Nice job, Phillies fan.

[HopsGuy]

First, a preface: I am a police officer. I have a Taser, a PR-24 baton, pepper spray, a gun, and a K9. I have been trained appropriately in the use of these tools, and have been exposed to the Taser and the pepper spray. I am also familiar with my agency's policies and procedures on the use of these tools.

 

Now...

 

I was at a football game when this happened in the parking lot.

 

Was this your department? If so, is it a cautionary tale in the use of appropriate force?

 

In your opinion, does the officer in this picture look to meet typical police physical fitness standards?

 

I'm of the opinion that the kid probably deserved what he got. He ignored the instructions of a police officer which probably included "Stop or you're gonna get tased." It appears that it was just stadium security that went after

. Plus he stopped when they got there probably winded from all those doughnuts.

[bbb]

I was hoping one of those video links in this thread would have been of Mike Curtis of the Colts destroying the field runner back in the day..........I think policy should be that you either get tased or you get tackled by an All Pro linebacker!

[Sig1Hunter]

I was at a football game when this happened in the parking lot.

 

Was this your department? If so, is it a cautionary tale in the use of appropriate force?

 

In your opinion, does the officer in this picture look to meet typical police physical fitness standards?

 

I'm of the opinion that the kid probably deserved what he got. He ignored the instructions of a police officer which probably included "Stop or you're gonna get tased." It appears that it was just stadium security that went after

. Plus he stopped when they got there probably winded from all those doughnuts.

 

No, that was not my department. But, I am familiar with the incident. It is a cautionary tale in a lot of things, particularly undercover operations. But, specific to this Taser conversation, I'm not sure how your question fits. If you could elaborate, maybe I could answer better for you.

 

As far as the picture goes, I am not aware of what Philadelphia PD's "standards" are. I would also add that the picture makes that guy look fat because his shirt is bellowed out from the wind and physical action. I know that for my agency, we have to meet a certain physical fitness level upon being hired and completing the academy, after that, its completely up to you to keep yourself in shape. Right, or wrong...

[thebug]

First, a preface: I am a police officer. I have a Taser, a PR-24 baton, pepper spray, a gun, and a K9. I have been trained appropriately in the use of these tools, and have been exposed to the Taser and the pepper spray. I am also familiar with my agency's policies and procedures on the use of these tools.

 

Now...

 

Please, find a source to educate yourself on topics other than the media. Your opinions on the Taser are clearly a result of the input of sensationalistic media. You have absolutely no idea what the legal justifications for Taser use are. You have no idea how the Taser works (My guess is you have heard how many volts are in a Taser shock, but don't know the amps. You probably also don't know why volts vs amps are important). Yet, you assert that the officer is fat, lazy, and is going to get sued. Well, I will reiterate that you are wrong.

 

"I would have eaten less doughnuts and caught the guy". Right. How many times have you chased down, tackled, and then tried to handcuff a resisting subject? Never, you say? Ok... it isn't as easy as you see on TV. Once you chase, and then tackle the guy, now you are on the ground. The last place that I want to be as a police officer is on the ground (unless I have to be). Being on the ground is a position of disadvantage. I want the subject to be on the ground, and I want to be standing or kneeling over him/her. Ok, now that we have tackled the person and are on the ground, we need to get the handcuffs on them. Most likely, they don't want to be handcuffed (since they just tried to run from you) and will be trying like mad to keep you from doing this. Now, we are on the ground rolling around and wrestling with the person. Now, it is easier for him to get my gun. It is harder for me to retain my gun. Therefore, it is easier for me to die. So, assuming that job #1 for me is to go home safely to my family after a long day's work, what am I going to do? If given the chance, and having the legal authority to do so, will I tase the bad guy and therefore put myself at a position of advantage and the bad guy at disadvantage, and virtually assure that I will be safe? Or, am I going to chance getting hurt and hurting the bad guy worse just so that some ignorant Buffalo Bills fan won't criticize me on a message board? I'll take the former, please....with a dozen doughnuts....

 

 

I'm sure all officers with a taser are also familiar their agency's policies and procedures on the use of them. Does that mean the use them in the proper way every time?

 

Actually I have been following the debate on taser usage for some time (since Robert Dziekanski was tased at the Vancouver airport) and have read plenty of articles with viewpoints from both sides (and not just sensational media). I don't profess to know everthing about tasers, but I do know when I see something that disturbs me, and that video did.

I'm not alone LA Times

 

Some quotes from the article:

 

"Last year, the American Medical Assn.'s Council on Science and Public Health reviewed the physiological effects of Tasers and deaths after Taser shocks by police. Based on information gathered from 1985 to March 2009, the study concluded that stun guns are used too frequently and "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly."

 

Mary Catherine Roper, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union in Philadelphia, echoed that, telling the AP she didn't understand why the officer used a Taser.

 

"How long can he really run around out there?" Roper said of the fan. "In this situation, he's not dangerous, he's not getting away."

 

 

 

In this situation you would have done exactly as this officer did? if not how would you have handled it?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I'm sure all officers with a taser are also familiar their agency's policies and procedures on the use of them. Does that mean the use them in the proper way every time?

 

Actually I have been following the debate on taser usage for some time (since Robert Dziekanski was tased at the Vancouver airport) and have read plenty of articles with viewpoints from both sides (and not just sensational media). I don't profess to know everthing about tasers, but I do know when I see something that disturbs me, and that video did.

I'm not alone LA Times

 

Some quotes from the article:

 

"Last year, the American Medical Assn.'s Council on Science and Public Health reviewed the physiological effects of Tasers and deaths after Taser shocks by police. Based on information gathered from 1985 to March 2009, the study concluded that stun guns are used too frequently and "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly."

 

Mary Catherine Roper, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union in Philadelphia, echoed that, telling the AP she didn't understand why the officer used a Taser.

 

"How long can he really run around out there?" Roper said of the fan. "In this situation, he's not dangerous, he's not getting away."

 

 

 

In this situation you would have done exactly as this officer did? if not how would you have handled it?

 

You're right. The cops should shoot him instead or beat him with billy clubs.

[Sig1Hunter]

I'm sure all officers with a taser are also familiar their agency's policies and procedures on the use of them. Does that mean the use them in the proper way every time?

 

Actually I have been following the debate on taser usage for some time (since Robert Dziekanski was tased at the Vancouver airport) and have read plenty of articles with viewpoints from both sides (and not just sensational media). I don't profess to know everthing about tasers, but I do know when I see something that disturbs me, and that video did.

I'm not alone LA Times

 

Some quotes from the article:

 

"Last year, the American Medical Assn.'s Council on Science and Public Health reviewed the physiological effects of Tasers and deaths after Taser shocks by police. Based on information gathered from 1985 to March 2009, the study concluded that stun guns are used too frequently and "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly."

 

Mary Catherine Roper, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union in Philadelphia, echoed that, telling the AP she didn't understand why the officer used a Taser.

 

"How long can he really run around out there?" Roper said of the fan. "In this situation, he's not dangerous, he's not getting away."

 

 

 

In this situation you would have done exactly as this officer did? if not how would you have handled it?

 

Firstly, I am not going to rely upon a bunch of doctors to tell a police officer that Tasers are used too often. Just like the general public, they have no knowledge of what my job entails. I would not pretend to tell these doctors how to remove an appendix. I would agree that Tasers "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly", mainly because this statement is incredibly vague and really cannot be disagreed with.

 

Secondly, the statements quoted by you from the ACLU are ridiculous. It goes to show how ignorant they are. He's not getting away? Really? So, we just let him run around until he tires himself out and sits down? The ACLU has an agenda - and, that agenda is not to educate itself on police procedure.

 

Yes, I would have done EXACTLY what that officer did in Philadelphia. This is a 100% justified use of the device. No doubt about it.

 

BTW- I do not pretend to ignore that there are improper uses of the Taser. I am merely stating that the threshold to be met for the use of the Taser is very low, something which much of the public (and apparently the ACLU) does not understand.

[HopsGuy]

No, that was not my department. But, I am familiar with the incident. It is a cautionary tale in a lot of things, particularly undercover operations. But, specific to this Taser conversation, I'm not sure how your question fits. If you could elaborate, maybe I could answer better for you.

 

My question wasn't specific to the use of Tasers. You said you were a police officer, and I noted you are from Orlando. I was just curious about the fallout from that incident. You answered my question. Thanks.

 

As far as the picture goes, I am not aware of what Philadelphia PD's "standards" are. I would also add that the picture makes that guy look fat because his shirt is bellowed out from the wind and physical action. I know that for my agency, we have to meet a certain physical fitness level upon being hired and completing the academy, after that, its completely up to you to keep yourself in shape. Right, or wrong...

 

That's disconcerting. Judging from this video, he looks out of shape, but that's just my opinion. Chasing skinny 17 year-olds around can make a lot of people look foolish.

[thebug]

Firstly, I am not going to rely upon a bunch of doctors to tell a police officer that Tasers are used too often. Just like the general public, they have no knowledge of what my job entails. I would not pretend to tell these doctors how to remove an appendix. I would agree that Tasers "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly", mainly because this statement is incredibly vague and really cannot be disagreed with.

 

Secondly, the statements quoted by you from the ACLU are ridiculous. It goes to show how ignorant they are. He's not getting away? Really? So, we just let him run around until he tires himself out and sits down? The ACLU has an agenda - and, that agenda is not to educate itself on police procedure.

 

Yes, I would have done EXACTLY what that officer did in Philadelphia. This is a 100% justified use of the device. No doubt about it.

 

BTW- I do not pretend to ignore that there are improper uses of the Taser. I am merely stating that the threshold to be met for the use of the Taser is very low, something which much of the public (and apparently the ACLU) does not understand.

 

 

Thank you for your candid answer. Maybe the problem that I have is with the threshold to be met for the use of the taser being very low. Just seems to me that it was not meant (or should not have been meant) for this type of application.

 

 

I think this man LINK would be considered an expert in the field. He says "public confidence issues have caused the vast majority of agencies to limit their Taser use to scenarios in which the suspect has demonstrated by action, word, or deed, their intention to use violence or force against the officer or another person. "

 

Now that article was from 2005 and maybe things have changed, but I just don't see this particular situation falling within that scope.

[John Adams]

Yes, I do believe they should have tackled him instead of using a taser.

 

A taser would not have prevented the Seles incident, they are not comparable.

 

And how in the !@#$ do the cops know this d-bag isn't about to do what the Seles guy did? Of course,, they don't! And that's why they use force to take him down. And why should they put themselves at risk in a fist fight? Bad guy gets tased. Good guy doesn't. That's a best case scenario.

[Sig1Hunter]

Thank you for your candid answer. Maybe the problem that I have is with the threshold to be met for the use of the taser being very low. Just seems to me that it was not meant (or should not have been meant) for this type of application.

 

 

I think this man LINK would be considered an expert in the field. He says "public confidence issues have caused the vast majority of agencies to limit their Taser use to scenarios in which the suspect has demonstrated by action, word, or deed, their intention to use violence or force against the officer or another person. "

 

Now that article was from 2005 and maybe things have changed, but I just don't see this particular situation falling within that scope.

 

I agree with everything that guy wrote! Dont use the Taser on passive resistors - check. Don't use it on secured subjects - check. Try not to use it on the very young or old - check. Don't overdo it - check. Taser is not an alternative to deadly force - check.

 

The issue is that you may see that statement quoted above differently than I do. Lets take the actions of the guy in Philly, for example. He was not passively resisting. He was actively resisting. This is important because this is the threshold that has to be crossed to get to intermediate weapons. He was running away from police and actively resisting their orders. To a police officer, and anyone with a critically thinking brain, this is an action/word/deed that he intends to do violence or use force against another. I do not have to wait until he actually goes up to a player on the field and starts punching him in the face. I do not have to KNOW what his intentions are, I just have to have a reasonable justification to believe that is what his intentions are.

[thebug]

I agree with everything that guy wrote! Dont use the Taser on passive resistors - check. Don't use it on secured subjects - check. Try not to use it on the very young or old - check. Don't overdo it - check. Taser is not an alternative to deadly force - check.

 

The issue is that you may see that statement quoted above differently than I do. Lets take the actions of the guy in Philly, for example. He was not passively resisting. He was actively resisting. This is important because this is the threshold that has to be crossed to get to intermediate weapons. He was running away from police and actively resisting their orders. To a police officer, and anyone with a critically thinking brain, this is an action/word/deed that he intends to do violence or use force against another. I do not have to wait until he actually goes up to a player on the field and starts punching him in the face. I do not have to KNOW what his intentions are, I just have to have a reasonable justification to believe that is what his intentions are.

 

 

I see a kid running in circles waving a towel over his head.

[BuffOrange]

I agree with everything that guy wrote! Dont use the Taser on passive resistors - check. Don't use it on secured subjects - check. Try not to use it on the very young or old - check. Don't overdo it - check. Taser is not an alternative to deadly force - check.

 

The issue is that you may see that statement quoted above differently than I do. Lets take the actions of the guy in Philly, for example. He was not passively resisting. He was actively resisting. This is important because this is the threshold that has to be crossed to get to intermediate weapons. He was running away from police and actively resisting their orders. To a police officer, and anyone with a critically thinking brain, this is an action/word/deed that he intends to do violence or use force against another. I do not have to wait until he actually goes up to a player on the field and starts punching him in the face. I do not have to KNOW what his intentions are, I just have to have a reasonable justification to believe that is what his intentions are.

 

If the cops were smart they would fast forward 18 hours and watch what the guy does/doesn't do on SportsCenter.

[Steely Dan]

First, a preface: I am a police officer. I have a Taser, a PR-24 baton, pepper spray, a gun, and a K9. I have been trained appropriately in the use of these tools, and have been exposed to the Taser and the pepper spray. I am also familiar with my agency's policies and procedures on the use of these tools.

 

Now...

 

Please, find a source to educate yourself on topics other than the media. Your opinions on the Taser are clearly a result of the input of sensationalistic media. You have absolutely no idea what the legal justifications for Taser use are. You have no idea how the Taser works (My guess is you have heard how many volts are in a Taser shock, but don't know the amps. You probably also don't know why volts vs amps are important). Yet, you assert that the officer is fat, lazy, and is going to get sued. Well, I will reiterate that you are wrong.

 

"I would have eaten less doughnuts and caught the guy". Right. How many times have you chased down, tackled, and then tried to handcuff a resisting subject? Never, you say? Ok... it isn't as easy as you see on TV. Once you chase, and then tackle the guy, now you are on the ground. The last place that I want to be as a police officer is on the ground (unless I have to be). Being on the ground is a position of disadvantage. I want the subject to be on the ground, and I want to be standing or kneeling over him/her. Ok, now that we have tackled the person and are on the ground, we need to get the handcuffs on them. Most likely, they don't want to be handcuffed (since they just tried to run from you) and will be trying like mad to keep you from doing this. Now, we are on the ground rolling around and wrestling with the person. Now, it is easier for him to get my gun. It is harder for me to retain my gun. Therefore, it is easier for me to die. So, assuming that job #1 for me is to go home safely to my family after a long day's work, what am I going to do? If given the chance, and having the legal authority to do so, will I tase the bad guy and therefore put myself at a position of advantage and the bad guy at disadvantage, and virtually assure that I will be safe? Or, am I going to chance getting hurt and hurting the bad guy worse just so that some ignorant Buffalo Bills fan won't criticize me on a message board? I'll take the former, please....with a dozen doughnuts....

 

Great read, thanks!

 

I was hoping one of those video links in this thread would have been of Mike Curtis of the Colts destroying the field runner back in the day..........I think policy should be that you either get tased or you get tackled by an All Pro linebacker!

 

 

 

I'm sure all officers with a taser are also familiar their agency's policies and procedures on the use of them. Does that mean the use them in the proper way every time?

 

Actually I have been following the debate on taser usage for some time (since Robert Dziekanski was tased at the Vancouver airport) and have read plenty of articles with viewpoints from both sides (and not just sensational media). I don't profess to know everthing about tasers, but I do know when I see something that disturbs me, and that video did.

I'm not alone LA Times

 

Some quotes from the article:

 

"Last year, the American Medical Assn.'s Council on Science and Public Health reviewed the physiological effects of Tasers and deaths after Taser shocks by police. Based on information gathered from 1985 to March 2009, the study concluded that stun guns are used too frequently and "may contribute to the death of suspects directly or indirectly."

 

Mary Catherine Roper, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union in Philadelphia, echoed that, telling the AP she didn't understand why the officer used a Taser.

 

"How long can he really run around out there?" Roper said of the fan. "In this situation, he's not dangerous, he's not getting away."

 

 

 

In this situation you would have done exactly as this officer did? if not how would you have handled it?

 

First, the intent with the stun gun is not to kill the subject. If it occasionally does, oh well. Don't disobey an officer and you won't get tased. What is so hard to understand about that? It seems you're making excuses for the bad guys.

 

How long do you suggest people should be allowed to run around on a field during a game should be? Just let 'em go til they're tired out?

 

How about this. Obey the law and there isn't a problem!!! You make it sound like the kid wasn't doing anything bad at all.

 

 

I see a kid running in circles waving a towel over his head.

 

You're aren't looking through the eyes of a cop or security guard. You might think you know what his intentions are but you don't know what his intentions are.

 

 

If the cops were smart they would fast forward 18 hours and watch what the guy does/doesn't do on SportsCenter.

 

[thebug]

Great read, thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

First, the intent with the stun gun is not to kill the subject. If it occasionally does, oh well. Don't disobey an officer and you won't get tased. What is so hard to understand about that? It seems you're making excuses for the bad guys.

 

How long do you suggest people should be allowed to run around on a field during a game should be? Just let 'em go til they're tired out?

 

How about this. Obey the law and there isn't a problem!!! You make it sound like the kid wasn't doing anything bad at all.

 

 

 

 

You're aren't looking through the eyes of a cop or security guard. You might think you know what his intentions are but you don't know what his intentions are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying let the kid go, I'm saying IMO that was excessive force. What did they do before the taser? They must have had a hard time getting these games completed with not being about to stop them. Funny this is the first time I have heard of this happening a a professional sporting event. How come they haven't been tasering people who do this kind of stuff for the past 8 years? This happens all the time, why is he the first to be tasered?

 

How you ever broken the law before? Jaywalked? speeding? Do you think a cop should have tasered you, just in case you were about to do something?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I'm not saying let the kid go, I'm saying IMO that was excessive force. What did they do before the taser? They must have had a hard time getting these games completed with not being about to stop them. Funny this is the first time I have heard of this happening a a professional sporting event. How come they haven't been tasering people who do this kind of stuff for the past 8 years? This happens all the time, why is he the first to be tasered?

 

How you ever broken the law before? Jaywalked? speeding? Do you think a cop should have tasered you, just in case you were about to do something?

 

Really? The dude was likely instructed to stop. He didn't comply, and he got tasered. I don't know about you, but when an officer tells me to do something, I do it because he's the law. I may not like it, but I do it.

[Just Jack]

Mary Catherine Roper, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union in Philadelphia, echoed that, telling the AP she didn't understand why the officer used a Taser.

 

"How long can he really run around out there?" Roper said of the fan. "In this situation, he's not dangerous, he's not getting away."

How long do you suggest people should be allowed to run around on a field during a game should be? Just let 'em go til they're tired out?

And that's part of the issue. If fans know they can run around as long as they want because security will just wait till they get tired, how many games do you think will get delayed by fans on the field?

 

 

Found this video while searching for the Baseball Coach getting attacked.....

Top 10 - Altercations with the Fans - The Sabres/Rob Ray are #5

[Phlegm Alley]

Found this video while searching for the Baseball Coach getting attacked.....

Top 10 - Altercations with the Fans - The Sabres/Rob Ray are #5

 

 

Great video. I hadn't seen a lot of those. I especially enjoyed the 1st base coach of the Blue Jays strangling the kid (who was about the same age as Voltron, the Phillies fan) who had run out on the field.

[The Poojer]

that's all you see????? Really????

 

I see a kid running in circles waving a towel over his head.

[thebug]

that's all you see????? Really????

 

 

Yep, just like I've seen hundreds of times before. All of them resolved without the use of a taser.

 

Oh, I also see a cop really pissed that he couldn't catch the kid.

 

EDIT: I wonder if the Phillies think it was necessary? LINK

[Sig1Hunter]

I'm not saying let the kid go, I'm saying IMO that was excessive force. What did they do before the taser? They must have had a hard time getting these games completed with not being about to stop them. Funny this is the first time I have heard of this happening a a professional sporting event. How come they haven't been tasering people who do this kind of stuff for the past 8 years? This happens all the time, why is he the first to be tasered?

 

How you ever broken the law before? Jaywalked? speeding? Do you think a cop should have tasered you, just in case you were about to do something?

 

 

Before the Taser, we beat people with sticks. Before we had sticks we punched and kicked the bad guys. Do you really want to go back to the old days? I don't. Technology has made law enforcement so much safer and efficient - even over the last 10 years. The Taser is another example.

 

I know you just didn't compare a criminal offense to a non criminal infraction to try to prove your point. If you intended to do so, you just showed how truly ignorant you are.