Green Lightning Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 Pass blocking gets better when Edwards..err a QB makes better decisions. 3 step drop you throw the ball, not hold it so you get sacked. Jeez, you gotta give the guy a chance to check down! Despite all the gnashing of teeth on the QB situation, Nix seems confident that a decent coach and a seasoned OC (same guy for us now) can put together an effective attack with what we have. If it works, I could care less who is taking the snaps.
puente Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 True, also the QB has to be able to read the defense quickly enough and make the right decision on who to throw the ball to. Edwards is still looking for Adrian Wilson every time he takes a snap. He prolly looks for him EVERYWHERE he goes!!!
oak tree 12 Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 Well, that's true. But the concern is PASS blocking... especially in his rookie season he will not be in a position to block much because on passing downs he could be in either slot,or set out wide or split in the backfield. in the begining they will not ask him to block much because they are going to want to get the ball in his hands!
Chilly Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 We are on the same page. I am not saying that Siller will not play better than Ginn. I am only suggesting that they were picked under similar circumstances for similar reasons. The similar reasons are true if you're looking at the draft in a bubble, that they could have whoever they wanted at #9. But, IMO, that's not an accurate way to view the draft. It's been widely spread around that the Bills would have taken one of two offensive linemen they thought worthy of the #9 pick, but they were taken. Whether that ends up being true is another question, but that doesn't mean that OL wasn't their top choice in the 1st round. The problem is that you need a Pro Bowl player and difference-maker at #9. Look at the Whitner pick - where Whitner was drafted, we needed him to have the impact of a Troy Polamalu. He obviously hasn't, and that means the Bills didn't get the value they needed from the pick. That doesn't mean the pick hasn't provided some value, it just hasn't had the impact a #8 player should. I'm not sure there was a player at one of the team need positions - QB, LT, NT Line that could have provided that value. The Bills didn't think so, from the press conferences and rumors I've heard. There was only one Tackle taken anywhere close to the Bills slot - #11 with Anthony Davis - and feelings were extremely mixed on him. Instead of reaching for someone who may not be a starter, the Bills went for Best Player Available. I'm okay with that. It's actually a huge improvement from the past, when the Bills took players like Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Brandon Albert - players that they apparently had highly rated, but passed up anyway. There's a big difference between passing up highly rated need players to draft a luxury pick, and passing up poorly rated need players to make sure you get full value from the draft slot you have. It's this reason that I think the drafts aren't comparable. Look at Miami's pick with Teddy Ginn. Back in 2007, Miami's needs were LT, QB, WR, LB. They picked #9 Overall, and needed a real difference maker at one of those positions. A player that was rated highly on pretty much everyone's draft boards with few question marks was available: Patrick Willis. Passing up Willis to take Ginn is similar to the Bills passing up on that O-linemen crop to pick Whitner - they're passing up highly rated players at need positions to pick a luxury pick.
RealityCheck Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 The similar reasons are true if you're looking at the draft in a bubble, that they could have whoever they wanted at #9. But, IMO, that's not an accurate way to view the draft. It's been widely spread around that the Bills would have taken one of two offensive linemen they thought worthy of the #9 pick, but they were taken. Whether that ends up being true is another question, but that doesn't mean that OL wasn't their top choice in the 1st round. The problem is that you need a Pro Bowl player and difference-maker at #9. Look at the Whitner pick - where Whitner was drafted, we needed him to have the impact of a Troy Polamalu. He obviously hasn't, and that means the Bills didn't get the value they needed from the pick. That doesn't mean the pick hasn't provided some value, it just hasn't had the impact a #8 player should. I'm not sure there was a player at one of the team need positions - QB, LT, NT Line that could have provided that value. The Bills didn't think so, from the press conferences and rumors I've heard. There was only one Tackle taken anywhere close to the Bills slot - #11 with Anthony Davis - and feelings were extremely mixed on him. Instead of reaching for someone who may not be a starter, the Bills went for Best Player Available. I'm okay with that. It's actually a huge improvement from the past, when the Bills took players like Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Brandon Albert - players that they apparently had highly rated, but passed up anyway. There's a big difference between passing up highly rated need players to draft a luxury pick, and passing up poorly rated need players to make sure you get full value from the draft slot you have. It's this reason that I think the drafts aren't comparable. Look at Miami's pick with Teddy Ginn. Back in 2007, Miami's needs were LT, QB, WR, LB. They picked #9 Overall, and needed a real difference maker at one of those positions. A player that was rated highly on pretty much everyone's draft boards with few question marks was available: Patrick Willis. Passing up Willis to take Ginn is similar to the Bills passing up on that O-linemen crop to pick Whitner - they're passing up highly rated players at need positions to pick a luxury pick. Hell of a nice breakdown brother.
thewildrabbit Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 I'm not complaining that they drafted Spiller, in fact before the draft I had pointed out he made sense as the best player available if the top O linemen were already gone, search my previous posts. What my problem is... the new dufas head coach thinks the O line will magically improve with a speedy RB, and that he gets some of you guys to agree with him. The player they drafted in the 5th round may turn out to be a Jared Gaither type who was drafted by the Ravens in the 5th round, OTOH he may be a project and take 2 years to fully develop, who really knows at this point . Meanwhile ...we already know Bell wasn't very good as a starter and he suffered a severe ACL tear ending his season. The fact that the team hasn't bolstered the LT position with a high value player is very disconcerting to me So the Bills are going into the 2010 season with a 5th round project and a guy we already know stinks at LT coming off a bad knee injury.
thewildrabbit Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 The similar reasons are true if you're looking at the draft in a bubble, that they could have whoever they wanted at #9. But, IMO, that's not an accurate way to view the draft. It's been widely spread around that the Bills would have taken one of two offensive linemen they thought worthy of the #9 pick, but they were taken. Whether that ends up being true is another question, but that doesn't mean that OL wasn't their top choice in the 1st round. The problem is that you need a Pro Bowl player and difference-maker at #9. Look at the Whitner pick - where Whitner was drafted, we needed him to have the impact of a Troy Polamalu. He obviously hasn't, and that means the Bills didn't get the value they needed from the pick. That doesn't mean the pick hasn't provided some value, it just hasn't had the impact a #8 player should. I'm not sure there was a player at one of the team need positions - QB, LT, NT Line that could have provided that value. The Bills didn't think so, from the press conferences and rumors I've heard. There was only one Tackle taken anywhere close to the Bills slot - #11 with Anthony Davis - and feelings were extremely mixed on him. Instead of reaching for someone who may not be a starter, the Bills went for Best Player Available. I'm okay with that. It's actually a huge improvement from the past, when the Bills took players like Leodis McKelvin over Ryan Clady, Jeff Otah, and Brandon Albert - players that they apparently had highly rated, but passed up anyway. There's a big difference between passing up highly rated need players to draft a luxury pick, and passing up poorly rated need players to make sure you get full value from the draft slot you have. It's this reason that I think the drafts aren't comparable. Look at Miami's pick with Teddy Ginn. Back in 2007, Miami's needs were LT, QB, WR, LB. They picked #9 Overall, and needed a real difference maker at one of those positions. A player that was rated highly on pretty much everyone's draft boards with few question marks was available: Patrick Willis. Passing up Willis to take Ginn is similar to the Bills passing up on that O-linemen crop to pick Whitner - they're passing up highly rated players at need positions to pick a luxury pick. Dunno about you but I'm happy Miami took Ginn over Willis The Bills reached on Whitner, he was the 56th rated player on the boards at the time, but the Bills NEEDED a safety. Now that was a reach...drafting a player with a second round rating and drafting him 8th, if that wasn't bad enough they move into round one again and take a 3rd-4th round guy in John McCargo and draft him 26th. Yea, tell me about drafting Aaron Maybin who is a 3 year developmental project, who had one good trait ...speed with only one move, run the arc, and one year as a starter in college.The guy may never make the transition to OLB because of his lack of knowledge and coverage skills. They could have taken Michael Oher... oh, but he wasn't rated as high...
thewildrabbit Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 If you want to have a reasonale discussion about offensive line play, you cannot always base your entire opinion on the subject off of interpreted ratings from profootballfocus.com. I can just as easily post a link to footballoutsiders.com that says that Buffalo had the 12th-best run blocking OL in the NFL. Here: http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol Which would lead me to believe--if I were the type to base my opinion off of someone else's ratings--that Buddy Nix's comments are 100% accurate with regard to Spiller. Put an explosive RB behind an OL who's run blocking ranks in the top 1/3 of the league and I bet the running game improves, wouldn't you say? No, I wouldn't say... Spiller won't make the Bills a better pass blocking team, which is what they desperately need to improve, more specifically the QB's blind side needs to be upgraded. Fred Jackson is an elusive runner and was able to shed blocks and make defenders miss, his ability to make yardage after the initial hit is what allowed him to become the starter and do so well. His 1000 yard+ season is more of a tribute to his abilities then the Bills O line IMO. My take on drafting Spiller is that they killed two birds with one stone,they needed a WR opposite Lee Evans and they got a RB that can play in the slot, play outside, line up at TB-RB-HB in that they got another great RB in the Fred Jackson mold, only faster 4.33 Footballfocus breaks down individual play and footballoutsiders breaks down the teams play, as a team the Bills O line looked better running the ball then passing because of the play of Fred Jackson. The NFL has become a passing league and the Bills need to pass block better to compete in the AFC East.
Steely Dan Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 This is a very frustrating line of thought that so many fans get caught up in. Each player's performance rises, falls, or plateaus based upon their own unique circumstances. How can you say a line with 2 rookies, a young LT, a new coaching staff and philosophy will be just as bad as it was under different circumstances? It doesn't make any sense. How dare you speak common sense on this board! Line was bad last year, in large part, because injuries prevented continuity. You have to pick up a guy off the street on Monday and start him the next Sunday odds are breakdowns will happen everywhere. First couple games against N.E. and TB the line did okay. Yeah, even Bell. This is exactly what I'm talking about, BillsVet. Statements like the one above hurt your credibility because you don't mention: The starting left tackle was cut less than one week before the season opener. Four linemen who started during the season finished on injured reserve. Due to injuries there were nine different starting line combinations during the season. Due to injuries, eleven different linemen started games for the Bills. Center Geoff Hangartner was the only lineman to play every game at the same position. The Bills 2009 Week One offensive line had only 91 combined career starts. That number was the lowest in the NFL with the next most inexperienced team having 66 more starts. Despite the injuries and inexperience and lack of a passing attack, the Bills still managed to rush for 1867 yards, which was 16th best in the league and averaged 4.4 yards a carry for 8th best. The O-line only allowed a toal of of 37 rushes for negative yards which was 12th lowest in 2009. The Bills had a questionable offensive scheme, and a SEVERE rash of injuries, and very inexperienced linemen who were put in a position to fail. You ignore these facts when you state that the O-line will be as bad as last year. ^^^^^^^^^^What they said. That is definitely how they're similar, and I share your concerns that this pick could backfire. But I think CJ is a MUCH safer pick. 600 caries in college, serious production in every facet of offense and special teams, ZERO fumbles! The track records are completely different. Ginn was a glorified punt returner with bad hands. I don't know where you get the zero fumbles number from this is from his CBS draft page statistics. According to this he fumbled 15 times in college and lost 8 of them. Fumbles Season....TEAM .........G...FUMB........FUMBLOST 2006-07 Clemson...13.......5.................3 2007-08 Clemson...13.......2.................1 2008-09 Clemson...12.......3.................2 2009-10 Clemson...14.......5.................2 TOTAL.................52.....15.................8 It is because of those facts that most fans realize the Bills needed to upgrade both tackle and center positions. The Bills addressed the RT by signing Cornell Green ...another washed up free agent who has been with 5 teams the past 12 years, 48th out of 77. slightly better then what they had, still nothing significant Both Wood and Bell are coming off severe season ending injuries... G Levitre rated 74 out of 84 (LG) 14 G Wood 65 out of 84 (RG)10 LT Bell 74 out of 77 (LT)8 RT Jonathon Scott (LT) 7 (RT)3 -59 out of 77 RT Kirk Chambers (LT)1 (RT) 11 57 out of 77 C Hangartner 27 out of 34 Nobody on the Bills line last season played well, each and every player was rated near the worst at their positions and Bell was about the worst LT in the NFL last season. Derrick Dockery was cut by the Bills and rejoined the Redskins and his play 24 out of 84 was far superior then any Bills player last season. Richie Incognito was better then any Bills player and they let him go to Miami, makes no sense. Sorry, but the O line was Buffalo's weakest area by far, and they neglected it again this year in the draft. All I see is a team setting themselves up to fail, just like last season. Incognito was signed by Miami and given a $25,000 signing bonus. I think there is a good chance he's cut in camp. He may be a good player but he's obviously somebody that the vast majority of teams don't want. A Jake Long caliber OL was not available when we picked. Ted Ginn was a great college player, but probably won't amount to much in the NFL. I think Spiller will be very good and is something to build on. When you aren't a player or two away, reaching for a player in the draft can set you back several years- like we have been doing for a decade This is the typical line of draft bitching on this board. Why did they take ___________ when ___________ was still on the board!! That's why they can't draft. In a couple of years it could've been; Why did they take Anthony Davis/Brian Bulaga when CJ Spiller was still on the board? Dunno about you but I'm happy Miami took Ginn over Willis The Bills reached on Whitner, he was the 56th rated player on the boards at the time, but the Bills NEEDED a safety. Now that was a reach...drafting a player with a second round rating and drafting him 8th, if that wasn't bad enough they move into round one again and take a 3rd-4th round guy in John McCargo and draft him 26th. Yea, tell me about drafting Aaron Maybin who is a 3 year developmental project, who had one good trait ...speed with only one move, run the arc, and one year as a starter in college.The guy may never make the transition to OLB because of his lack of knowledge and coverage skills. They could have taken Michael Oher... oh, but he wasn't rated as high... All good examples of the Bills passing up better players to fill a need. That's what Nix didn't do this draft and now some people think it's a stupid way to draft.
300yrds Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 the problem with the OL is that nobody respects the QB the offense enough to make a play. Send the house because the ball wont be more than 5-8 yrds off the line anyways. TE decision making, or possibly the scheme/playbook has been our biggest woe on that side of the ball. You cant make a judgement on the OL untill you get teams to respect you as a threat. Not saying the line is great, we just seem to be shooting ourselves in teh foot with it is all.
PushthePile Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 No, I wouldn't say... Spiller won't make the Bills a better pass blocking team, which is what they desperately need to improve, more specifically the QB's blind side needs to be upgraded. Fred Jackson is an elusive runner and was able to shed blocks and make defenders miss, his ability to make yardage after the initial hit is what allowed him to become the starter and do so well. His 1000 yard+ season is more of a tribute to his abilities then the Bills O line IMO. My take on drafting Spiller is that they killed two birds with one stone,they needed a WR opposite Lee Evans and they got a RB that can play in the slot, play outside, line up at TB-RB-HB in that they got another great RB in the Fred Jackson mold, only faster 4.33 Footballfocus breaks down individual play and footballoutsiders breaks down the teams play, as a team the Bills O line looked better running the ball then passing because of the play of Fred Jackson. The NFL has become a passing league and the Bills need to pass block better to compete in the AFC East. 1. Spiller out of the backfield or in the slot can punish a defense and hurt an aggressive blitz. His talents need to be accounted for and indirectly that threat will hurt the opponents ability to attack. 2. In the past you have said that no QB could perform behind this o-line, which was kind of foolish but many of your points tend to be exaggerations. Now, your new analysis is that any success had in the running game is a tribute to Jackson and not the o-line? Recap: QB gets sacked = o-line is so bad, no QB could produce RB gains yards = o-line is so bad, but RB's supreme effort overcame it Gotta watch those agenda based observations, Rabbit. 3. The NFL is more of passing league than ever before but there are still many ways to win this league. Pass protection is obviously a major question mark going into this season but I'm optimistic about the zone-blocking scheme. The new approach might fit our players better and let's face it, this is going to be running team. Until a competent NFL QB (maybe Brohm or Brown?) is added to the roster we should be a running team.
Bill from NYC Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 Look at Miami's pick with Teddy Ginn. Back in 2007, Miami's needs were LT, QB, WR, LB. They picked #9 Overall, and needed a real difference maker at one of those positions. A player that was rated highly on pretty much everyone's draft boards with few question marks was available: Patrick Willis. Passing up Willis to take Ginn is similar to the Bills passing up on that O-linemen crop to pick Whitner - they're passing up highly rated players at need positions to pick a luxury pick. First of all, thanks for a well thought post. I happen to strongly disagree with the bold, but both of us are here for thoughtful discussion imo. Oddly enough, the positions you listed are almost idenntical to the 2010 Bills needs. The only difference I have with this list is that you specified LT. Imo RT is also a huge need whereas it appears that our RT will be an elderly Raider castoff, if in fact he survives training camp. If Spiller is half as good as many portray, certainly the possibility of a trade down offer did exist. Also, it is hard for me to believe that at the positions listed, there wouldn't be a player who will turn out to be FAR more productive than Whitner, who is after all a small and marginably productive safety. Whitner was a product of a senile, inept GM and a proven loser coach. Imo Spiller was selected as a result of a meddling, profit driven businessman who wants to sell jerseys and put "fannies in the seats.". I want to be wrong with this assessment, but it is just so clear that I truly am surprised that it isn't a common opinion.
thewildrabbit Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 First of all, thanks for a well thought post. I happen to strongly disagree with the bold, but both of us are here for thoughtful discussion imo. Oddly enough, the positions you listed are almost idenntical to the 2010 Bills needs. The only difference I have with this list is that you specified LT. Imo RT is also a huge need whereas it appears that our RT will be an elderly Raider castoff, if in fact he survives training camp. If Spiller is half as good as many portray, certainly the possibility of a trade down offer did exist. Also, it is hard for me to believe that at the positions listed, there wouldn't be a player who will turn out to be FAR more productive than Whitner, who is after all a small and marginably productive safety. Whitner was a product of a senile, inept GM and a proven loser coach. Imo Spiller was selected as a result of a meddling, profit driven businessman who wants to sell jerseys and put "fannies in the seats.". I want to be wrong with this assessment, but it is just so clear that I truly am surprised that it isn't a common opinion. This move is not RW, this choice has Chan Gailey all over it, remember him talking about drafting a "waterbug" type player before the draft, he got his "waterbug" Spiller was not a bad choice, the guy is a playmaker and the Bills were lacking that area,all they have is Fred Jackson and Lee Evans. Like I alluded to earlier, he is an explosive player at WR-slot-RB. Just think of lining him up at WR and go from there, the opposing defense will need to drop back into coverage just to stop the big play. This should open up the running game a great deal as they won't be able to stack the box in fear of getting burned by Spiller on the outside,and it should help open up the passing game to a degree theoretically! If the opposing defense jams Spiller at the line and double-triple teams him and rolls coverage to him, it could easily shut him down, all they gotta do is lock him up for 3 seconds and the play is over. Now considering the team didn't get a premier LT they will have less time to make reads and deliver the ball no matter who is the QB. My problem is, the choices after Spiller don't include a LT until round 5 and there they took a developmental player... who may or may not ever become a decent LT. So all the Bills have at LT is Bell, who is coming off a torn ACL.
PushthePile Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 First of all, thanks for a well thought post. I happen to strongly disagree with the bold, but both of us are here for thoughtful discussion imo. Oddly enough, the positions you listed are almost idenntical to the 2010 Bills needs. The only difference I have with this list is that you specified LT. Imo RT is also a huge need whereas it appears that our RT will be an elderly Raider castoff, if in fact he survives training camp. If Spiller is half as good as many portray, certainly the possibility of a trade down offer did exist. Also, it is hard for me to believe that at the positions listed, there wouldn't be a player who will turn out to be FAR more productive than Whitner, who is after all a small and marginably productive safety. Whitner was a product of a senile, inept GM and a proven loser coach. Imo Spiller was selected as a result of a meddling, profit driven businessman who wants to sell jerseys and put "fannies in the seats.". I want to be wrong with this assessment, but it is just so clear that I truly am surprised that it isn't a common opinion. If the Bills were motivated by ticket sales, they would have drafted a QB. This argument especially lost steam when the Bills passed on Jimmy Clausen twice.
thewildrabbit Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 Not wishing the kid any harm, just thinking if the Bills utilize him on kickoffs-WR-RB and he gets injured, their entire strategy of him opening up the offense goes out the window. Now, if the Bills were to trade for Jared Gaither-Jammal Brown... or even pick up Flozell Adams I know I'd be thinking they actually stand a chance to be good this year.
Dr. K Posted May 1, 2010 Posted May 1, 2010 Imo Spiller was selected as a result of a meddling, profit driven businessman who wants to sell jerseys and put "fannies in the seats.". I want to be wrong with this assessment, but it is just so clear that I truly am surprised that it isn't a common opinion. Bill, with all due respect, maybe the reason the opinion isn't common is because it it is extremely unlikely, not to say wrong. You seem to have trouble imagining that anyone with any sense could possibly come to a different conclusion from you about the Bills needs or the best strategy for making the team better (I know, it's a common failing around here). So you resort to insisting that the Spiller choice was a result Ralph Wilson's call despite a great deal of evidence and reasoning to the contrary. Too many posters have quite respectfully demonstrated the opposite side of the case, that Nix and Gailey made this call, for good reasons--reasons that you don't agree with, but good nonetheless. You have been right over the years to emphasize the importance of drafting for the o-line, but it has become such a fixed idea for you that any other vision becomes a result of conspiracy or lunacy.
Bill from NYC Posted May 2, 2010 Posted May 2, 2010 You have been right over the years to emphasize the importance of drafting for the o-line, but it has become such a fixed idea for you that any other vision becomes a result of conspiracy or lunacy. I understand how I give off this impression. I also do however hope that in our lifetime the Bills will field a pair of high quality offensive tackles, let alone a pair that doesn't suck. If this happens, the Bills will be a good football team. Until then, the losses will continue, and history backs this contention.
apuszczalowski Posted May 2, 2010 Posted May 2, 2010 This is a very frustrating line of thought that so many fans get caught up in. Each player's performance rises, falls, or plateaus based upon their own unique circumstances. How can you say a line with 2 rookies, a young LT, a new coaching staff and philosophy will be just as bad as it was under different circumstances? It doesn't make any sense. yes it does, it makes perfect sense Bills go into FA and don't sign a FA LT that has a name people have heard of on ESPN. They don't g out and trade for a LT that people have heard of on ESPN. The Bills don't draft a LT in the 1st or 2nd rounds of the draft that Mel or Mort have in their mocks. The Bills only go out and sign a RT that was not re-signed by his previous team, and since his previous team sucked, he sucks. Therefore, The Bills o-line is no better and will continue to suck this year cause no one on ESPN is talking about how the Bills entire o-line is going to the Pro Bowl this year before the season is even played.
apuszczalowski Posted May 2, 2010 Posted May 2, 2010 I understand how I give off this impression. I also do however hope that in our lifetime the Bills will field a pair of high quality offensive tackles, let alone a pair that doesn't suck. If this happens, the Bills will be a good football team. Until then, the losses will continue, and history backs this contention. So how do you explain the fact that with a ProBowl LT, and now without one, the Bills still end the season with the same results?
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