thewildrabbit Posted May 2, 2010 Posted May 2, 2010 So how do you explain the fact that with a ProBowl LT, and now without one, the Bills still end the season with the same results? It is a TEAM game and the team like a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. I'll take a stab at it, lets go back to the beginning of the Jauron era and look at what he did. In 2006 the team went 7-9 JP Losman threw for 3000 yards 19 TD's-14 INTs, drafted in 2004 and he broke his leg and spilt time with Drew Bledsoe- 2005 he spilt time with Kelly Holcomb- Losman was a work in progress. In 06 the team had RB Willis McGahee 325 rushes for 1247 yards. The O line in 05 was Jason Peters LT-Mike Gandy LG- Trey Teague C-Chris Villarrial RG-Bennie Anderson RT Then in 06 the O line was (LT-RT Jason Peters)-(LG-LT Mike Gandy)-C Melvin Fowler-(RG Duke Preston / Chris Villarrial) RT Terrance Pennington. If you notice the Bills tried to make a 7th rd pick start at right tackle, they moved Peters to RT and had Gandy at LT The O linemen stunk in 06 except Jason Peters. The Bills had a very experienced O line coach at that time named Jim McNally 27 years exp and was teaching a zone blocking scheme In 2006 draft the Bills selected Donte Whitner-#8- John McCargo #26-Ashton Yoboty#70-Ko Simpson#108 Kyle Williams #134 Brad Butler #143 Keith Ellison #178 Terrance Pennington #216 My take on the year is ...a still learning his craft 2nd year QB in JP and a weak run defense= 7-9 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Realizing the Bills O line was horrid save for Peters and they drafted mostly players for the secondary in 06, the FO and Jauron decided to go shopping for free agents for the O line. They signed Derrick Dockery & Langston Walker to big paydays for 07. All this did was make Jason Peters mad because two high priced scrubs were making more then he was, as he made the pro bowl. The 07 O line was Jason Peters LT-Derrick Dockery LG- Melvin Fowler C-Brad Butler RG- Langston Walker RT. The O line wasn't that bad and was a work in progress, but it still had weak links in C Melvin Fowler and RG Brad Butler. The Bills had 3rd year JP Losman- Rookie Trent Edwards at QB- Rookie Marshawn Lynch- Robert Royal at TE. 07 Draft- RB Marshawn Lynch #12- LB Paul Posluszny #34-QB Trent Edwards #92-RB Dwayne Wright #111-S John Wendling #184-TE Derrick Schouman #222-DE CJ as you #239 My take on the year is between the flip flopping of the QB's and the poor run defense the team went 7-9 again. O line was better but weak links at C and RT- Rookie play caller Turk Schonert called some really questionable plays, he had his QB's in constant shotgun --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the end of 07 experienced veteran OL coach Jim McNally retired and the Bills promoted from within and the line got worse. Dockery and Walker were bad choices to repair that line as both were under achievers while in Buffalo. Add to the fact they were being coached by a guy learning to do his job. Is it any wonder why Trent Edwards was leveled in 08 and concussed in Arizona with a rookie line coach calling protections The 08 O line was LT Jason Peters-LG Derrick Dockery- Duke Preston & Melvin Fowler C- Brad Butler RG-Langston Walker RT. 08 Draft #11 CB Leodis McKelvin #41 WR James Hardy- #72 DE Chris Ellis- #114 CB Reggie Corner- #132 TE Derek Fine- #147 OLB Alvin Bowen- #179 RB Xavier Omom-#219 Demetrius Bell-#224 WR Steve Johnson-#251 DB kennard Cox The Bills STILL had weak links on the O line, a disgruntled LT in Jason Peters and centers Preston and Fowler and G Butler. Walker and Dockery still over paid under achievers. The NY Jets game Kris Jenkins was TRIPLE TEAMED by the two guards and center and STILL got to the QB and disrupted the play The entire year pivoted around a rookie line coach, a head coach that was clueless about the offense and how to build one...a 2nd year play caller in Turk Schonert that made some really horrendous decisions during the year. and yet again a poor run defense= 7-9 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last season should still be fresh in your mind, but JIC. Idiot jauron fired his OC two weeks before the season started and Alex Van Pelt had to do 3 jobs, OC- play caller-QB coach. DJ cut the staring RT two weeks before the season opened and started with an entirely new O line, every player at every position. Bottom line...every year Jauron changed the players on the O line and it never did get better, other factors include changing the O line coach-play callers changing- no dominate blocking tight end. no dominate blocking full back. Bad game plans- bad play calling- bad schemes- bad players= losing seasons ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think the thing that bothers most Bills fans (me anyway) is the fact that we all watched the Jets with a new GM Mike Tannenbaum and HC Eric Manginni go out their first year and draft a LT and C and rebuilt their O line properly thru the draft. The Jets were in the playoffs again this year with a rookie QB. Then we see Bill Parcells join the Dolphins and his first pick is the #1 overall and a left tackle, when the team clearly needed a QB and could have taken Matt Ryan.Their first year under Parcells and they go to the playoffs with a castoff scrub QB. We were hoping the new Bills GM / HC would do the right thing and build the O line thru the draft like the Jets and Miami did, they didn't. We have seen Jauron draft 5th-7th round O linemen and they all failed.
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2010 Posted May 2, 2010 It is a TEAM game and the team like a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. I'll take a stab at it, lets go back to the beginning of the Jauron era and look at what he did. In 2006 the team went 7-9 JP Losman threw for 3000 yards 19 TD's-14 INTs, drafted in 2004 and he broke his leg and spilt time with Drew Bledsoe- 2005 he spilt time with Kelly Holcomb- Losman was a work in progress. In 06 the team had RB Willis McGahee 325 rushes for 1247 yards. The O line in 05 was Jason Peters LT-Mike Gandy LG- Trey Teague C-Chris Villarrial RG-Bennie Anderson RT Then in 06 the O line was (LT-RT Jason Peters)-(LG-LT Mike Gandy)-C Melvin Fowler-(RG Duke Preston / Chris Villarrial) RT Terrance Pennington. If you notice the Bills tried to make a 7th rd pick start at right tackle, they moved Peters to RT and had Gandy at LT The O linemen stunk in 06 except Jason Peters. The Bills had a very experienced O line coach at that time named Jim McNally 27 years exp and was teaching a zone blocking scheme In 2006 draft the Bills selected Donte Whitner-#8- John McCargo #26-Ashton Yoboty#70-Ko Simpson#108 Kyle Williams #134 Brad Butler #143 Keith Ellison #178 Terrance Pennington #216 My take on the year is ...a still learning his craft 2nd year QB in JP and a weak run defense= 7-9 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Realizing the Bills O line was horrid save for Peters and they drafted mostly players for the secondary in 06, the FO and Jauron decided to go shopping for free agents for the O line. They signed Derrick Dockery & Langston Walker to big paydays for 07. All this did was make Jason Peters mad because two high priced scrubs were making more then he was, as he made the pro bowl. The 07 O line was Jason Peters LT-Derrick Dockery LG- Melvin Fowler C-Brad Butler RG- Langston Walker RT. The O line wasn't that bad and was a work in progress, but it still had weak links in C Melvin Fowler and RG Brad Butler. The Bills had 3rd year JP Losman- Rookie Trent Edwards at QB- Rookie Marshawn Lynch- Robert Royal at TE. 07 Draft- RB Marshawn Lynch #12- LB Paul Posluszny #34-QB Trent Edwards #92-RB Dwayne Wright #111-S John Wendling #184-TE Derrick Schouman #222-DE CJ as you #239 My take on the year is between the flip flopping of the QB's and the poor run defense the team went 7-9 again. O line was better but weak links at C and RT- Rookie play caller Turk Schonert called some really questionable plays, he had his QB's in constant shotgun --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At the end of 07 experienced veteran OL coach Jim McNally retired and the Bills promoted from within and the line got worse. Dockery and Walker were bad choices to repair that line as both were under achievers while in Buffalo. Add to the fact they were being coached by a guy learning to do his job. Is it any wonder why Trent Edwards was leveled in 08 and concussed in Arizona with a rookie line coach calling protections The 08 O line was LT Jason Peters-LG Derrick Dockery- Duke Preston & Melvin Fowler C- Brad Butler RG-Langston Walker RT. 08 Draft #11 CB Leodis McKelvin #41 WR James Hardy- #72 DE Chris Ellis- #114 CB Reggie Corner- #132 TE Derek Fine- #147 OLB Alvin Bowen- #179 RB Xavier Omom-#219 Demetrius Bell-#224 WR Steve Johnson-#251 DB kennard Cox The Bills STILL had weak links on the O line, a disgruntled LT in Jason Peters and centers Preston and Fowler and G Butler. Walker and Dockery still over paid under achievers. The NY Jets game Kris Jenkins was TRIPLE TEAMED by the two guards and center and STILL got to the QB and disrupted the play The entire year pivoted around a rookie line coach, a head coach that was clueless about the offense and how to build one...a 2nd year play caller in Turk Schonert that made some really horrendous decisions during the year. and yet again a poor run defense= 7-9 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last season should still be fresh in your mind, but JIC. Idiot jauron fired his OC two weeks before the season started and Alex Van Pelt had to do 3 jobs, OC- play caller-QB coach. DJ cut the staring RT two weeks before the season opened and started with an entirely new O line, every player at every position. Bottom line...every year Jauron changed the players on the O line and it never did get better, other factors include changing the O line coach-play callers changing- no dominate blocking tight end. no dominate blocking full back. Bad game plans- bad play calling- bad schemes- bad players= losing seasons ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I think the thing that bothers most Bills fans (me anyway) is the fact that we all watched the Jets with a new GM Mike Tannenbaum and HC Eric Manginni go out their first year and draft a LT and C and rebuilt their O line properly thru the draft. The Jets were in the playoffs again this year with a rookie QB. Then we see Bill Parcells join the Dolphins and his first pick is the #1 overall and a left tackle, when the team clearly needed a QB and could have taken Matt Ryan.Their first year under Parcells and they go to the playoffs with a castoff scrub QB. We were hoping the new Bills GM / HC would do the right thing and build the O line thru the draft like the Jets and Miami did, they didn't. We have seen Jauron draft 5th-7th round O linemen and they all failed. Thanks for taking the time to write this absolutely brilliant post. What you described above was the blueprint used by Levy/Jauron on how to ruin a football team. They concentrated on drafting defensive backs and undersized players at other positions, this while staffing the OL with late round picks and/or free agents who sucked. What some seem to miss is that I liked this draft, other than the Spiller selection. I am glad they drafted a running back, but I think they could have picked a good one in the later rounds. When Ralph talks of adding "excitement" wrt Spiller he is doing so as a businessman. Again, I don't fully fault him for this because this is what he is, and he owns the football team. Nix was quoted as saying that Mr. Wilson is involved in everything. Imo there is no reason to not believe that he was heavily involved (as a businessman) in this pick. We are entering the 2010 season without a credible OT on the roster. Our prospect at LT was a 5th round draft pick and this doesn't paint such a pretty picture. I like what the way they drafted on the defensive side; perhaps next season they will address the gaping holes on offense. We can only hope.
EastRochBillsfan Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 In my opinion offensive philosophy/proper game planning/play calling can help a young O-line. The game plan Turk Shonert designed for the Patriots prior to his departure I have to give him credit. I think Shonert did a wonderful job with his first game plan of the season and in hindsight now I have to wonder If maybe DJ had left Shonert alone and allowed him to do his job, everything might have turned out differently. How do you know they stuck with his game plan? I never heard that. maybe keeping schonert would have helped a little bit. I didnt have too many problems with avp as compared to schonert. its the head coach who sucked the most. we still werent going anywhere with jauron. you saw how much better they played for perry. I'm expecting a bit more from gailey. Like I stated last off season in 09 with dickhead jauron as HC, its a win win situation for Bills fans. If what the new HC states is true and the Bills don't need superior O line play to win, then fine the Bills are in the playoffs and everyone is happy! Should the Bills go 1-15 and get next years #1 overall draft pick because the line can't block anyone again this year, Gailey gets fired and the Bills hire Marty and everyone is happy! That freaking stupid Bill Parcells down in Miami wasting a #1 overall pick on OLT Jake Long when all he really needed was a speedy RB...go figure. Cam Cameron got it all wrong the year before by drafting a speedy WR in Ted Ginn Jr, wow all he really needed to do was draft a speedy RB... simple, but huge mistake how can u compare jake long who was the best rated tackle with who the bills could have selected at 9 this year? its not the same thing. It was indefensible because they had bigger needs up front. In hindsight, he did not produce but other than this, in what way was this different from the Bills taking Spiller? because Spiller is WAY better than ginn. First of all, thanks for a well thought post. I happen to strongly disagree with the bold, but both of us are here for thoughtful discussion imo. Oddly enough, the positions you listed are almost idenntical to the 2010 Bills needs. The only difference I have with this list is that you specified LT. Imo RT is also a huge need whereas it appears that our RT will be an elderly Raider castoff, if in fact he survives training camp. If Spiller is half as good as many portray, certainly the possibility of a trade down offer did exist. Also, it is hard for me to believe that at the positions listed, there wouldn't be a player who will turn out to be FAR more productive than Whitner, who is after all a small and marginably productive safety. Whitner was a product of a senile, inept GM and a proven loser coach. Imo Spiller was selected as a result of a meddling, profit driven businessman who wants to sell jerseys and put "fannies in the seats.". I want to be wrong with this assessment, but it is just so clear that I truly am surprised that it isn't a common opinion. they obviously didnt want to trade down or werent offered enough to make that trade. They wanted a difference maker and someone that could score some points and make us exciting again. whats wrong with that? I, for one, will be a lot happier if we are at least fun to watch. And so what if the OWNER IS meddling? its his friggin team. he pays the bills, literally. I see nothing wrong with putting fannies in the seats. or with making us a more exciting team. But persoanlly I dont think he meddled at all. It was Nix's pic. He even said, "I wanted to give coach gailey a play maker." We'll never really know of course unless someone asks Ralph this question. But for him to meddle would be going against hiring a football gm. he could of just saved that money paid and make the pics if he was meddling. Not wishing the kid any harm, just thinking if the Bills utilize him on kickoffs-WR-RB and he gets injured, their entire strategy of him opening up the offense goes out the window. Now, if the Bills were to trade for Jared Gaither-Jammal Brown... or even pick up Flozell Adams I know I'd be thinking they actually stand a chance to be good this year. it's not just about offense, it's about scoring points and getting good field position and good chuncks of yardage. use him anyway he helps us. we have two other backs so he isnt going to get overworked. I really don't think you worry about him getting injured. anyone can get injured. Bill, with all due respect, maybe the reason the opinion isn't common is because it it is extremely unlikely, not to say wrong. You seem to have trouble imagining that anyone with any sense could possibly come to a different conclusion from you about the Bills needs or the best strategy for making the team better (I know, it's a common failing around here). So you resort to insisting that the Spiller choice was a result Ralph Wilson's call despite a great deal of evidence and reasoning to the contrary. Too many posters have quite respectfully demonstrated the opposite side of the case, that Nix and Gailey made this call, for good reasons--reasons that you don't agree with, but good nonetheless. You have been right over the years to emphasize the importance of drafting for the o-line, but it has become such a fixed idea for you that any other vision becomes a result of conspiracy or lunacy. I think you are right on the mark here Dr. K .
Steely Dan Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 All he needs is a hole and he will be gone. That's what she said!!!
BillsVet Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 What you described above was the blueprint used by Levy/Jauron on how to ruin a football team. They concentrated on drafting defensive backs and undersized players at other positions, this while staffing the OL with late round picks and/or free agents who sucked. I'm not one who subscribes to conspiracy theories, but if there's one constant this decade it's the myriad of skill players selected by 3 separate GM/front offices. The question is why would three separate regimes favor smaller players over lineman when the league demands you protect your QB and pressure the opposing one? TD used 1st or 2nd rounders in 5 years on Clements, Henry, Reed, McGahee, Evans, Losman, and Parrish. Then, Levy/Jauron in 4 drafts went with Whitner, Lynch, McKelvin, Posluszny, Hardy and Byrd. Now, Nix/Gailey have selected another RB in Spiller with their first pick. By my count, the Bills have had 23 picks in the first two rounds since 2001, of which 14 were non-lineman. It would be one thing if they had a decent DL or OL throughout that time and went with skill players, but that's not the case. This over-reliance on off the ball players is one of the big reasons why Buffalo has gone 58-86 this decade.
thewildrabbit Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 I'm not one who subscribes to conspiracy theories, but if there's one constant this decade it's the myriad of skill players selected by 3 separate GM/front offices. The question is why would three separate regimes favor smaller players over lineman when the league demands you protect your QB and pressure the opposing one? TD used 1st or 2nd rounders in 5 years on Clements, Henry, Reed, McGahee, Evans, Losman, and Parrish. Then, Levy/Jauron in 4 drafts went with Whitner, Lynch, McKelvin, Posluszny, Hardy and Byrd. Now, Nix/Gailey have selected another RB in Spiller with their first pick. By my count, the Bills have had 23 picks in the first two rounds since 2001, of which 14 were non-lineman. It would be one thing if they had a decent DL or OL throughout that time and went with skill players, but that's not the case. This over-reliance on off the ball players is one of the big reasons why Buffalo has gone 58-86 this decade. They kept drafting low character players at the RB position-Travis Henry-Willis McGahee- Marshawn Lynch. They keep needing to draft CB's because they refuse to pay Antoine Winfield-Nate Clements and even Jabari Greer and then keep drafting the wrong safety's Donte Whitner-Ko Simpson-Ashton Yoboty. Jaurons idea of filling out a roster is keep drafting for the same position year after year and hope to get lucky. Let's face facts, more then anything else this team has done nothing but decline since Bill Polian. It all starts and ends with the GM, lets hope Nix knows what he is doing. From my view I'm just a tad leery now because of the failure to address the OL and more specifically both tackle positions and center. Anthony Davis was there...Mike Iupati was there...Maurkice Pouncey was there...Brian Bulaga was there. Lets hope the Bills didn't draft another Travis-Willis-Marshawn
thewildrabbit Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 I'm not one who subscribes to conspiracy theories, but if there's one constant this decade it's the myriad of skill players selected by 3 separate GM/front offices. The question is why would three separate regimes favor smaller players over lineman when the league demands you protect your QB and pressure the opposing one? TD used 1st or 2nd rounders in 5 years on Clements, Henry, Reed, McGahee, Evans, Losman, and Parrish. Then, Levy/Jauron in 4 drafts went with Whitner, Lynch, McKelvin, Posluszny, Hardy and Byrd. Now, Nix/Gailey have selected another RB in Spiller with their first pick. By my count, the Bills have had 23 picks in the first two rounds since 2001, of which 14 were non-lineman. It would be one thing if they had a decent DL or OL throughout that time and went with skill players, but that's not the case. This over-reliance on off the ball players is one of the big reasons why Buffalo has gone 58-86 this decade. Upon further reflection... It does make one wonder if there isn't some edict coming from RW to NOT draft O Linemen in the first 5 rounds. Being old school....very old school, perhaps he doesn't want to pay his left tackle more then his QB. Then again he did backup a truck load of cash to Dockery and Walker, then they were clearly jettisoned once they showed they were not close to being elite. If he had paid Jason Peters more then Walker and Dockery ...then Peters might still be a Buffalo Bill. Can you imagine a content Peters at LT and Wood, Levitre at guards,(or even if they had traded back last year and drafted Michael Oher instead of Maybust) this year they trade back and get an extra second round pick and draft Pouncey at center or Bulaga at LT/RT, good lord they would have an awesome O line. My Take, perhaps in 02 (Tom Donahoe & Greg Williams choice) the drafting of OT Mike Williams at #4 and paying him all that signing bonus money and then watch him utterly fail... still burns someone.
tennesseeboy Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 That is true to a degree. From what I have seen of Spiller which consist of 3 games he played his Sr year. The impressive part of his game seems to be his ability to read the gaps and blocks. He always seem to make the right read. I didn't know he had sub 4.4 speed at the time. When you have speed your blockers don't have to hold the block as long so I agree with Nix. This is also true with the QB. I remember when we started Rob Johnson everyone screamed the O line sucked. When Rob got hurt and Flutie came in suddenly the O line was no longer an issue. Our O line will seem much better when we get quality decisive quarterbacking. Our O-line will get better when we sign, draft or trade for a better offensive line.
thewildrabbit Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 how can u compare jake long who was the best rated tackle with who the bills could have selected at 9 this year? its not the same thing. The Bills could have traded back in the draft both this year and last year once they saw that the top OT's were gone. They could have gotten extra picks and still drafted Michael Oher last season instead of a developmental DE who will take 2-3 years to develop, that is "IF" he ever develops. This year they could have gone to Anthony Davis at #9, or traded that pick and gotten more #2s like the Patriots do. They could have ended up with Brian Bulaga, Maurkice Pouncey, Mike Iupati and extra picks. What is so great about more #2 round draft picks is your getting high quality players at a substantially lower salary then a first rounder makes. Once you get past the top 5-6 elite players the talent level usually drops enough so you can successfully trade back and still do well. The 06 draft was a real clusterfk, they drafted the 56th rated player in Donte Whitner at #9, Jauron is gone and I wonder if his stupidness still permeates at OBD, time will tell.
loyalbillsfan Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 True, also the QB has to be able to read the defense quickly enough and make the right decision on who to throw the ball to. Edwards is still looking for Adrian Wilson every time he takes a snap. He just hasn't looked like the same QB after that hit and a few games later when he threw picks in the first quarter against Cleveland...after that he was really, really tentative, and obvious he had lost confidence. In his rookie year and the beginning of his second year, he made quick decisions and threw to receivers.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 He just hasn't looked like the same QB after that hit and a few games later when he threw picks in the first quarter against Cleveland...after that he was really, really tentative, and obvious he had lost confidence. In his rookie year and the beginning of his second year, he made quick decisions and threw to receivers. I think it's my turn to make this correction. Actually (and oddly) Trent looked brilliant in his first start after the Adrian Wilson hit. It was the home game against San Diego (Balloongate) and Trent played perhaps his best game as a pro. Immediately thereafter, he "shat" the bed.
Webster Guy Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 Complete lack of college production. I don't know much about Spiller but he definitely seems more versatile than the Ginn Goblin. Maybe they thought they were picking Ted Ginn SENIOR but Roger screwed up the cue card. RB's that can catch are much easier to get involved than little WR's. Ask Roscoe.
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