Where your New York tax dollars go...

[Joe Miner]

I don't think there's much justification for the ladder of pay increases without any merit factoring into it, but I think good teachers deserve more incentives. Bad ones deserve less.

 

You'll never get that with the government being the employer.

 

But mention to a teacher about privatizing all schools. I've never met one that thought that would be fair to them.

[KD in CA]

You'll never get that with the government being the employer.

 

But mention to a teacher about privatizing all schools. I've never met one that thought that would be fair to them.

 

Sure, because they are parroting the union line. Meanwhile, the teachers unions are spending big bucks in Albany to limit the expansion of successful NY charter schools because they don't give a flying f--- about quality education.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Sorry, but give me a break. A couple of weeks ago, 30,000 union members (though noted that not all were teachers) protested Christie's plans. If there are some teachers who were accepting of pay freezes then they are being awfully silent...

 

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/05/p...out_in_for.html

 

"New Jersey Education Association President Barbara Keshishian criticized Christie for his "arrogant, destructive policies." The governor and the state teachers' unions have been feuding for months over pay freezes."

 

 

These "we do it for the children" teachers should be thanking their lucky stars they even have jobs in this economy. But these little piggies are crying about the prospects of pay freezes in a state where 70 billion wealth left the state between 2004 and 2008 due to it's high tax rate...

 

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/...th_over_fo.html

Knowing that nothing short of "all teachers are stupid leeches - school's out for EVER!" would satisfy you, let me respond.

 

So, 30K union supporters - not all of whom teachers - represent the 200,000-member teachers’ union, or all teachers in general?

 

You're getting me entirely wrong here. I think the pay freezes should happen - it's a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees. And NJ has major issues.

 

As for my response above, I was simply saying that this one arrogant and "unhappy teacher" that is obviously more fortunate than she realizes cuts a nice target for Christie - and a single face is easy to focus on for those too lazy to focus on the entirety of the issue at hand.

 

I would say in the same way that Christie makes an easy target for the unions and it's a lot easier to focus on him as the bad guy than to face the real issues. This is a systemic problem that needs people who will act like adults to solve it. I won't be holding my breath. I think the union has an appropriate grievance in saying it's a violation of collective bargaining, and they are trying to avoid setting a precedent where their contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on. I don't think it's a very smart position, though -- I'd say let's work on saving the jobs and realize what's at stake here, and try to look better than Christie in the face of this by not playing the victim card.

 

However, demonizing teachers at large is not going to get you the thing you want, which is ultimately better teachers. As with doctors and frivolous lawsuits, there'll be plenty of people saying the position is not worth it in the face of insane public scrutiny, parents whose kids can do no wrong, unfunded mandates and threats based on tests that have little to do with building the skills kids need to succeed in life.

 

But carry on. All teachers is dumb and lazy and overpaid!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Sure, because they are parroting the union line. Meanwhile, the teachers unions are spending big bucks in Albany to limit the expansion of successful NY charter schools because they don't give a flying f--- about quality education.

I have a friend who works for Brooklyn Public Schools in ESL. He has worked in SC public schools (no union), a charter school in NYC (no union) and now for NYC public. He thinks there are things about each system that are very positive. For example, he'd like to initiate some of the training and extra programs with parents that the union-free schools mandated, but the union is sort of a brickwall to that, which is sad, unfortunate and stupid. However, he explained to me a few reasons that charter schools aren't really a failsafe solution.

 

He says that one statistic about the charter schools that really doesn't tell the whole story is the high graduation rates. Reason being: they can kick out anyone they want, whenever they want. So, while admissions are competitive no matter your background, they can kick a kid out for simply being "disruptive," which is judged pretty loosely. Hence, the kids who they think might not graduate in an opening class of 50 get bounced to a public school in mid-semester, where they can drag down a classroom but can't get kicked out. But all 30 remaining kids in that charter school class graduate and the numbers look great.

 

I think charter schools can do a world of good, but they are relying on public schools as their safety valve to this point.

[KD in CA]

I have a friend who works for Brooklyn Public Schools in ESL. He has worked in SC public schools (no union), a charter school in NYC (no union) and now for NYC public. He thinks there are things about each system that are very positive. For example, he'd like to initiate some of the training and extra programs with parents that the union-free schools mandated, but the union is sort of a brickwall to that, which is sad, unfortunate and stupid. However, he explained to me a few reasons that charter schools aren't really a failsafe solution.

 

He says that one statistic about the charter schools that really doesn't tell the whole story is the high graduation rates. Reason being: they can kick out anyone they want, whenever they want. So, while admissions are competitive no matter your background, they can kick a kid out for simply being "disruptive," which is judged pretty loosely. Hence, the kids who they think might not graduate in an opening class of 50 get bounced to a public school in mid-semester, where they can drag down a classroom but can't get kicked out. But all 30 remaining kids in that charter school class graduate and the numbers look great.

 

I think charter schools can do a world of good, but they are relying on public schools as their safety valve to this point.

 

I agree that charter schools are not a cure-all. Hopefully they are not as crass as kicking kids out to help the stats, but if they have to make numbers I could see it happening.

 

It won't help us to leave just the problem kids in public schools, but you sure can't blame parents who want to pull their kids out of classrooms where there are disruptive kids that can't and won't be disciplined.

 

Public schools are broken because there is no accountability; either fiscally or by any other measure. And a major part of that is the existence of huge unions that will hinder any progression of the system that threatens their sole reason for existence: perpetuation of their own power. They simply have no reasonable need to exist in public schools (or in any other government function aside from cops, but that's another thread).

[RuntheDamnBall]

I agree that charter schools are not a cure-all. Hopefully they are not as crass as kicking kids out to help the stats, but if they have to make numbers I could see it happening.

 

It won't help us to leave just the problem kids in public schools, but you sure can't blame parents who want to pull their kids out of classrooms where there are disruptive kids that can't and won't be disciplined.

 

Public schools are broken because there is no accountability; either fiscally or by any other measure. And a major part of that is the existence of huge unions that will hinder any progression of the system that threatens their sole reason for existence: perpetuation of their own power. They simply have no reasonable need to exist in public schools (or in any other government function aside from cops, but that's another thread).

I think the one area where they need to exist - or that some other type of job protection needs to exist - is to protect teachers from the parent or school board that has a particular agenda against them, often for reasons such as the teacher asks the kid to "work too hard." I've definitely seen some good teachers bounced before tenure because a school board member's son flunked their class. Tenure is its own problem and I don't know that that's the answer. I do like the parent-school contract model of the charter schools, though it's sad and silly that such a thing needs to be expressed in writing.

 

There needs to be a better review process when a teacher is facing reprimand for misdeeds ranging from harsh grading to corporal punishment to legitimate abuse. I'd also like to see more alternative educational models including more vocational ed, more personal finance taught in schools, and less emphasis on college for everyone straight out of high school as the only path to success.

[Alaska Darin]

Teachers like that cut an easy target for Christie, but they don't represent the whole and they don't represent the teachers I know.

The teacher's you know aren't the norm...

[RuntheDamnBall]

The teacher's you know aren't the norm...

I agree that that's a decent possibility. Honest question for your own opinion: how can we get more qualified teachers in our schools? Do we entice them to defect from the private sector? Do we close all schools and start from scratch? It's really a conundrum, and I don't think eliminating the public school system is an option if we want a safe and civil society.

[Alaska Darin]

I agree that that's a decent possibility. Honest question for your own opinion: how can we get more qualified teachers in our schools? Do we entice them to defect from the private sector? Do we close all schools and start from scratch? It's really a conundrum, and I don't think eliminating the public school system is an option if we want a safe and civil society.

I don't think there's an easy answer but the current direction of "trickle down" certainly isn't working. I've often laughed at the liberal hypocrisy against "Trickle Down Economics" while attempting to do the same thing with virtually every other subject they get their paws into.

 

Frankly, I've never believed there's a role for the Federal Government in education and they haven't done much to prove me wrong. I think things like "NCLB" do far more harm than good and further remove creativity from the people who do the real work.

 

At some point, people at the local level need to rise up and say enough.

[RuntheDamnBall]

I don't think there's an easy answer but the current direction of "trickle down" certainly isn't working. I've often laughed at the liberal hypocrisy against "Trickle Down Economics" while attempting to do the same thing with virtually every other subject they get their paws into.

 

Frankly, I've never believed there's a role for the Federal Government in education and they haven't done much to prove me wrong. I think things like "NCLB" do far more harm than good and further remove creativity from the people who do the real work.

 

At some point, people at the local level need to rise up and say enough.

I disagree with none of this. The municipalities and states also need to wise up and not count on the Fed Gov dollars, and not spend on frivolous capital projects all the time. I've seen magnificent school buildings go up in WNY in the past ten years with little accounting for the dwindling populations. They're half-full now. It's asinine.

[Alaska Darin]

I disagree with none of this. The municipalities and states also need to wise up and not count on the Fed Gov dollars, and not spend on frivolous capital projects all the time. I've seen magnificent school buildings go up in WNY in the past ten years with little accounting for the dwindling populations. They're half-full now. It's asinine.

I'm not sure when schools went from functional to "cathedral" but the edifices that they build now border on obscene. It's no longer about fundamentals, it's like a dick measuring contest.

 

There are so many things wrong with the "system" that I'm not even sure where to begin. The slippery slope of government control has led to what is basically parental apathy. I think that would take more than a generation to fix, if it's even possible.

 

One of the local schools hired a new principle and things really started turning around. Of course, that meant the bad apples got expelled and the bad students (the "pass alongs", as I call them) started failing. That brought in the bureaucrats because lower enrollments and failures mean less money. Guess which direction the tide has turned since?

 

There isn't anything politicians can't screw up.

[Bronc24]

As a Canadian teacher, I say thank you mom and dad for choosing this country.....