ExiledInIllinois Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Wow!... This is such a touchy subject. Part of me says: "What's the harm?" Then the other part of me says: "I am not the one who lost anybody in the attack." This is a total trust issue of the likes we have never seen in our history. Again, what really can happen? Then you got the side who think that salt is being rubbed in their wounds... Which I can sympathize with. I say let it be built... But make the building respectful and unobtrusive (not sure what the plans are)... And remain vigilant (not to the point of irrationality or infringing on the rights of people)... God forbid anything happen on the radical front. Trust is the big word here. Trust that the radical factions can be controlled and will have no in roads into this institution.
drnykterstein Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 "This is America damnit. And in America when someone comes for your neighbor, for his Bible, or his Torah or his Athiest Manifesto, or his Quran you and I do what our fathers did and what our grandmothers did and what our founders did. You and I speak up."
1billsfan Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Moderate muslims do remain silent and it's not because we support the disgraceful events that transpired on that very tragic day of 9/11. The silence, in my case, is more of a feeling that I don't have to apologize for everything that someone or some group may do just because we share some of the same beliefs. Me and my family and friends have all assimilated to American culture and very much love this country. If we start taking away people's rights than the terrorists truly did win on 9/11. People should back the proposed mosque near ground zero for that very same reason. We can not allow the terrorists to win. We can not allow 9/11 to divide us as a people. That's what the crazies want and I'm not willing to give it to them. They (the terrorists) would like us to turn on one another so they can have more soldiers for their cause. Furthermore, suicide and any form of suicide is forbidden in Islam. Killing of innocent people is forbidden. Abuse of women is not tolerated and forbidden in Islam. Making someone convert by force is also forbidden. Just because some people practice these awful atrocities doesn't make it the rule in Islam. It is the exception. No people, race, creed, or gender is perfect and never will be. We must not allow the actions of few to represent a people as a whole. Personally, I have friends of all races, creeds, and color. I do not hate anyone and I do not hold groups of people responsible for the actions of few and I suggest you do the same. The cycle of hate must end or it will lead to the demise of the HUMAN race. Let the hate go, man, it's not worth it. I know that all other faiths have had shameful pasts, but the difference is that in todays world the pope would denounce a radical faction of terrorists if it were coming from his faith, rabbi's around the world would denounce a radical faction of terrorists if it were coming from their group. The fact that there is no one denouncing it in the muslim world makes me question why that is. If I did see this then I would probably be much more easily swayed and maybe even sympathetic. As for this mosque, did you know that one of the plane's landing gear went through this building? That makes it part of ground zero. The imam who's building it won't denounce hamas as a terrorist organization, he believes that America was partly responsible for 911. I am outraged at the insensitivity being shown here by the group wanting to build it. Yes, the mosque can be built, but at what cost to your faith? When the terror groups are using this mosque as a propaganda tool then will you feel that this was still a good idea? It will go from, "YEAY! We proved our point!", to "Wait, why do all these people hate us?" Where is the common sense? Where is the decency? It's wrong and it will have the opposite effect of bringing people together. If you want the hate to be let go then not building the mosque there would be a good start.
MarkAF43 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 If you want the hate to be let go then not building the mosque there would be a good start. By the same token, not building the mosque would promote hatred towards our government for not allowing them to have the same religious freedoms we allow others....
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I know that all other faiths have had shameful pasts, but the difference is that in todays world the pope would denounce a radical faction of terrorists if it were coming from his faith, rabbi's around the world would denounce a radical faction of terrorists if it were coming from their group. The fact that there is no one denouncing it in the muslim world makes me question why that is. If I did see this then I would probably be much more easily swayed and maybe even sympathetic. As for this mosque, did you know that one of the plane's landing gear went through this building? That makes it part of ground zero. The imam who's building it won't denounce hamas as a terrorist organization, he believes that America was partly responsible for 911. I am outraged at the insensitivity being shown here by the group wanting to build it. Yes, the mosque can be built, but at what cost to your faith? When the terror groups are using this mosque as a propaganda tool then will you feel that this was still a good idea? It will go from, "YEAY! We proved our point!", to "Wait, why do all these people hate us?" Where is the common sense? Where is the decency? It's wrong and it will have the opposite effect of bringing people together. If you want the hate to be let go then not building the mosque there would be a good start. thats more or less the point i was trying to make..
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Really?? You really think Sharia Law will be in effect here in the USA??? Really???? You can't be serious. Look man, ain't nobody taking away our bars, strip clubs, and casinos here in the US. I'll be one of the first to strap up arms and fight against that!!!!! yes and no... i don't expect the U.S. to be governed by Sharia law next year (socialism is more likely) but I think there are outside groups like the wahhabi Saudis trying to establish a foot hold of extreme muslim society in U.S. culture and will use our own civil liberties and the ACLU against America so they can further their extremist ideology. They want to have their seperate culture exclusive of American laws and society against the law of the land. It wont happen in a day or week, but there will be small groups with their sole purpose in life to try to advance their ideology in the western hemisphere and on your previous post you might have missed what i was trying to say but i have no problem with Islam or muslims, i think that moderate muslims do in fact share in many of the judeo-christian values, beliefs and ideals and are all very compatible to co-exist. what alarms me though is why the moderate mainstream muslims do not denounce the violence and call out the radicals and the bad Imams as twisting and perverting a peaceful religon for violence in the name of Allah? where is the outcry against a vocal violent minority group of muslims using the Koran and word of Allah in their interpuration to commit acts of violence and terror? just my .02 cents
1billsfan Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 By the same token, not building the mosque would promote hatred towards our government for not allowing them to have the same religious freedoms we allow others.... I heard today that there are over 100 mosques in the five boroughs of NYC. Given that, and the fact that NYC has the largest mass transit system in the world I feel like the religious freedoms argument is a very weak one. Making this statement is the old "cutting off your nose to spite your face" argument. Moving the mosque would be the biggest olive branch ever the muslims could hope to extend. Let's see what's more important. I'm guessing it's the making of a statement and building the mosque.
MarkAF43 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I heard today that there are over 100 mosques in the five boroughs of NYC. Given that, and the fact that NYC has the largest mass transit system in the world I feel like the religious freedoms argument is a very weak one. Making this statement is the old "cutting off your nose to spite your face" argument. Moving the mosque would be the biggest olive branch ever the muslims could hope to extend. Let's see what's more important. I'm guessing it's the making of a statement and building the mosque. Understood, and by the same argument, there is already a ton of hatred towards the west, if you will, that would be made a million times worse if we go against the foundations our country was built on, and tell them they can't build there, then the hatred grows, and now you have given them more soldiers for their "cause".... So is there really a winning solution in all of this?
DC Tom Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 So is there really a winning solution in all of this? Yes. Uphold the constitutional right specified in the First Amendment. The right to practice any religion shall not be abridged.
3rdnlng Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 That will never happen here, never. So don't worry about it. Sure, and the federal government could never fire the CEO of General Motors either.
1billsfan Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Understood, and by the same argument, there is already a ton of hatred towards the west, if you will, that would be made a million times worse if we go against the foundations our country was built on, and tell them they can't build there, then the hatred grows, and now you have given them more soldiers for their "cause".... So is there really a winning solution in all of this? If someone can be radicalized because public outrage in America help stop the building a mosque at ground zero, then that person would have no doubt found something else to radicalize themselves over. The winning solution is the imam finding a building a few more blocks away in a building where one of the 911 plane's landing gear did not fly through the roof and floors.
MarkAF43 Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 If someone can be radicalized because public outrage in America help stop the building a mosque at ground zero, then that person would have no doubt found something else to radicalize themselves over. The winning solution is the imam finding a building a few more blocks away in a building where one of the 911 plane's landing gear did not fly through the roof and floors. Is it really going to make a difference to move it a few blocks? people are going to get upset and worked up about that saying its still too close.... so how close is too close? Does it need to be built in Alaska? Maybe, Seattle? Fact is, freedom of religion is a huge part of what were founded on. I agree with DC Tom on this one... we should allow them to build.
GG Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 I heard today that there are over 100 mosques in the five boroughs of NYC. Given that, and the fact that NYC has the largest mass transit system in the world I feel like the religious freedoms argument is a very weak one. Making this statement is the old "cutting off your nose to spite your face" argument. Moving the mosque would be the biggest olive branch ever the muslims could hope to extend. Let's see what's more important. I'm guessing it's the making of a statement and building the mosque. I heard people saying that the opposition is not based on freedon of religion, assembly or other inalienably granted rights, but more of an issue for the local community to decide. Yet, the vast majority of the opposition has come from outside the 5 boroughs. Imagine that. Kind of like suggesting that placing the mosque in Outerbridge Staten Island is the same as keeping it at Park Place, Manhattan, where it's been for years.
DC Tom Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 The winning solution is the imam finding a building a few more blocks away in a building where one of the 911 plane's landing gear did not fly through the roof and floors. How far away is enough? Midtown? Harlem? New Hampshire? Is there some sort of official 9/11 Lower Manhattan Islam Exclusion Zone that's been published? By the way...there's Muslims working in the Pentagon. Scandal!
DC Tom Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Is it really going to make a difference to move it a few blocks? people are going to get upset and worked up about that saying its still too close.... so how close is too close? Does it need to be built in Alaska? Maybe, Seattle? Fact is, freedom of religion is a huge part of what were founded on. I agree with DC Tom on this one... we should allow them to build. Then you don't agree with me. I don't want to "allow" them to build, I want to defend and uphold the Constitution. I could give a **** where they build a mosque. But if you'd allow a church or synagogue there (which I'm sure most of the people against the mosque would have no problem with), then the ONLY justification for denying a mosque is simple, straightforward, grotesque bigotry.
RkFast Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Yes. Uphold the constitutional right specified in the First Amendment. The right to practice any religion shall not be abridged. Too bad nobody is trying to "abridge" anything, Tom. Thats weak, especially from you. Move the damned building TWO !@#$ing blocks, out of the "9/11 footprint", if you will. Then NOBODY has a right to B word. Is that so hard? Evidently....to this Imam, yes it is. So is ANY attempt on his part to build trust with this the members of the community that have reservations about what putting this building at this location really means in the eyes of the Muslim world. And *I*, along with many others, want to know why.
RkFast Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Then you don't agree with me. I don't want to "allow" them to build, I want to defend and uphold the Constitution. I could give a **** where they build a mosque. But if you'd allow a church or synagogue there (which I'm sure most of the people against the mosque would have no problem with), then the ONLY justification for denying a mosque is simple, straightforward, grotesque bigotry. bull ****. Total bull ****. And you know it. How can you even make this comparison?
DC Tom Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 bull ****. Total bull ****. And you know it. How can you even make this comparison? Because legally any religion has as much right as any other to build or use a structure at that location for worship. Total bull **** is pretending that treating religions differently somehow represents an American value.
DC Tom Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 Too bad nobody is trying to "abridge" anything, Tom. Thats weak, especially from you. Move the damned building TWO !@#$ing blocks, out of the "9/11 footprint", if you will. Then NOBODY has a right to B word. Is that so hard? Evidently....to this Imam, yes it is. So is ANY attempt on his part to build trust with this the members of the community that have reservations about what putting this building at this location really means in the eyes of the Muslim world. And *I*, along with many others, want to know why. You're an idiot. Everybody always has a right to B word. It's that pesky, awkward First Amendment thing again - the same one that allows a mosque to be built on that site.
RkFast Posted August 17, 2010 Posted August 17, 2010 You're an idiot. Everybody always has a right to B word. It's that pesky, awkward First Amendment thing again - the same one that allows a mosque to be built on that site. Youre taking the term "nobody has a RIGHT to B word" literally? Jackass.
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