Thurman#1 Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Leg presses do NOT substitute for squats. There are no better exercises for the quads, hams, glutes than the squat. Combined with deadlifts, squats make for the most formidable of exercises. What you do depends on your goal. Squats are the king of leg exercises, but that doesn't mean that they are good for everybody at every position with every goal in terms of increasing or reducing weight and muscle mass, etc.
BEAST MODE BABY! Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 theres nothing funnier than seeing a guy with huge biceps and tiny little chicken legged calves Those kind of guys are almost as bad as the dude from Lady in the Water, who only worked out one arm
GaryPinC Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Not to debate with you just offering a different take; what you say can be true, but those problems usually occur when folks don't build up the strength and stamina in their legs and back first. I see it at the gym all the time; guys want to put the most weight on and do their reps. Even though they might be able to do a particular weight they may not have developed the muscle strength to deal with the after effects of that weight, then they start to develop knee and back problems. Nothing done on a machine will give a better result than using free weight IMO. After a while out of the gym I fell into this trap and started getting a sore knee. Started using lighter weight to build strength back up in the muscle surrounding the knee. Then eventually once I did, what is for me, heavier weight my knee was fine. If I recall correctly when Gailey changed the weight room around they also ordered new equipment (more free weights) and there was a comment about machines being taken out. Machine's, to me, are good for sustaining strength, but not so much building it once a lifter has reached a certain strength plateau. There's no debate, I agree with you completely and they're all very good points. My attitude about machines is that they're a great finisher after a free weight workout. But no matter how conservative or how much prep work you do, you can look at a given lift and find someone whose body can't handle the movement involved very well.
GaryPinC Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Ignorant my ass. Squats are NOT bad for the knees, doing any leg work wrong is bad for the knees. Ignorance is saying Squats are bad when in fact they aren't. My point of my lengthy post is that squats CAN be very bad for the knees and back even when using good form. I didn't say it had to be so, simply that it depends on a number of factors, some of which I discussed in my lengthy post. If you refuse to recognize that variations in the inflammatory pathways, bones, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, or overall joint structure will not allow some healthy people to properly perform this lift without incurring injury, I'm sorry I find that ignorant.
Mr. WEO Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 "Some guys haven't squatted since they left college," Whitner said. "My max was 405 [pounds] and that was three or four reps and I haven't done that since college. The way that they do it, you're not skipping a rep. They stand there and watch you. Every rep that you take they tell you what to put on there and if you can't do it, you go down a little." I think this last part of the quote bothers me more. Without getting into a philosophical debate, squatting and cleans can be hard on the back and knees. There are alternatives, such as leg press, and some S&T coaches may prefer to utilize alternatives. Regardless of what exercises the players are told to do, Donte's quote implies that the S&T coaches really didn't keep tabs on the QUALITY of the player's workouts and that is simply unacceptable. If some of these guys had only taken Squatting 101 in college, they would have been able to perform these very complex exercises LAST year at the Bills facility on their own or with a friend! What has a college education become?? Guys are leaving totally unprepared.
Shoto Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Jauron had no emotion and it is hard to lead people without emotion. Everyone took the easy road under the house dick destroyed. Dick's peewee funhouse lead to 6-10. Accountabilty start at the top. Long live Chan and the Bills
cmjoyce113 Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 You also probably don't even go close to parallel, no offense...maybe 1 out of every 10 or 15 guys I see doing squats gets anywhere close ot a good lift Actually I went well past parallel and won a local lift a thon 3 years in a row. Our coach Tony Bianchi stressed going past parallel more than anything. I also believe we had the best strength and conditioning coach in all of high school in Jim Bellucco. I am sure that's why it led us to AA State Championships 3 out of 4 years and 6 consecutive Sectional Titles. Parallel wasn't a problem for us. That however wasn't the point. A pro athlete should probably work a bit harder.
Sisyphean Bills Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 theres nothing funnier than seeing a guy with huge biceps and tiny little chicken legged calves Who needs to straighten their arms anyway?
cmjoyce113 Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I went to Webster myself, and when I was there at least a few football players, if not more, were doing steroids. Coincidence? Did you play football or were you just looking in from the outside? If you played I'd love to chat. If not I'd love to know your perspective.
JohnC Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 My point of my lengthy post is that squats CAN be very bad for the knees and back even when using good form. I didn't say it had to be so, simply that it depends on a number of factors, some of which I discussed in my lengthy post. If you refuse to recognize that variations in the inflammatory pathways, bones, cartilage, tendons, ligaments, or overall joint structure will not allow some healthy people to properly perform this lift without incurring injury, I'm sorry I find that ignorant. Your point is well taken. I have had two back operations. There is no scenario where it is appropriate for me to put any amount of weight on my shoulders and not risk further damaging my spine. People who have had multiple knee procedures have to be very judicious and selective as to the type of exercise that they do. The treadmill might not be appropriate for anyone with joint issues while the elliptical might be an excellent option to get the necessary cardio work in. Some people can only see black and white and not handle complexity and nuance. Your posts on this issue are very well stated and reasoned.
Malazan Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Could this be a part of the reason why Peters left? Hell if I'm a 300+ lb lineman and my team doesn't believe in strengthening my legs I'd be worried. No, he left because even in Jauron's resort camp the work was too much. Also, no Krispy Kreme. Too Expensive.
abqmarko Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Incredibly ignorant statement. Just to clarify, I greatly prefer free weights to work out. I do believe in doing core exercises such as bench and squat. I was also strictly taught form and always being in control of the weights, 1003 count on the negatives, explode through the positives, never lock out knees and elbows. I had proper depth of squats hammered into me. I don't worry about the weight, I simply worry about form, control, and high intensity. Increases in weight or reps then take care of themselves. Putting hundreds of pounds on your back has the potential to be VERY bad for your back, knees. Oh, I know. With proper form your back is fine. Maybe, maybe not. Even with perfect form, you are still compressing your vertebrae, because that's what happens when your body physically has to support hundreds of pounds to allow your muscles to exercise. After you're done maybe your spine decompresses on it's own. Maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, you've just increased your chances at a pinched nerve or herniated disc. And maybe you don't injure it while squatting but it weakens the area and then you injure it the next day doing something completely different. There are 2 components to weight lifting: the ability of your muscles to lift the weight, and the ability of your bones, joints, tendons, and ligaments to handle the load of the weight. And as you get older, (I'm 40) there's this little thing called inflammation that you scarcely knew existed in your teens and 20's starts to creep in to your joints even with perfect form . Also, your cartiliage can wear down, your tendons and ligaments lose some strength and elasticity. I still squat, but if I've not done it awhile I need to do leg extensions, leg curls, and leg press to make sure I can handle the weight and the movement without injuring something or overstretching my ligaments. Just as an example, I gave up deadlifting at the end of high school. I am 6'2" and have fairly long legs but arms are not that long. While deadlifting, the bar was always knocking my knees on the way up. Taking an extra wide stance to clear the bar hurt my knee joint, leaning out a little farther hurt my back. Ended up leaning out a little farther but decided to give the lift up. Shorter guys who don't have to bend their knees as much probably never have this issue. Everyone is constructed differently. I mean alignment of muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, nerves can all have subtle alignment differences which can influence the ability to perform a lift (even with perfect form). The length of the arms, legs, the way someone stands, all of this. There is more than one way to skin a cat. While I agree that core lifts are best, some people's bodies can't handle certain types of lifts even when using perfect form. If that's the case you adjust for core lifts with a series of isolated ones that try to hit all the same muscle groups (and don't completely make up for a good core lift like a squat) but save wear and tear and increase your strength. That's the crux of Ross Tucker's article (tailoring the workout to the individual) and I obviously agree with him. Those who believe that squats won't or can't hurt your back/knees, well that might be true for some of you but the rest will see the truth in time. As for Allaire's crew, I can allow them to substitue core lifts for a series of others to save wear and tear on the back, knees, elbows. It's completely unacceptable that they'd allow the players to cheat their workouts. good information. I only hope the new strength and conditioning coaches hit things suited to each body type. I live in Albuqerque, New Mexico now and its really the hot bed of MMA/UFC training in the world. Alot of the training involves lifting your own body weight, crossfit and core type exercises. Although MMA is very different from football the strength built is functional and would improve performance and reduce injury. I hope the new trainers look at these some of these training options.
transient Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 theres nothing funnier than seeing a guy with huge biceps and tiny little chicken legged calves His name is Shane Conlan.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 "Some guys haven't squatted since they left college," Whitner said. "My max was 405 [pounds] and that was three or four reps and I haven't done that since college. The way that they do it, you're not skipping a rep. They stand there and watch you. Every rep that you take they tell you what to put on there and if you can't do it, you go down a little." I think this last part of the quote bothers me more. Without getting into a philosophical debate, squatting and cleans can be hard on the back and knees. There are alternatives, such as leg press, and some S&T coaches may prefer to utilize alternatives. Regardless of what exercises the players are told to do, Donte's quote implies that the S&T coaches really didn't keep tabs on the QUALITY of the player's workouts and that is simply unacceptable. For the past few years the players talked about doing their jobs and the coaches weren't. Now it sounds like the coaches are doing their jobs and the players are talking about winning.
John from Riverside Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Please allow me to add my perspective on this....... Squats, Deadlifts, and PowerCleans are the biulding blocks to an athletes explosive functional strength..... Let me put it this way......as I reported a while back my son who had a chance to play College Football (linebacker) tore his ACL his senior year. He is coming up on his 6th month of rehab and is going to go to a JUCO to play but will redshirt his first year (in Juco this essentially means you dont carry a full load of classes so your 4 year clock does not start) - While in excellent shape because he kept doing what he could through rehab......he has lost about 15 pounds of muscle....a lot in his lower body....and even some in the upper body because he cannot do these core lifts - Because he has not been able to do these core lifts...it has taken away from his speed and explosion. All needed for a football player to do their job - He is going to work out with the team and get in their playbook.....but he gets no playing time UNTIL he has resumed his core lifts. It is literally unfathomable to me that a football player would not squat.....it biulds core strength all over the body. And it is NOT hard on the knees if performed correctly with spotters.
spartacus Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 " well we can be pretty sure that none of the Bills are using performance enhancing drugs". good thing that's going to change now that the Bills have brought in some expertise from the performance enhancing drug mecca of power lifting
spartacus Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Please allow me to add my perspective on this....... Squats, Deadlifts, and PowerCleans are the biulding blocks to an athletes explosive functional strength..... Let me put it this way......as I reported a while back my son who had a chance to play College Football (linebacker) tore his ACL his senior year. He is coming up on his 6th month of rehab and is going to go to a JUCO to play but will redshirt his first year (in Juco this essentially means you dont carry a full load of classes so your 4 year clock does not start) - While in excellent shape because he kept doing what he could through rehab......he has lost about 15 pounds of muscle....a lot in his lower body....and even some in the upper body because he cannot do these core lifts - Because he has not been able to do these core lifts...it has taken away from his speed and explosion. All needed for a football player to do their job - He is going to work out with the team and get in their playbook.....but he gets no playing time UNTIL he has resumed his core lifts. It is literally unfathomable to me that a football player would not squat.....it biulds core strength all over the body. And it is NOT hard on the knees if performed correctly with spotters. John- good to see your son has ash-canned the education part of the program that book learning stuff is way overrated, especially when it gets in the way of playing football.
Buffaloed in Pa Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Incredibly ignorant statement. Just to clarify, I greatly prefer free weights to work out. I do believe in doing core exercises such as bench and squat. I was also strictly taught form and always being in control of the weights, 1003 count on the negatives, explode through the positives, never lock out knees and elbows. I had proper depth of squats hammered into me. I don't worry about the weight, I simply worry about form, control, and high intensity. Increases in weight or reps then take care of themselves. Putting hundreds of pounds on your back has the potential to be VERY bad for your back, knees. Oh, I know. With proper form your back is fine. Maybe, maybe not. Even with perfect form, you are still compressing your vertebrae, because that's what happens when your body physically has to support hundreds of pounds to allow your muscles to exercise. After you're done maybe your spine decompresses on it's own. Maybe it doesn't. If it doesn't, you've just increased your chances at a pinched nerve or herniated disc. And maybe you don't injure it while squatting but it weakens the area and then you injure it the next day doing something completely different. There are 2 components to weight lifting: the ability of your muscles to lift the weight, and the ability of your bones, joints, tendons, and ligaments to handle the load of the weight. And as you get older, (I'm 40) there's this little thing called inflammation that you scarcely knew existed in your teens and 20's starts to creep in to your joints even with perfect form . Also, your cartiliage can wear down, your tendons and ligaments lose some strength and elasticity. I still squat, but if I've not done it awhile I need to do leg extensions, leg curls, and leg press to make sure I can handle the weight and the movement without injuring something or overstretching my ligaments. Just as an example, I gave up deadlifting at the end of high school. I am 6'2" and have fairly long legs but arms are not that long. While deadlifting, the bar was always knocking my knees on the way up. Taking an extra wide stance to clear the bar hurt my knee joint, leaning out a little farther hurt my back. Ended up leaning out a little farther but decided to give the lift up. Shorter guys who don't have to bend their knees as much probably never have this issue. Everyone is constructed differently. I mean alignment of muscles, joints, tendons, ligaments, nerves can all have subtle alignment differences which can influence the ability to perform a lift (even with perfect form). The length of the arms, legs, the way someone stands, all of this. There is more than one way to skin a cat. While I agree that core lifts are best, some people's bodies can't handle certain types of lifts even when using perfect form. If that's the case you adjust for core lifts with a series of isolated ones that try to hit all the same muscle groups (and don't completely make up for a good core lift like a squat) but save wear and tear and increase your strength. That's the crux of Ross Tucker's article (tailoring the workout to the individual) and I obviously agree with him. Those who believe that squats won't or can't hurt your back/knees, well that might be true for some of you but the rest will see the truth in time. As for Allaire's crew, I can allow them to substitue core lifts for a series of others to save wear and tear on the back, knees, elbows. It's completely unacceptable that they'd allow the players to cheat their workouts. I hear ya. My back is shot for weight lifting for years. Squats and seated military presses are the worst for your back. Squats are alright with lighter weights and NOT going past Parallel for the knee. Running up hills will build your legs and not hurt your back and knees .
John from Riverside Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 John- good to see your son has ash-canned the education part of the program that book learning stuff is way overrated, especially when it gets in the way of playing football. This is not a thread about education that is a separate matter. He plans on not taking a full load his first year then going back and finishing his two year requirements then transferring to a 4 year school. "Ashcanning" the education would be not going to College at all......which is easily a route he could have taken and I commend him for continuingon his eduation. But lets not let your lack of information get in the way of making a total ass out of yourself.
stuckincincy Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 This is not a thread about education that is a separate matter. He plans on not taking a full load his first year then going back and finishing his two year requirements then transferring to a 4 year school. "Ashcanning" the education would be not going to College at all......which is easily a route he could have taken and I commend him for continuingon his eduation. But lets not let your lack of information get in the way of making a total ass out of yourself. John - don't waste your time responding to this insect.
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