millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 I really think Notre Dame has lost an opportunity. Now with Herm being fired there does remain only two black head coaches at the highest college level. Notre Dame commendably stands for high standards of academics over athletic success first and with hiring made a stand to give equal opportunity at the highest levels. I can only imagine how baseball would be today if when Jackie Robinson first cam up to the big leagues and was faltering, Branch Ricky had not supported him and believed in him. Apart from greed and winning on the field first I don’t see another reason for firing Herm three seasons into a five year contract that others before him with given full opportunity, Herm deserved full opportunity and college football does suffer as consequence. It’s sad a major school did do what was right but did not have the gumption to stick with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Neither Willingham's hiring nor firing had to do with him being black. Isn't that what minorities want? To just be given the same chance to succeed or fail as anyone else. Notre Dame doesn't owe him a job. I don't think Willingham would have wanted to be kept around simply to be a token. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Back in the 20's ?????????? OK. 139963[/snapback] I told you they have a long memory there. I'm not kidding when I say this either. Every time there is talk of joining a conference some Notre Dame fans will bring up the fact that the Big Ten spurned them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 Neither Willingham's hiring nor firing had to do with him being black. Isn't that what minorities want? To just be given the same chance to succeed or fail as anyone else. Notre Dame doesn't owe him a job. I don't think Willingham would have wanted to be kept around simply to be a token. 141428[/snapback] It had much to do with a Black man getting a opportunity at a major school , the hiring at the time was given much aclaim as such at the time it was a example of a major school standing up doing right both in its stand on academics and opportunity for all , Notre Dame taking a lead in these most important aspects that just maybe other schools might follow. Much hand wringing has been done over the past number of years over the undue amount of import that sport play in our academic facilites. Its going to take the major football schools to make a stand on the import of education over sport to get this system under control , they had opportunity to stand for something that builds our culture, rather than conceed and become like the other football factories where winning come before academics and charactor. Three years into a program that those previous had got five is not the same opportunity. Hardly him given the full opportunity his contract was signed for is token anything. That there are only two black head coaches in major college football is shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 it had much to do with a Black man getting a opportunity at a major school , the hiring at the time was given much aclaim as such at the time it was a example of a majo school standing up doing right. Three years into a program that those previous had got five is not the same opportunity. 141443[/snapback] That's what it meant to the nation at large. To Notre Dame they simply hired the guy that they thought could do the job the best. And they shouldn't feel any added pressure to retain him simply because there aren't many black coaches across the country. Notre Dame isn't the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 That's what it meant to the nation at large. To Notre Dame they simply hired the guy that they thought could do the job the best. And they shouldn't feel any added pressure to retain him simply because there aren't many black coaches across the country. Notre Dame isn't the problem. 141465[/snapback] But they could be part of the solution.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 But they could be part of the solution.......... 141480[/snapback] They were when they hired him in the first place. My point being that if you want to make an issue of minorities not getting opportunities go talk to the Michigans, Ohio States, Auburns, Miamis, etc. of college football. Should Notre Dame, it's supporters, and fans be saddled with someone that they don't feel can get the job done simply to make college football look better? What's in it for them? In terms of race as I said I think Notre Dame has treated this situation exactly correct. They gave the guy a job and were genuinely excited about the fact that he could be the guy that could return them to greatness. For whatever reason that didn't work out. Time for them to go their seperate ways. Willingham will land on his feet. He's a great coach that happens to be black, not a great black coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 I alluded to branch ricky giving Jackie Robinson a opportunity and when Robinson at first had difficulty , Ricky still supported him and gave him time to work things out , what ricky new was that more than it was right for Black players play in major leagues, there were many fine black players who could play in major leagues , making our national game a better game. He stood alone in doing so and all in time benifited. Similarly with Notre Dame one the the nations most outstanding schools, they had opportunityto do the same in football regarding coaching, to give a man similar opportunity, give him the necessary support , in him having success the door being opening to many more black coaches where it isnt today, pointing to a time when all are truely given opportunity for there skill only. What is in it for Notre Dame in making such a stand is in facilitating opportunity for all and consequently more skillful coaches making the game better, just as when finally baseball started to become a game with opportunity for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 You make a good point about opportunity. But I think the comparison falls a bit flat after that. The door has already been opened and now that the color line has been crossed black coaches should be aspiring to be judged solely on the merits of their performance. Should Notre Dame have been more patient? Perhaps. But that is a high pressure situation and they are trying their best to not become a program that rests on their past merits. They want to return to preeminance. I truly believe, and perhaps I'm naiive, that had they believed that Willingham was the man that could bring them there then they would have continued on with him. For whatever reason, and I don't think we can be arrogant enough to think that we as fans ever have the full story, they felt they needed to go in another direction in order to save a sinking ship. I don't think it's fair to point to a program with as much national exposure as Notre Dame that has given a black coach the opportunity to prove himself. Willingham just didn't succeed this time. Maybe he's no Jackie Robinson. Maybe he never will achieve that level of greatness that few in sports do when they seperate themselves from the pack and distinguish themselves. I still think he has a lot to offer the right team at the right time. I guess Notre Dame just isn't that team right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 You make a good point about opportunity. But I think the comparison falls a bit flat after that. The door has already been opened and now that the color line has been crossed black coaches should be aspiring to be judged solely on the merits of their performance. Should Notre Dame have been more patient? Perhaps. But that is a high pressure situation and they are trying their best to not become a program that rests on their past merits. They want to return to preeminance. I truly believe, and perhaps I'm naiive, that had they believed that Willingham was the man that could bring them there then they would have continued on with him. For whatever reason, and I don't think we can be arrogant enough to think that we as fans ever have the full story, they felt they needed to go in another direction in order to save a sinking ship. I don't think it's fair to point to a program with as much national exposure as Notre Dame that has given a black coach the opportunity to prove himself. Willingham just didn't succeed this time. Maybe he's no Jackie Robinson. Maybe he never will achieve that level of greatness that few in sports do when they seperate themselves from the pack and distinguish themselves. I still think he has a lot to offer the right team at the right time. I guess Notre Dame just isn't that team right now. 141670[/snapback] - We disagree , I feel he was not given full opportunity others before him black coaches to this day are on a very short leash. They have given up in midstream. There are times it better to lose in the short term for the winning is greater down the road, this was a case of that in my opinion. There are many significant impications to this issue far above a better bcs standing..... Jackie Robinson would not have had the impact he did if not for the support he received. There is a huge problem here and it need be addressed I just wonder how long..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 - We disagree , I feel he was not given full opportunity others before him black coaches to this day are on a very short leash. They have given up in midstream. There are times it better to lose in the short term for the winning is greater down the road, this was a case of that in my opinion. There are many significant impications to this issue far above a better bcs standing..... 141709[/snapback] It's not black coaches. It's all coaches. Too much money involved for that to change, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 There is a huge problem here and it need be addressed I just wonder how long..... 141709[/snapback] So in your mind how long would have been a reasonable amount of time to show support? I watched as much as I could stomach of that USC game and what I saw was a team that hadn't progressed from where they were 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_eyedog_* Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 First off, Willingham isn't a "great " coach. Look at his past coaching records. He's a good person and his players graduated but he isn't a great coach. Bottom line is his team has been losing the last two years and losing big. If they were winning I guarantee he would still be at ND. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Fong Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 First off, Willingham isn't a "great " coach. Look at his past coaching records. He's a good person and his players graduated but he isn't a great coach.Bottom line is his team has been losing the last two years and losing big. If they were winning I guarantee he would still be at ND. 141746[/snapback] Yeah I realized that I was overstating when I called him great, but he's a good coach. I believe he'll be a coach for a long time to come. He did a good job at Stanford and if it had been most other schools people would have said he did pretty well at Notre Dame. But pretty good doesn't cut it at South Bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
millbank Posted December 1, 2004 Author Share Posted December 1, 2004 It's not black coaches. It's all coaches. Too much money involved for that to change, either. 141712[/snapback] That the import of winning has taken such a significance at the college level similar to professional level is a outrage, one we need be fighting tooth and nail to remove from our schools. Its time for the major academic institutions stand up and return to being educators. This pressure does consequent in wrong decisions as in Herms firing. I hear that, its how things are, and they will only get worse if we do nothing about it. Win now pay later... we need do better than that.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 That the import of winning has taken such a significance at the college level similar to professional level is a outrage, one we need be fighting tooth and nail to remove from our schools. Its time for the major academic institutions stand up and return to being educators. This pressure does consequent in wrong decisions as in Herms firing. I hear that, its how things are, and they will only get worse if we do nothing about it. Win now pay later... we need do better than that.......... 141787[/snapback] You'll get no argument from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts