Help me understand something...

[sllib olaffub]

I'd argue that Center is the most important position on the line. LT is the most glamorous and gets the most attention. But solid lines always have top-notch Centers. Your Center is the leader of the squad. He makes the reads and calls. The strength of a line is built from the middle out. If you build a solid, consistent core interior (which is what the Bills FO went after by bringing in Wood, Levitre, and Hangartner) then you can get away with "serviceable" Tackles on the outside.

 

Conversely, adding an all-pro LT will not make a poor line that much stronger. Being great on one edge doesnt do anything to help your offense.

 

I definitely agree that Tackle is a position of major need for this team, and that we might not even have any "serviceable" players at the position. But I also understand why the FO has chosen to build the new line this way so far.

 

I agree that center is very important - especially going up against the 3-4 defenses we'll face this year, not to mention some tough DT's in some 4-3's. I'm hoping that Hangartner plays a lot better this year, because he didn't look all that good last year. I know there were a lot of changes and injuries - and that may very well be the reason, but, if he doesn't look quite a bit better this year then I hope we move Wood to center (I think Hangartner played guard before) and Hangartner could move to guard or be a terrific center/guard reserve.

[Bob in STL]

Therein lies the rub. He is small, weak, prone to penalties, and coming off a major injury.

 

It would be GREAT if he turns out to be even a decent player, but the odds appear to be slim from where I sit.

 

 

I am not a fan of going into the season with Bell as our #1 LT but to say he is small and weak and prone to penalties?

 

Let's be fair.

 

He has ideal size for a LT and he can train to build up his strength. He has agility, good feet, long arms and other such intangibles, he can easily get stronger.

 

Prone to penalties -- Let us consider the situation. He was thrown in as a starting LT just weeks before the start of the season when the Bills inexplicably cut Walker and fired their OC. He had no experience as a starter in the NFL. He was a seventh round project that played very little football prior to college. He was playing next to a rookie guard. He had very little blocking help from the TE. He was expected to start in a "no huddle" offense where experience, conditioning, and most importantly the ability to read defenses is key. On top of that he was starting his first NFL game on Monday Night Football, on the road, against New England.

 

I think in the right situation, with the right coaching he will settle down on the penalties. I cannot tell you with any certainty if he will be a good LT. Nix and Gailey need to handle that one.

[DrDawkinstein]

I agree that center is very important - especially going up against the 3-4 defenses we'll face this year, not to mention some tough DT's in some 4-3's. I'm hoping that Hangartner plays a lot better this year, because he didn't look all that good last year. I know there were a lot of changes and injuries - and that may very well be the reason, but, if he doesn't look quite a bit better this year then I hope we move Wood to center (I think Hangartner played guard before) and Hangartner could move to guard or be a terrific center/guard reserve.

 

Hangartner did something last year that we havent seen any other player do for this team in quite a while. and that is sacrifice to play through an injury. we'll never know how badly his back was hurting him when he was unable to snap the ball back to shotgun, but i give him credit for being tough and knowing that even with him being injured, it was still better than our options if he were to go out completely.

 

outside of that, i think he did very well for what he was up against and his surrounding help on the line.

 

im hoping the Bills can build on what we have already and Hangartner ends up a backup C/G eventually. But for now, and at least until Wood is ready to take over at C, he fills the position well.

[mpl6876]

Actually the term is a "Monet." They look good from afar, but up close they're a mess.

 

 

The Bills won 6 games last year with a below average/injured OL. This year Wood and Levitre won't be rookies and Hangartner won't have to cover for their mistakes. At tackle, if they don't suffer the massive injuries they did last year (losing Butler killed them), much less cut their projected starting LT days before the season opener (ugh!), they will be light years ahead of where they were last year. And having a real offensive scheme and not a scheme for which they were ill-equipped (no huddle), ill-prepared (AVP wasn't ready for primetime), and which was scrapped only a few games into the season, will help immensely.

 

Hey Doc good post but I don't agree with aspects of your post.

 

Opinion 1. To me the Bills only won 5 games because the Colts gave us the last game. (But your right they won 6)

 

Opinion 2. I am not sold on Woods nearly being as effective this year as last because of the nature of his injury and so forth... He is a "huge" question mark in my eyes.

 

Opinion 3. They are very weak at the left/right tackle positions.

 

I am looking forward to see what the new offensive coaching staff can put together and produce on the field. I appreciate your optimism and hope your are correct. However, I just don't see this offense doing well. No QB, weak OL, no proven receivers except Evans. Smells like a struggling offense to me. Gailey can't make mircles and I think many of us are praying and hoping he can. I just see teams putting 7-8 guys in the box and daring us to beat them with our passing game. Just my two cents guys.

[thewildrabbit]

Hey Doc good post but I don't agree with aspects of your post.

 

Opinion 1. To me the Bills only won 5 games because the Colts gave us the last game. (But your right they won 6)

 

Opinion 2. I am not sold on Woods nearly being as effective this year as last because of the nature of his injury and so forth... He is a "huge" question mark in my eyes.

 

Opinion 3. They are very weak at the left/right tackle positions.

 

I am looking forward to see what the new offensive coaching staff can put together and produce on the field. I appreciate your optimism and hope your are correct. However, I just don't see this offense doing well. No QB, weak OL, no proven receivers except Evans. Smells like a struggling offense to me. Gailey can't make mircles and I think many of us are praying and hoping he can. I just see teams putting 7-8 guys in the box and daring us to beat them with our passing game. Just my two cents guys.

Wood isn't the only question mark on the line in my opinion, as horrific as his leg injury appeared he could still recover to 100%...maybe.

 

Bell is coming off a torn ACL which some players never recover from, he only played 8 games before he hit the IR and if Hangartner struggled all last season with a bad back then what makes you think that won't be a reoccurring problem for him?

 

To me the entire offensive line is a huge question mark with only Levitre as the only really solid starter, and he is just going into his second year. I just don't see how the offense and QB's can improve with so many questions to the O line.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

The entire offense seems predicated on Spiller being able to make plays and allow the linemen to get away with less ability because he is so special, at least that is what Chan Gailey seems to think.

 

This isn't college anymore Chan, this is the pros and they will jam that little waterbug into yesterday at the LoS. Last time I looked he isn't Brandon Marshall who is so big and powerful he controls the line and doesn't allow himself to be jammed or taken out of his routes. Just because Spiller was a great player in college doesn't mean that will translate to the NFL.

 

At this point I remain very skeptical about the offense for the upcoming season for the Buffalo Bills, I hope I'm proven wrong.

[mpl6876]

Wood isn't the only question mark on the line in my opinion, as horrific as his leg injury appeared he could still recover to 100%...maybe.

 

Bell is coming off a torn ACL which some players never recover from, he only played 8 games before he hit the IR and if Hangartner struggled all last season with a bad back then what makes you think that won't be a reoccurring problem for him?

 

To me the entire offensive line is a huge question mark with only Levitre as the only really solid starter, and he is just going into his second year. I just don't see how the offense and QB's can improve with so many questions to the O line.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

The entire offense seems predicated on Spiller being able to make plays and allow the linemen to get away with less ability because he is so special, at least that is what Chan Gailey seems to think.

 

This isn't college anymore Chan, this is the pros and they will jam that little waterbug into yesterday at the LoS. Last time I looked he isn't Brandon Marshall who is so big and powerful he controls the line and doesn't allow himself to be jammed or taken out of his routes. Just because Spiller was a great player in college doesn't mean that will translate to the NFL.

 

At this point I remain very skeptical about the offense for the upcoming season for the Buffalo Bills, I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

Excellent follow up from my post. I couldn't agree with you more. I am skeptical at best that our offense will be effective. Not to mention (as I have on other post) that I think oppossing teams are going to "stack the box" and take away our running game. Then what? We don't have proven WR (except Lee) , a weak QB and a weak OL.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

The entire offense seems predicated on Spiller being able to make plays and allow the linemen to get away with less ability because he is so special, at least that is what Chan Gailey seems to think.

 

Right. Rainbow-farting unicorns and all. He had the right idea, just the wrong position. A great QB makes an OL better, not a great RB.

[Thurman#1]

I see ESPN and others saying we suck because our O line was green last year and we didn't address it in the draft....so our "green" line, including 2 very solid starters in Levitre and Wood, got experience last year...including Bell who may turn out pretty decent with a real offensive scheme and coaching, would get less "green" by drafting/reaching for linemen who have never played a down in the NFL?...it's not like there was a FA run on stud linemaen this year either.....

 

I feel we are going to surprise some folks this year...it'll be amazing what some consistancy in the scheme/coaching can do....

 

 

Saying that Bell, most likely the single worst lineman in the league last year, "may turn out pretty decent with a real offensive scheme and coaching," well, there's no particular reason to think that it makes the slightest bit of sense. Our o-line coach last year was one of the best in the league. That's why he's now the o-line coach of the Steelers. Bell had good coaching. And he still was extremely bad.

 

Yeah, Levitre and Wood might turn out to be solid guys, but they're two guys out of five, and the two most demanding positions on the line, LT and RT, are huge questions marks.

 

Your opinion is as good as anyone's, but there's no real solid reason to think that a bad player will get good suddenly, or that a career journeyman at RT will suddenly become better than he has ever been.

[Thurman#1]

.it'll be amazing what some consistancy in the scheme/coaching can do....

 

WTF? The coaches and schemes are all new! How is that consistent? Our young players have very little experience and the two vets Brown and Hangartner are not very good. Once the staff is here three years and we saw some progress you could say this but not yet. The coaching staff last year was there for three, now that was consistent, consistently poor but still consistent.

 

 

Yup. Exactly.

[Thurman#1]

I'd argue that Center is the most important position on the line. LT is the most glamorous and gets the most attention. But solid lines always have top-notch Centers. Your Center is the leader of the squad. He makes the reads and calls. The strength of a line is built from the middle out. If you build a solid, consistent core interior (which is what the Bills FO went after by bringing in Wood, Levitre, and Hangartner) then you can get away with "serviceable" Tackles on the outside.

 

Conversely, adding an all-pro LT will not make a poor line that much stronger. Being great on one edge doesnt do anything to help your offense.

 

I definitely agree that Tackle is a position of major need for this team, and that we might not even have any "serviceable" players at the position. But I also understand why the FO has chosen to build the new line this way so far.

 

 

 

Centers have to be smart. But center is the most physically easy position to handle on the OL. It's harder against 3 - 4 defenses, but usually centers are just handling one side of a double-team on the NT on runs and limiting how far they're pushed into the backfield on passes.

 

Solid lines always have top-notch centers? You mean like Dan Koppen, the average center in NE*, which allowed 18 sacks and got 4.1 YPA? Or John Sullivan, the not very good center in Minny? Or Kevin Mawae, who used to be out of this world, but now is below average on Tennessee's very good line, which gave up 15 sacks and got 5.2 YPA? Or Jonathan Goodwin, a very average center on New Orleans' very good line, which gave up 20 sacks and got 4.5 YPA? The facts are that solid lines have top-notch centers ... sometimes. Centers have to be smart, but you can get by with a smart but decent center.

 

 

 

LT is the crucial position when it comes to keeping your quarterback healthy and uninjured. What you're saying sounds wonderful, but doesn't stand up to observation.

[Green Lightning]

Wood isn't the only question mark on the line in my opinion, as horrific as his leg injury appeared he could still recover to 100%...maybe.

 

Bell is coming off a torn ACL which some players never recover from, he only played 8 games before he hit the IR and if Hangartner struggled all last season with a bad back then what makes you think that won't be a reoccurring problem for him?

 

To me the entire offensive line is a huge question mark with only Levitre as the only really solid starter, and he is just going into his second year. I just don't see how the offense and QB's can improve with so many questions to the O line.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

The entire offense seems predicated on Spiller being able to make plays and allow the linemen to get away with less ability because he is so special, at least that is what Chan Gailey seems to think.

 

This isn't college anymore Chan, this is the pros and they will jam that little waterbug into yesterday at the LoS. Last time I looked he isn't Brandon Marshall who is so big and powerful he controls the line and doesn't allow himself to be jammed or taken out of his routes. Just because Spiller was a great player in college doesn't mean that will translate to the NFL.

 

At this point I remain very skeptical about the offense for the upcoming season for the Buffalo Bills, I hope I'm proven wrong.

 

 

Classic glass is half-empty argument to offset the other glass is half-full arguments. It seems to me Chan and Buddy are going to wait to see what they have once the pads are on before pulling the trigger on any trades. At this point, you have to go with what they think. So whether or not Wood is ready, or Green can be a stop-gap or back up RT, or that Bell is ready or not is just not going to be answered until the banging starts. What makes me feel better is that unlike Jauron, players better be ready to pound it out in pads. We'll know early on who is a pretender and who is a gamer.

[Deep2Moulds46]

Last year when everyone was on the Jason Peters Jr. bandwagon for D. Bell, I kept saying how it worried me that he only threw 225 up 9 times at the combine. I realize that's not the end all-be all, and weight room doesn't translate to field performance, but Bell needed to become SO much stronger, ESPECIALLY in this division where the DE's he goes against are all pushing 300LBs.

 

I personally feel Jamon Meredith is better suited to be a left tackle in this division than Demetrius Bell. Bell may have a little more athleticism, but you can bull rush him back into the QB's face and he doesn't move anyone in the running game. The false starts, in my opinion, are correctable and forgivable for year-one. Now, if that repeats in year 2, then maybe we have a concentration/smarts issue, and then you have more to worry about than pure physical ability. I will just never believe Bell is strong enough to be an NFL starting offensive lineman....especially on the left side.

[....lybob]

Lets look at Bell in a realistic way without all the positive or negative hype

from wiki

Bell's high school had not fielded a football team, so prior to his attending Northwestern State, he had never played organized football. In the fall of 2005, he red-shirted the basketball season and began playing for the school's football team. He was initially placed in the position of defensive end. The following year, injuries struck the team's offensive line, and he was moved to the left tackle position. He earned second-team All-Louisiana honors that season.[4]

Bell made a bigger name for himself in his senior season of 2007, having focused solely on football. Remaining on the offensive line, he was named an All-Louisiana and an All-Southland Conference first-teamer. He also became an Associated Press All-American.[4]

 

if you have watched Bell you know on the plus side he has some nice athletic traits- good agility, balance, with the ability to mirror- it is also pretty impressive that he went from never having played organized football to winning some accolades.

 

but Bell has merely adequate height and weight, with barely adequate arm length- and his strength and technique were not adequate as of last year

 

my conclusion on Bell is that while it is not out of the realm of possibility that he will be an adequate to good LT, the odds are against him, especially coming off a knee injury.

[yungmack]

Freud called. He'd like to set up an appointment with you tommorrow at 10.

[thewildrabbit]

Classic glass is half-empty argument to offset the other glass is half-full arguments. It seems to me Chan and Buddy are going to wait to see what they have once the pads are on before pulling the trigger on any trades. At this point, you have to go with what they think. So whether or not Wood is ready, or Green can be a stop-gap or back up RT, or that Bell is ready or not is just not going to be answered until the banging starts. What makes me feel better is that unlike Jauron, players better be ready to pound it out in pads. We'll know early on who is a pretender and who is a gamer.

Someone at OBD seems to think that the O line didn't need any high priority upgrades last year or this year or they would have made some moves earlier during the draft.

 

Don't forget we were waiting all last off season for the Bills to replace Jason Peters and they never did, even when the pads went on. Face facts, they scrood the pooch again this year by not drafting numerous players to upgrade the line. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this new staff to realize they :censored:ed up.

 

Chan Gailey is under the delusion that he will get the Bills players to play harder for him then Jauron got them to, he couldn't be more wrong. Jauron was an ex player and a players coach and they loved him for it, and they played their proverbial hearts out for him week after week.

 

 

Like Michael Lombarbi stated on the NFL network, "the Bills are tough to play and easy to beat"

 

If the Bills were lacking anything during Jauron's era it was a proper offensive scheme, game planning and play calling from someone other then a rookie OC.

[Fixxxer]

Someone at OBD seems to think that the O line didn't need any high priority upgrades last year or this year or they would have made some moves earlier during the draft.

 

Don't forget we were waiting all last off season for the Bills to replace Jason Peters and they never did, even when the pads went on. Face facts, they scrood the pooch again this year by not drafting numerous players to upgrade the line. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for this new staff to realize they :censored:ed up.

 

Chan Gailey is under the delusion that he will get the Bills players to play harder for him then Jauron got them to, he couldn't be more wrong. Jauron was an ex player and a players coach and they loved him for it, and they played their proverbial hearts out for him week after week.

 

 

Like Michael Lombarbi stated on the NFL network, "the Bills are tough to play and easy to beat"

 

If the Bills were lacking anything during Jauron's era it was a proper offensive scheme, game planning and play calling from someone other then a rookie OC.

 

Or maybe they realize that the OL still needs an injection of talent but given that the HC is offensive minded he prefers to coach up the guys he has on offense right now for his first coaching year, with plans of adding more talent in the future via draft or FA.

Coach them up on offense, address the defense through the draft and FA.

 

We knew that this was not going to be fixed in one offseason so I understand the approach Nix and Gailey are taking.

[DrDawkinstein]

Centers have to be smart. But center is the most physically easy position to handle on the OL. It's harder against 3 - 4 defenses, but usually centers are just handling one side of a double-team on the NT on runs and limiting how far they're pushed into the backfield on passes.

 

Solid lines always have top-notch centers? You mean like Dan Koppen, the average center in NE*, which allowed 18 sacks and got 4.1 YPA? Or John Sullivan, the not very good center in Minny? Or Kevin Mawae, who used to be out of this world, but now is below average on Tennessee's very good line, which gave up 15 sacks and got 5.2 YPA? Or Jonathan Goodwin, a very average center on New Orleans' very good line, which gave up 20 sacks and got 4.5 YPA? The facts are that solid lines have top-notch centers ... sometimes. Centers have to be smart, but you can get by with a smart but decent center.

 

 

 

LT is the crucial position when it comes to keeping your quarterback healthy and uninjured. What you're saying sounds wonderful, but doesn't stand up to observation.

 

and i could point out a number of lines that have "ok" tackles but solid cores. heck, the Cardinals made it to the Super Bowl with an LT who was HORRIBLE on the Bills, and they were a passing team. Good interiors make your Tackles better. A great Tackle does not have the same effect on the rest of the line. It's simply a matter of covering ground and where the strength lies.

 

id also argue that Koppen is better than anything we've had at Center since Hull. And Mawae the same. both of those guys are very smart players, and youre correct, Center is more about smarts than physicality. just because the requirements are different doesnt mean one job is more important than the other.

 

my entire point was that if you have a great interior, you can get away with serviceable Tackles.

[Bill from NYC]

and i could point out a number of lines that have "ok" tackles but solid cores. heck, the Cardinals made it to the Super Bowl with an LT who was HORRIBLE on the Bills, and they were a passing team. Good interiors make your Tackles better. A great Tackle does not have the same effect on the rest of the line. It's simply a matter of covering ground and where the strength lies.

 

A great LT keeps an offense from having to keep a running back and/or tight end inside to seal off the blind side. Not so many humans are big, strong and agile enough to do so alone. This is why LTs go so high in round 1 year after year. It isn't an accident. If the interior was more important and harder to fill, we would be seeing Guards go in the top 5, but we do not.

 

Mike Johnson did well at LT for Alabama. They won the title. yet he was drafted as a guard. See where I am going. PLEASE, don't misunderstand.....I was literally thrilled that the Bills dradted Wood and Levitre last year. And again, unlike many others I think that Hangartner can be a very good center. He played next to rookies and garbage last year and held his own. He is very strong imo and will be a better player if the OGs hold up. Interior linemen are extremely important.

Still, it is very hard to get a standout left tackle. They are worth their weight in gold and teams other than the Bills won't give them up. You virtually NEVER see them traded away or even playing out their option.

Next year we will probably be drafting extremely early and will more than likely have the opportunity to draft one (or a qb). This year, because of the poor situation at both tackle spots, won't be pretty imo.

[Conch]

For an Oline we have Levitre and a busted up Wood. The rest is made up of maybe's. You will not win in the NFL with maybe's.

[thewildrabbit]

A great LT keeps an offense from having to keep a running back and/or tight end inside to seal off the blind side. Not so many humans are big, strong and agile enough to do so alone. This is why LTs go so high in round 1 year after year. It isn't an accident. If the interior was more important and harder to fill, we would be seeing Guards go in the top 5, but we do not.

 

Mike Johnson did well at LT for Alabama. They won the title. yet he was drafted as a guard. See where I am going. PLEASE, don't misunderstand.....I was literally thrilled that the Bills dradted Wood and Levitre last year. And again, unlike many others I think that Hangartner can be a very good center. He played next to rookies and garbage last year and held his own. He is very strong imo and will be a better player if the OGs hold up. Interior linemen are extremely important.

Still, it is very hard to get a standout left tackle. They are worth their weight in gold and teams other than the Bills won't give them up. You virtually NEVER see them traded away or even playing out their option.

Next year we will probably be drafting extremely early and will more than likely have the opportunity to draft one (or a qb). This year, because of the poor situation at both tackle spots, won't be pretty imo.

There are a dozens of posters that defend every move the Bills make either right or wrong, there are also dozens who think the Bills will be just fine with Wal-mart tackles. Those 5th & 7th round tackles come way cheaper then #1 picks, just the way Ebenezer likes them.