orton's Arm Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 The Bills need some of that cardboard and duct tape, because if Pennington doesn't get injured the Dolphins make the playoffs again. But then they wouldn't have seen how good Chad Henne is, he stepped up as the season went on and it looks like he will start this season at QB If they'd made the playoffs in that second year, they very probably would have been handily eliminated; just as they had been in the first year of their rebuilding effort. How are you so certain that Chad Henne won't become a better QB then Ryan? I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm certain that Ryan will have the better career. There's a chance Ryan could stop developing as a QB, or that Henne could unexpectedly improve his performance by dramatic leaps. But as of right now, the two QBs have the following career stats: ____________Henne__Ryan QB Rating:____75.2___84.3 yards/atmpt:__6.4____7.2 TD/Int ratio:___0.86___1.52 Based on those numbers and other factors, it is safe to say that Ryan is currently the better QB. I personally believe his future and his upside are significantly better than those of Henne. Dickhead jauron tore apart everything Marv Levy did, also his biggest mistake was promoting from within the org with rookie OC & rookie O line coach rather then hiring experienced O line coach and offensive coordinator. Those moves screwed the offense, screwed protections, screwed the play calling and game planning. Basically screwing the entire team. While I agree that Jauron's coaching and his choice of assistants were of questionable quality at best, I also believe Marv was a big part of the problem. He spent no first-day draft picks on OL; instead trying to fix the problem by signing the likes of Melvin Fowler, Tuten Reyes, Langston Walker, Derrick Dockery, etc. Melvin Folwer--Marv's solution to the problem at center--was barely drafted by the UFL. Dockery and Walker were decent, if overpaid, players. (Plus their bloated contracts drove up Peters' money demands.) Other than the acquisition of the recently-retired Brad Butler, Marv's efforts to address the offensive line were an abysmal failure. More generally, none of his free agent signings were successful. Add to that the fact that his only success story on the first day of the draft was Poz, and you're looking at a dismal track record as a GM. As a fan I'm sick of hearing about rebuilding for ten years, The Falcons proved the team doesn't need to hit rock bottom to be able to draft and obtain free agents in one season and become competitive again. I'd argue the example of the Falcons proves exactly the opposite. As I mentioned previously, they went 7-9 in 2006, with Vick at QB. Vick's severe limitations as a passer were exposed against better defenses. But against other teams, he could compensate for that with his tremendous athleticism and arm strength. He'd run around in the backfield to tempt the other team's secondary to get out of position; and then heave the ball to some WR that had thus been left open. Due in large part to the Vick suspension, the Falcons went 4-12 in 2007 with Joey Harrington taking the snaps. This was a team that had better than 4-12 talent, but that was being held back by the lack of a quarterback. Then they used the third overall pick to take Matt Ryan; which thereby turned a previous source of weakness into one of strength. Ryan proved to be a much better QB than either Harrington or Vick; and thereby gave the Falcons a huge upgrade at the game's most important position. Note here that after Ryan was off the board (3rd overall) there were no other quarterbacks of his caliber available in that draft. The team needs a franchise LT before they bring in another QB, so the guy whomever he is has a decent chance to develop properly behind a decent O line and not running for his life every other play I like that idea up to a point. On the other hand, opportunities to draft a true franchise QB are few and far between. If the next Peyton Manning or Drew Brees is there at your pick, you take him, period. Obviously once you have him, the first thing you should do is build up the offensive line for him. Take a long hard look at the Ravens and their offense and know that they beat the Patriots "IN" New England for a WC Playoff game with a dominate running attack and defense. The QB Flacco threw like 4 passes all game, all he did was hand the ball off to the RB's. They were only able to get away with that because the Patriots were vulnerable and ripe for the picking. "Run the ball and win with defense" will get you a good regular season record, and may even allow you to win a Wildcard playoff game. But as you advance in the playoffs, your opponents become tougher. There will be times when your running game gets shut down, or when your defense allows more points than it should. When those things happen, it really, really helps to have a franchise quarterback and a good passing game. Take the Steelers of the '70s for example. In their Super Bowl against the Los Angeles Rams, their running attack got shut down. And the Rams scored their share of points. Fortunately for the Steelers, Terry Bradshaw came up huge in that game, and they had Hall of Famer Lynn Swan at WR. Those guys allowed the Steelers to score the points they needed to win. The game of football has become considerably more passing-oriented since then. If you look at the dynasty teams--that is, teams where a core group of players made multiple Super Bowl appearances--each of them has had a QB that's played at a high level--typically at or near a Hall of Fame level. Consider the following: '70s Steelers: Terry Bradshaw played at a Hall of Fame level in the postseason, even though his regular season play was mediocre. '70s Vikings: Tarkenton '80s 49ers: Montana '80s Broncos: Elway late '80s/early '90s NYG: Simms/Hostetler '90s Bills: Kelly '90s Cowboys: Aikman '90s Packers: Favre '90s Broncos: Elway Late '90s/early 2000s Rams: Warner 2000s Patriots: Brady 2000s Steelers: Roethlisberger 2000s Colts: Manning The above list illustrates how much easier it becomes to make it to or win a Super Bowl if you have an elite-level quarterback. Compare that to the Ravens of 2000. They had one of the three best defenses of NFL history, they had an offensive line led by Hall of Fame-level Ogden at LT, and they had Jamal Lewis with his 2000 yard rushing season. And yet that team only won, or even made it to, one Super Bowl because it had been hamstrung by limitations at quarterback. Think of how much more it could have accomplished if it had had a guy like Carson Palmer or (better) Peyton Manning under center! The Bills are not going to be effective with Bell or anyone else currently on the roster at LT. If the rest of the world can see and understand that, why can't Gailey and Nix? I'll grant that as things currently stand, the Bills' situation at LT represents a hole bigger than the one that sunk the Titanic. Also, I agree that their offense will experience major limitations until that hole is addressed. I'm guessing/hoping that when they do address the position, they'll do so with a guy they believe to be the right answer at the position. That typically means a first round draft pick, or else a guy taken in the early second round. Under this theory, there were no tackles they liked at #9. But that would just mean that they'd want to address the LT position early in the 2010 draft.
bisonbrigade Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 It's 50% Trent and 50% the coaching staff and players around him. So hopefully he cab be %50 better than he was. Maybe?
thewildrabbit Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 Aside for Okung, the top OT's weren't that good this year. It's good we waited and took Wang. I can't wait to see the Trent Williams pick blow up in Shanahan's face- maybe he will get McNabb injured too because he is a lazy piece of garbage. Where do you guys come up with this stuff? Can you provide a link from some known authority that backs up that statement, or is it your opinion? Our offensive line is the result of nearly 20 years of bad drafting, and despite what was said earlier, things don't turn around overnight. It took Miami about three years to rebuild that offensive line- Pennington and Long came in at the end of that. Cam Cameron drafted the center the year before Parcels got there, the RT was drafted in 2004. LG Justin Smiley was a FA that Parcels brought in, as was the right guard, So Parcels brought in the LT-LG-RG. Nick Saban didn't draft any O linemen the 2 years previous to Parcels arriving there, Cam Cameron drafted the center when he was HC, so you got one player right. When Baltimore and St. Louis exploded onto the scene about a decade ago, it was after years of great drafting. The Baltimore Ravens have the "wizard of oz" Ozzie Newsome as their exec VP-GM and he is as highly regarded in the NFL as Bill Polian. Baltimore exploded because of Newsome's eye for talent, like the way he took LT Michael Oher in 08 whle every other team was afraid of the guy for some reason. Dick Vermeil built that Ram super bowl team and Mike Martz dismantled it. Vermeil got to the Rams in 07 and in 3 short years of drafting they won a SB in 09. Buckle up, Bills fans- you will wait and you will be patient! Every great team usually has a great GM-VP-HC who can properly evaluate talent, maybe the Bills have that guy in Buddy Nix...and maybe not. What leads me to think they may have the wrong guy is the fact that the night free agency opened, Nix stated he was going to bed instead of talking to players. The Bills have not made any big moves to shore up any part of the team with any high value free agent. I dunno, perhaps RW doesn't trust anyone under 70 anymore. All I do know is I'd rather have seen the Bills hire a bright young mind like the Falcons did in Thomas Demitroff, who they stole away from the Pats.
yungmack Posted June 10, 2010 Posted June 10, 2010 We now have a coach that can help develop a QB...something we haven't had in a long long time. IF the line can pass protect, and Edwards stinks this year, then stick a fork in him. The O-Line's ability to pass protect remains a huge question mark at this point. I have to believe that our opinion -- or the opinion of a substantial number of people around here -- that our O line stinks, is incorrect. If it was truly really bad, Nixley would definitely be making all sorts of moves (trades, shuffling players, signing FAs, etc). Because that's NOT happening, because there's no particular sense of panic, management and coaches must feel pretty good about what they have. And because they are far, far more experienced at judging and coaching football players than I am, I'm going to trust that they know what they're doing. Of course, I fully expect that tiny, vocal minority of perpetual pessimists who can't stay away from posting at TSW will dismiss what I've just written because they seem to believe that all coaches and management with the Bills are idiots who don't know nearly as much about football as their critics do.
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