Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 What is all this nancy-boy weeping and smarty-pants theorizing about "if we don't make the playoffs start JP" stuff dominating the board? The Bills fans I used to know showed up in snow storms to root for their guys no matter what their record was or their playoff prospects because they liked to see a tough team playing to win a tough game in a tough town. Now what I hear is all this cleverness about getting JP ready for next year, to "develop" him once we can't make the playoffs. Whatever happened to winning just to win? Whatever happened to pride? Whatever happened to wanting to just kick the ever loving !$!@#$ out of the other guy because that is what football is about? "But Mickey" you say, "we aren't *sniff*, *sniff*, going to the playoffs, waaaaaaaaa, why not get ready for next year, waaaaaaaaa". On the theory that since we won't make the playoffs our time is better spent getting ready for next year, why not throw in the towel on the remaining games to improve our draft position for next year? Why not rest every single veteran of any worth to avoid any injuries that could lose us a player for next year? If you think JP gives us a better chance to win right now and want him on the field for that reason, fine, I have no argument with you though I disagree. If you agree that right now he does not give us the best chance to win but should be on the field anyway to "develop" him for next year, I think you should seriously consider rooting for a team that is used to fair weather fans who shrivel up and turn to jelly at the first sign of adversity. The Dolphins, for example, are used to those kinds of fans and you would fit right in. The Bills fans I used to know liked to kick a$$ just for the pure pleasure of kicking a$$ even it wasn't for the greater good of making the playoffs because in the end, winning, all on its own, matters. If we are elimenated from the playoffs, I would like the team and its fans to have the same attitude against its remaining opponents as Captain Ahab had: From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.
VABills Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Mickey, glad to see you and I agree on something.
IDBillzFan Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Keep it up, Mickey. You make ICE sound rational. The entire problem with your theory is simply this. Up until now, we didn't KICK ass. We SUCKED ass. I appreciate how you feel a fan should go into a game believing we're gonna kick ass and take names and win one for the gipper, but we sucked enough in the beginning of the season to get knocked out of the playoffs. Them's the facts. Once you're out of it, you need to start evaluating your talent for next year to get a jump on the gun so we can do a better job of KICKING ass next year. I'm sorry this concept is foreign to you. And besides...how do you know we won't start kicking people's asses with JP at quarterback?
Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 Mickey, glad to see you and I agree on something. 139308[/snapback] Must be some as yet unidentified atmospheric disturbance altering the space-time continuum.
VABills Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Keep it up, Mickey. You make ICE sound rational. The entire problem with your theory is simply this. Up until now, we didn't KICK ass. We SUCKED ass. I appreciate how you feel a fan should go into a game believing we're gonna kick ass and take names and win one for the gipper, but we sucked enough in the beginning of the season to get knocked out of the playoffs. Them's the facts. Once you're out of it, you need to start evaluating your talent for next year to get a jump on the gun so we can do a better job of KICKING ass next year. I'm sorry this concept is foreign to you. And besides...how do you know we won't start kicking people's asses with JP at quarterback? 139316[/snapback] I believe what he said was, if fans want JP in there to help us win, then go for it. But if it is only to get him practice and the coaching staff doesn't feel he is the better choice then leave Drew in there. I agree with him. BTW, don't you have some diarhea to clean up?
VABills Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Must be some as yet unidentified atmospheric disturbance altering the space-time continuum. 139320[/snapback] But you know, now that I think about it this was my arguement on PPP. I said GB may not be the best choice, but if you don't think JK can do a better job then leave GB in. I was right then, let's see if you joined the right side in this debate. Sorry, I had to do it.
IDBillzFan Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 BTW, don't you have some diarhea to clean up? 139322[/snapback] What do you think I'm doing in this thread? All I'm saying is, if you're out of it, I'd prefer to see Losman play. I've already seen what Drew can do. And unless we plan on him being the starter next year, which I don't, then I think you need to get Losman in. If Drew is the starter next year, then fine, I suppose. But somehow I feel we're going into mini-camp with MM telling people that the starting quarterback position is open for competition, and if so, you need to give the new kid some real time playing experience when there is nothing on the line so you can execute some basic plays to get him going...much like that little roll out we saw last week.
Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 Keep it up, Mickey. You make ICE sound rational. The entire problem with your theory is simply this. Up until now, we didn't KICK ass. We SUCKED ass. I appreciate how you feel a fan should go into a game believing we're gonna kick ass and take names and win one for the gipper, but we sucked enough in the beginning of the season to get knocked out of the playoffs. Them's the facts. Once you're out of it, you need to start evaluating your talent for next year to get a jump on the gun so we can do a better job of KICKING ass next year. I'm sorry this concept is foreign to you. And besides...how do you know we won't start kicking people's asses with JP at quarterback? 139316[/snapback] On that theory, why not rest all the veterans to avoid injuries that would ruin our chances to win next year? Why not throw the games we have left so our second round pick is higher? You don't think that beating the Steelers last game of the season, arguably the best team in the league, would help the team attitude wise in the off season and going into next year? These are human beings, not cars you winter in the garage and just turn the key next summer to watch them fire up as if they didn't sit around for months doing nothing. These guys need to win as much as possible even if it doesn't matter as far as making the playoffs is concerned. They have pride, they want to believe they are going to be better next year. You don't achieve that by mailing it in once the playoff drive is over.
IDBillzFan Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 You don't think that beating the Steelers last game of the season, arguably the best team in the league, would help the team attitude wise in the off season and going into next year? Many of the veterans will still be starting next year, but the quarterback position (which is the focus of all the discussions) may not. Stop putting such a broad stroke and focus over the one position that is the core of this discussion: quarterback. That is the basis for your entire question, but you take a very specific situation and apply it to the entire team, and that's not a sound argument. So to answer your question above with another question...You don't think beating the Steelers last game of the season, arguably the best team in the league, with LOSMAN AT QUARTERBACK would help the team attitude-wise in the offseason and going into next year?
Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 But you know, now that I think about it this was my arguement on PPP. I said GB may not be the best choice, but if you don't think JK can do a better job then leave GB in. I was right then, let's see if you joined the right side in this debate. Sorry, I had to do it. 139333[/snapback] That is why I voted for JK, I thought he could do a better job than GW, simple as that. My opinon of both was not all that high. Here the question is simple, if MM thinks JP gives us the best chance of winning a game then by all means, start him. If he doesn't, then he should be on the bench. This isn't training camp. People are intellectualizing a game that is played more on emotion, courage, focus and attitude than on brains. Jim Kelly wasn't the smartest QB to ever play the game but he was likely the toughest and never gave up on a play, a game or a season. Thurman Thomas was no football prodigy but he was one ornery, irascible, never-say-die SOB. You play to win, all the time. You don't throw a round based on some hare-brained scheme to win some other fight sometime in the future. How would you like to be in a foxhole with a guy that wants to surrender without a fight just because he can't win the whole damn war in one skirmish or to rest himself for the next war?
Rubes Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 If we are elimenated from the playoffs, I would like the team and its fans to have the same attitude against its remaining opponents as Captain Ahab had: From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. 139306[/snapback] Crap, I always thought that quote was from Khan.
BillsGuyInMalta Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Crap, I always thought that quote was from Khan. 139353[/snapback] *uncomfortable silence* KHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNN!!!
Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 Many of the veterans will still be starting next year, but the quarterback position (which is the focus of all the discussions) may not. Stop putting such a broad stroke and focus over the one position that is the core of this discussion: quarterback. That is the basis for your entire question, but you take a very specific situation and apply it to the entire team, and that's not a sound argument. So to answer your question above with another question...You don't think beating the Steelers last game of the season, arguably the best team in the league, with LOSMAN AT QUARTERBACK would help the team attitude-wise in the offseason and going into next year? 139342[/snapback] If you think starting JP gives us the best chance at winning a game, fine, I have no problem with you or anyone advocating that he start. If you think that Drew gives us the best chance of winning but want to start JP anyway, I do have a problem with that kind of thinking. Why should any of those returning veterans care about winning a game we don't care enough about to start our best 11? You are the one advocating starting JP even if he does not give us the best chance of winning now inorder to better prepare for next year once we are out of the playoffs. Why do you limit the application of that reasoning to just JP? Wouldn't throwing the rest of the games improve our draft position so we can land better players in the draft and have a better shot at the playoffs next year? Wouldn't resting the veterans who we know are coming back anyway make sense? Why risk injury to a guy you know you need to start next year? Beating the Steelers will be hard enough without handicapping the team by starting a guy who hasn't earned a start by outperforming the starter in practice. I don't know why my position is so radical. Simply stated, the coaches should start whoever they think are the best 11 guys on the field because that is how you win football games and, last I checked, that is the goal every Sunday. I am willing to bet that there isn't a player in that locker room that would respect a decision to start someone who wasn't the best at their position because the fans need something to keep them interested once the playoffs are not a possibility because winning alone isn't interesting enough.
Guest Guest Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 What is all this nancy-boy weeping and smarty-pants theorizing about "if we don't make the playoffs start JP" stuff dominating the board? The Bills fans I used to know showed up in snow storms to root for their guys no matter what their record was or their playoff prospects because they liked to see a tough team playing to win a tough game in a tough town. Now what I hear is all this cleverness about getting JP ready for next year, to "develop" him once we can't make the playoffs. Whatever happened to winning just to win? Whatever happened to pride? Whatever happened to wanting to just kick the ever loving !$!@#$ out of the other guy because that is what football is about? "But Mickey" you say, "we aren't *sniff*, *sniff*, going to the playoffs, waaaaaaaaa, why not get ready for next year, waaaaaaaaa". On the theory that since we won't make the playoffs our time is better spent getting ready for next year, why not throw in the towel on the remaining games to improve our draft position for next year? Why not rest every single veteran of any worth to avoid any injuries that could lose us a player for next year? If you think JP gives us a better chance to win right now and want him on the field for that reason, fine, I have no argument with you though I disagree. If you agree that right now he does not give us the best chance to win but should be on the field anyway to "develop" him for next year, I think you should seriously consider rooting for a team that is used to fair weather fans who shrivel up and turn to jelly at the first sign of adversity. The Dolphins, for example, are used to those kinds of fans and you would fit right in. The Bills fans I used to know liked to kick a$$ just for the pure pleasure of kicking a$$ even it wasn't for the greater good of making the playoffs because in the end, winning, all on its own, matters. If we are elimenated from the playoffs, I would like the team and its fans to have the same attitude against its remaining opponents as Captain Ahab had: From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. 139306[/snapback] What happened to fans demanding more than mediocrity by allowing a GM that doesn't know his butt end from his face about football to continue to have the keys to the family sedan?
34-78-83 Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 What happened to fans demanding more than mediocrity by allowing a GM that doesn't know his butt end from his face about football to continue to have the keys to the family sedan? 139395[/snapback] Yeah, there's sure a lot of credibility to that profound statement
Mark VI Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 DB starts until the Bills are officially eliminated from the playoffs. Then it's JP's turn to get some experience. Sal Maiorana - Rochester D&C, said it perfectly this morning: "There is no question that Losman is the quarterback of the future, and that future is coming soon. Even if Bledsoe were to finish with a Joe Montana-like stretch at the end of the year, I believe this has to be his last season as the starter because Losman, a first-round pick, is the player who must become this team's leader. Until the Bills are officially eliminated from the playoff race, Bledsoe is the man. Once they're out, I say give the ball to Losman and start getting him ready for 2005. I like Drew and I'm glad he is playing better lately, but I'm not ready to sign on for another season of Bledsoe when there's a first-round gunslinger sitting on the bench ready to get his career under way. " We know Bledsoe can only take this team so far and has way too many limitations. He'll never change. Losman is the future and will get his chance once the Bills are officially out of the playoff run in 2004.
Mickey Posted November 30, 2004 Author Posted November 30, 2004 DB starts until the Bills are officially eliminated from the playoffs. Then it's JP's turn to get some experience. Sal Maiorana - Rochester D&C, said it perfectly this morning: "There is no question that Losman is the quarterback of the future, and that future is coming soon. Even if Bledsoe were to finish with a Joe Montana-like stretch at the end of the year, I believe this has to be his last season as the starter because Losman, a first-round pick, is the player who must become this team's leader. Until the Bills are officially eliminated from the playoff race, Bledsoe is the man. Once they're out, I say give the ball to Losman and start getting him ready for 2005. I like Drew and I'm glad he is playing better lately, but I'm not ready to sign on for another season of Bledsoe when there's a first-round gunslinger sitting on the bench ready to get his career under way. " We know Bledsoe can only take this team so far and has way too many limitations. He'll never change. Losman is the future and will get his chance once the Bills are officially out of the playoff run in 2004. 139430[/snapback] "No question that Losman is the quarterback of the future..." ??????? hmmmmmmm. I totally disagree with that statement based on the fact that none of us, Sal included, have any idea if this guy can play and until we do, we don't know if he is the QB of the future or the biggest bust in the history of the franchise. We are planning for him to be our QB of the future, that much is certain but whether or not he actually is, no one knows. We once planned for Todd Collins to be our QB of the future but that never happened, did it? We once planned for RJ to be our QB of the future and that never happened, did it? Fact is, whether or not JP is the QB of the future for this team is not only a question, it is the question for the next year or two. I agree that next year, this is likely JP's team, at least unless he is soundly thrashed by whatever QBs are on the roster next year in camp, even if it is Bledsoe doing the thrashing. Otherwise, he will get the benefit of the doubt and the starting job. What I disagree with is the idea that we should turn our remaining games into an extension of next year's preseason schedule by starting anything less than our best 11. There will be plenty of opportunities for JP to learn in camp next year without cashing in our chips for 5 games just because we aren't in the playoffs. This is the regular season, not training camp.
ICE Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 What is all this nancy-boy weeping and smarty-pants theorizing about "if we don't make the playoffs start JP" stuff dominating the board? The Bills fans I used to know showed up in snow storms to root for their guys no matter what their record was or their playoff prospects because they liked to see a tough team playing to win a tough game in a tough town. Now what I hear is all this cleverness about getting JP ready for next year, to "develop" him once we can't make the playoffs. Whatever happened to winning just to win? Whatever happened to pride? Whatever happened to wanting to just kick the ever loving !$!@#$ out of the other guy because that is what football is about? "But Mickey" you say, "we aren't *sniff*, *sniff*, going to the playoffs, waaaaaaaaa, why not get ready for next year, waaaaaaaaa". On the theory that since we won't make the playoffs our time is better spent getting ready for next year, why not throw in the towel on the remaining games to improve our draft position for next year? Why not rest every single veteran of any worth to avoid any injuries that could lose us a player for next year? If you think JP gives us a better chance to win right now and want him on the field for that reason, fine, I have no argument with you though I disagree. If you agree that right now he does not give us the best chance to win but should be on the field anyway to "develop" him for next year, I think you should seriously consider rooting for a team that is used to fair weather fans who shrivel up and turn to jelly at the first sign of adversity. The Dolphins, for example, are used to those kinds of fans and you would fit right in. The Bills fans I used to know liked to kick a$$ just for the pure pleasure of kicking a$$ even it wasn't for the greater good of making the playoffs because in the end, winning, all on its own, matters. If we are elimenated from the playoffs, I would like the team and its fans to have the same attitude against its remaining opponents as Captain Ahab had: From hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee. 139306[/snapback] LMAO! Ok well now that you have made your 'braveheart/Gladiator' speech all I can say is lighten up francis. Back to reality... If this team drops a 7th game, we are out of the playoffs. When this happens you start playing the guys that need the experience. BTW...you yourself are exactly what you dislike the most. Everyteam should have nothing less than SUPERBOWL in mind. That went breasts up when we went 0-4. Oh and Mikey, YES JP is our 'QB of the future'. When you draft a QB in the first round you just made him your franchise QB/QB of the future. That is the way it is, has always been done and will always be done. Unless you are much smarter than every GM/HC/Owner to ever do so.
stuckincincy Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Several objected to having Nate Clements return punts. Seems he has done well. Put the best team on the field. Football is a business, with paying customers who pay for a product. Spot duty, a series or two or three as the season winds down would be fine with me. The rap on JP - small conference, lack of maturity, run first and look second, etc, should be worked on - some game experience is useful. But throwing him in full-time just because he might be the future qb makes little sense to me. For every Roethlisburger, there are many more Akili Smiths and David Klinglers who ended up shell-shocked.
RkFast Posted November 30, 2004 Posted November 30, 2004 Nice post, Mick. But I have to ask.... Given the fact that every time this team is out of the playoffs and just playing out the string, the Satdium is almost ALWAYS no more than 60% full, what "die hard" fans are you talking about? Sorry..our fan base is great.....no doubt. But "die hard" is not something that they can be considered, given the attendance figures for games when the team is anything less than in contention.
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