Holy Crap, this team wasn't doing Squats?!?!?!!?

[John from Riverside]

John - don't waste your time responding to this insect.

 

I do this to myself cincy and I need to stop....should have never brought up my son again.

 

I have Sooooo much good news I would like to share with the board on my kids but...............

[BEAST MODE BABY!]

Did you play football or were you just looking in from the outside? If you played I'd love to chat. If not I'd love to know your perspective.

 

Did not play. But when guys go from average size to super-huge over a summer or two, it looks odd.

 

I don't have any direct evidence, but it was talked about (a lot) with certain guys, one of whom went on to play at Syracuse (when they were still good).

 

It's kinda like in college. There was no evidence or NCAA infractions for Glenn Robinson that he was getting kick backs, but explain to me how a guy from the projects has a brand new red Cadillac and and a new gray Jeep on campus. People notice things, whether it's in high school or college

[transient]

Did not play. But when guys go from average size to super-huge over a summer or two, it looks odd.

 

I don't have any direct evidence, but it was talked about (a lot) with certain guys, one of whom went on to play at Syracuse (when they were still good).

 

It's kinda like in college. There was no evidence or NCAA infractions for Glenn Robinson that he was getting kick backs, but explain to me how a guy from the projects has a brand new red Cadillac and and a new gray Jeep on campus. People notice things, whether it's in high school or college

 

Not saying it's not impossible, as steroid use in high schools is (or was) an epidemic, but on the flip-side in the right setting a teenager can bulk up pretty quickly. I was 160# at 18 during my sophomore year of college, and bulked up to 195# in just over a semester. It coincided with working out 3-5 times per week during my last teenage "growth spurt". Nothing artificial.

[Griswold]

+1 for most interesting thread of the off season. I actually read most of the 5 pages of posts.

 

My add: Due to the draft system, free agency, the salary cap, and that most coaches are pretty equal in scheme effectiveness --- all the NFL teams are fairly equal.

 

If you want to rise to the top, here are your leverage points:

• game day coaching decisions (different from weekday scheme coaching)
  
• injury luck (which is a dash of luck, but also conditioning)
  

All our recent Coaches have sucked on game day.

 

Since 2005, our players have been poorly conditioned.

 

I don't have a good feel for Chan's game day decisions... but I do feel conditioning may be going in the right direction.

[Big Turk]

Im sorry but an NFL team not squatting just blows me away.

 

 

What a joke...squats are one of the best exercises period because it works the biggest muscles in the body...the legs in a way that machines and other methods just can't...I played soccer and to help get us in condition we combined a front barbell squat with a continuous motion shoulder press(obviously you weren't using the same weight as you would on a normal squat). After doing ten of those you were sucking wind like you would be after running some gassers...just took the life right out of you...

 

For a pro football team to not be doing squats is almost unfathomable...

[Big Turk]

"Some guys haven't squatted since they left college," Whitner said. "My max was 405 [pounds] and that was three or four reps and I haven't done that since college. The way that they do it, you're not skipping a rep. They stand there and watch you. Every rep that you take they tell you what to put on there and if you can't do it, you go down a little."

 

I think this last part of the quote bothers me more. Without getting into a philosophical debate, squatting and cleans can be hard on the back and knees. There are alternatives, such as leg press, and some S&T coaches may prefer to utilize alternatives. Regardless of what exercises the players are told to do, Donte's quote implies that the S&T coaches really didn't keep tabs on the QUALITY of the player's workouts and that is simply unacceptable.

 

I completely disagree...I used to be able leg press way way more weight than I could squat. The leg press only works your quads and ignores the rest of the leg and core, while the squat forces you to utilize all those muscles in conjunction with each other. Yes, its main focus is the quad, but you have a lot of other muscles coming into play that only using a leg machine did not.

[Big Turk]

I am about as far as you get from a professional athlete but how was Donte Whitner only squatting 405 for 3 or 4 when graduating from Ohio State and being picked in the top 15 of the NFL Draft?

 

I went to Webster High School in New York and we had at least 8 or 10 guys doing this in HIGH SCHOOL. Not all of them were lineman either. I was only 205 at the time and was doing 405 for 12. (This isn't about me so don't say I'm a tough guy or anything like that)

 

My point is, how does an NFL caliber player only squat 405 for 3 or 4? I can't help but question work ethic in that case. Maybe it's just me.

 

I don't what the reason is for sure, but I can tell you that it might be because the trainers do not want certain positions lifting more than a certain amount of weight because they feel like it will impact their quickness and speed if their muscles get too bulky. My soccer coach in college basically embarrassed me in front of the team and told them the last he wants them to do in the weight room is to end up looking like me because they are doing more harm than good to themselves . Now granted I was not even close to being some Arnold Schwarzennegar but I was a gym rat and ended up getting too big for my coaches liking, which he let me know by embarrassing me like that. I wasn't really happy because I was still one o the fastest and quickest players on the team, but he told me that not everyone might be able to maintain that and that I was setting a bad example for them...

 

The thought is that for athletes relying on speed and quickness more than brute strength is that lifting too much weight changes the way your muscles act and makes you slower and stiffer the bigger they get after a certain point. Lineman probably are going to allowed to squat a much higher weight than other players since they need strong legs to help anchor them while blocking. For other positions, they likely are not allowed to squat more than a certain weight because of trainers fearing their muscles will get too big and bulky and will impact their speed and quickness...just a thought.

[Hossage]

I think Whitners squat is about in line for a 200 pound man. CMjoyce seems to have an exceptional squat for his weight. I was a football player and track athlete in college. I would say most of the sprinters with a physique similar to whitners had similar numbers.

 

Allow me to be the fiftieth player to register his disgust at the lack of squatting going on. I broke the triple jump record at my college, and I could jump down a flight of stairs and not get hurt. Without heavy lifts and plyometrics, I could not have gotten there. I could not have done it with machines.

 

After reading about the lack of squatting, I'm seriously pissed off.

[Whites Bay]

Agree wholeheartedly! I'm 51 years old, 6' tall and weigh 165 and I squat EVERY MORNING. That, and plenty of

Metamucil, is how I stay regular. If I didn't squat I'd need a colonic.

 

Actually, I believe this is the best response to the thread. I just didn't need the visual.

[Hossage]

That was pretty funny.

 

I dont want players to just squat. I want them pushing cars down the road for intervals. I want them duck walking while they overhead press. This Jauron thing of players being responsible for being in shape is hogwash. Football isnt an individual sport.

[DarthICE]

I hear ya. My back is shot for weight lifting for years. Squats and seated military presses are the worst for your back. Squats are alright with lighter weights and NOT going past Parallel for the knee. Running up hills will build your legs and not hurt your back and knees .

 

 

Bull ****. NOT going past parallel is what would hurt the knees. Olympic lifters, ass to grass with the weight, you dont' see them blowing out ACL's or getting knee replacements

 

Man some of you are so far off on squatting it isn't funny.

[GaryPinC]

I completely disagree...I used to be able leg press way way more weight than I could squat. The leg press only works your quads and ignores the rest of the leg and core, while the squat forces you to utilize all those muscles in conjunction with each other. Yes, its main focus is the quad, but you have a lot of other muscles coming into play that only using a leg machine did not.

 

You should be able to leg press almost twice as much as you squat because of the 45° angle of the machine. You're not working directly against gravity with the leg press. I will never argue that the squat is not a great all around exercise, simply that it can be hard on your back and knees and there are alternatives. Leg press, abducter and adducter leg machine, leg curls, leg extensions, back extensions, and sit-ups when done together can all be a pretty good substitue for squat without putting as much strain on your back in particular. I did find one paper that compared squat vs leg press by recording electrical activity (EMG) at selected muscles of the leg and lower back.

 

Realize that this paper has a number of major shortfalls. Besides being poorly written and the data poorly explained/presented, they failed to account for the fact that the leg muscles were doing much less work at the leg press because they failed to increase the weight to account for the angle of the machine. Also, their standard deviations are monstrous, in the normal group some SDs are larger than the mean! How the hell they claim some of their P values is beyond me, I can tell you as someone who works as a researcher that when your standard deviations overlap the means of your comparitor groups there is no statistical significance unless you're manipulating your data. Bottom line is that even though they show substantial differences between squat and leg press the huge variability in the data means there may be little or no difference between any of them.

 

Anyways, my point is that this paper does show that squat works the muscle more than leg press, but that leg press does work many of the same muscles as squat, including the gluts and lower back muscles. If they had weight compensated the leg press machine I would bet that those EMG #s would be much higher.

 

Here's a link to the paper:

http://www.med.und.edu/depts/pt/PT%20Websi...ressvsSquat.htm

 

And here's another site where this woman does a decent job of comparing squat and leg press and also suggesting leg press + partial deadlifts as a squat substitute which I thought was an interesting idea.

 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/shannon1.htm

 

BTW, I played soccer until sophmore year of high school. I weighed around 185 pounds but everyone thought I weighed 135 because I had no upper body. I made the switch to football and started weight lifting for the first time. Our lifting coach grouped us according to how much weight we could lift. Pretty quickly I was squatting with the linemen, but all my upper body work was with the younger quarterbacks/receivers. Took me most of the way through college to correct that imbalance.

[GaryPinC]

Your point is well taken. I have had two back operations. There is no scenario where it is appropriate for me to put any amount of weight on my shoulders and not risk further damaging my spine. People who have had multiple knee procedures have to be very judicious and selective as to the type of exercise that they do. The treadmill might not be appropriate for anyone with joint issues while the elliptical might be an excellent option to get the necessary cardio work in.

 

Some people can only see black and white and not handle complexity and nuance. Your posts on this issue are very well stated and reasoned.

 

Thanks for all the good points. Sorry to hear about your back troubles. Once the damage is done it gets especially difficult because you'd like to strengthen the muscles to help support the frame but it's difficult to do without pain or further damaging your spine. In my 20's I used to work a job clearing trees and we had to hand carry 6-10 foot sections up to 12" in diameter over to the chipper for grinding. I'd put in an exhausting 10 hour day and then head to the gym to workout for a couple hours. Definitely lucky to have avoided troubles like yours.

[GaryPinC]

Bull ****. NOT going past parallel is what would hurt the knees. Olympic lifters, ass to grass with the weight, you dont' see them blowing out ACL's or getting knee replacements

 

Man some of you are so far off on squatting it isn't funny.

 

 

Here, read this and be sure to check out his qualifications and that of the Doctor whose info he borrows:

 

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drsquat12.htm

 

 

"Squats can be bad for your knees. Period. But they're good for everything else."

 

"Among bodybuilders who have knee problems, however, squatting is the only culprit. In both cases, squatting properly can reduce, prevent or ameliorate many, many of the common knee problems inherent in sports. That they will make you a better bodybuilder or athlete is an unquestioned fact."

 

While proper form is essential, even these guys acknowledge knee problems will still happen. Funny how they don't discuss lower back problems.

[Thurman#1]

No, he left because even in Jauron's resort camp the work was too much. Also, no Krispy Kreme. Too Expensive.

 

 

 

Yeah, 'cause the Eagles are famous for their easy lifting program.

 

Hate Peters? Fine. Make stuff up about him just because you hate him? Not fine so much.

[Thurman#1]

Bull ****. NOT going past parallel is what would hurt the knees. Olympic lifters, ass to grass with the weight, you dont' see them blowing out ACL's or getting knee replacements

 

Man some of you are so far off on squatting it isn't funny.

 

 

 

And again, you're refusing to see the complexity to the situation. It's not black and white.

 

Guys with different goals, different injury histories, guys trying to lose weight versus guys trying to put on weight, different physiognomies and all the other hundreds of little variables have legitimately different approaches to exercises, including squats.

 

EDIT: As I worked my way down, I see that GaryPinC and others made my point for me, and much better besides.

 

People in lifting get caught up in these little eddies and whorls where they believe that one school and one school only has the correct idea, and that everyone else is wrong. They get their ideas primarily from other lifters and perhaps read a book or two which those lifters recommend. Few read the journal studies, and few acknowledge that people like strength coaches, physical therapists and other experts might possibly know more than they do.

 

The world of lifting is weird, frankly. And it draws the macho types who defend what they first learned from their mentors to the death, regardless of what their mentors taught, and where they learned it.

[DarthICE]

Bottom line, cut the bull **** and SQUAT. All these alternitives, excuses are pure crap. There is NO substitute for putting the weight on your shoulders (front or back) and squatting. They are NOT bad for the knees or back unless you are doing them wrong period.

[Buffaloed in Pa]

His name is Shane Conlan.

His name is MONEY MAYBIN

[Sisyphean Bills]

Bottom line, cut the bull **** and SQUAT. All these alternitives, excuses are pure crap. There is NO substitute for putting the weight on your shoulders (front or back) and squatting. They are NOT bad for the knees or back unless you are doing them wrong period.

It's hard to do squats when you're watching Oprah.

[....lybob]

people might not have know this team didn't do squats in the last decade but everyone knew this team hasn't done squat in the last decade.