For all you Ralph haters

[birdog1960]

Once, and only once, I bought a burger at Burger King. It was so nauseating I threw it away and never again ate at BK. However, in the 30 years since then, I haven't obsessed on BK and I don't post "I hate Burger King" screeds on the Web. I don't know who runs the company, could care less what its latest gimmick is, and just generally never think about it unless someone suggests we stop there for something to eat.

 

So...for those of you who find the whole Bills experience and history to be one of inferior product, who find the owner a nauseating cheapskate who could screw up a glass of water, who think the new GM and coaching staff are ancient incompetents, who apparently think the latest draft sucks, and who predict yet another lousy season...why are you still hanging around here? Toss the "burger" in the trash, walk away, forget about the Bills and get on with your lives.

this is a silly analogy. as someone with season tickets in the early years, I always hoped that rw would see the light. I was willing to invest emotionally and monetarily on that hope and the promise of better things to come. rw obliquely promising improvement is not a new phenomenon. you can't choose where you grow up and you would be considered downright disturbed growing up in wny and not being a bills fan then. there are thousands of places to get a good burger and i would venture to guess that some people get them at older, inferior restaurants for the memories. even though they make this choice, is it not their right to complain that it aint what it used to be? BK unlikely makes many peoples list in that regard but at least there you're always gonna get exactly what you expect and what they advertise. so you keep buying the bills bad burgers and i'll keep complaining about them til they improve. btw, have you ever written a bad product review on amazon or do you only write good ones?

[Delete This Account]

Man, I find it seriously creepy the way he consistently refers to him as "Mr. Wilson". Oh well, I'm sure it's just some way to show how hip and respectful he is of his elders, or some such.

yes, i do respect Mr. Wilson.

 

So yeah, you "refuted" my arguments as to why Ralph Wilson is a total failure as owner of the Buffalo Bills, and is a laughing stock around the league. But yet you did it without really providing any content.

oh really?

 

let's go point by point:

-- Ralph Wilson was rich before he established the Bills, and would've been rich without them.

 

Complete speculation. I say he would have been a space alien if he didn't found the Buffalo Bills.

how is this speculation. it's fact.

 

-- Never been willing to pay top dollar for coaching talent, sure. But he's paid big money on players. So how does that make him a miser?

 

So you are agreeing that he is a miser, and has never paid top dollar for coaching talent. The suggestion that he's paid "big money" on players is really not true, though. We can list off myriad examples of former Buffalo Bills who landed large free agent contracts because the Bills wouldn't pony up "top dollar". While the Bills certainly are not the Kansas City Royals of NFL payroll, neither are they amongst the top spending teams and haven't approached the salary cap in many years. They also do not fully take advantage of every available salary cap dollar (see Cash To The Cap below) as some teams do. Does it guarantee success? No. But you simply cannot argue against the assertion that Ralph Wilson is frugal at best, and a greedy miser at worst. Collecting a monstrous annual salary, while not being willing to pay top dollar for coaching talent. That just screams of a man who wants to win at all costs.

T.O. Lee Evans. Takeo Spikes. Schobel. Dockery.

Kudos to Nate Clements for getting the reaching a big contract with the 49ers, but really, has he dramatically improved that team? The Redskins have been among the NFL's biggest spenders under Dan Snyder: And they've won how many playoff games? I see the Albert Haynesworth deal paid off for them.

And if you're bringing up Peerless Price, well, the Falcons sure didn't get value from that deal.

As for Pat Williams, that was a major loss, but one that falls on the shoulders of Tom Donahoe.

 

-- Buddy, I don't know what lunatic fringe you're talking about, because, in retrospect, most of the owners have moved to Wilson's so-called fringe. (Hint: It's why there might not be an NFL season in 2011).

 

See 6-Year Collective Bargaining Agreement signed in March 2006. Only Buffalo and Cincinnati voted against it, with Ralph Wilson providing these memorable quotes:

 

"I didn't understand it," said Buffalo's Ralph Wilson. "I'm not a dropout ... or maybe I am. I didn't understand it."

right, and you conveniently forget what some where saying about Mr. Wilson a few years later when owners started questioning the deal they got themselves into. the fact that they opted out of the deal can be construed to be somewhat of a validation for how the Bills voted.

 

-- The deal the Bills brokered with Rogers is proving to be a huge windfall for the Bills, and a deal I think Rogers might not have signed based on their failure to meet their initial high hopes. I mean, hell, $9 million a game is a steep price. Sure, you make the claim that it's for money, money which the team can't generate out of cash-dry Western New York.

 

Huge windfall for the Bills, in terms of money going to line Ralph's pockets. Just above you concede that Ralph isn't willing to pay top dollar for coaching talent (read: isn't willing to put full financial resources into making the team succeed), but yet is eager to willfully accept a COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE by forfeiting home-field advantage for 12.5% of each seasons' home games. Shameful. Other owners might be misers, but at least they don't obviously sabotage the success of their team by giving away home games. This is just one step beneath selling one game a year to the highest bidder and taking a forfeit. Would that be acceptable as well?

based on how poorly the Bills have played in their first two regular season games in Toronto, i doubt they would've won at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

 

-- If Mr. Wilson invented the phrase "cash to the cap," then he should've patented it, because there's a lot more teams nowadays following that "cash to the cap" lead.

 

Well, if other teams wish to follow the example of one of the historically worst performing franchises in major sports, I guess they are free. We should be proud that we coined a new miserly term!

and yet, why do you single out Mr. Wilson for being the lone, so-called miser?

 

-- Third-tier city? That's a little tough, isn't it?

 

You said yourself how depressing it was driving through the West Side. Buffalo is drying up and population has been declining for decades. Perhaps Third-tier is even sugarcoating it. Let us not be blind to that fact.

i'm not moving.

 

The fact of the matter is that by any objective measure of ON THE FIELD success, the Buffalo Bills have been a complete failure under Ralph Wilson's ownership. If we move that discussion to "Mr. Wilson's" business acumen, he is by any account a resounding success. We have fueled that success with our loyal patronage of the Buffalo Bills. We also bear the burden of their competitive failure. Owner gets rich, fans suffer through decades of terrible product. If this isn't the true measure of the success of an owner, I can hardly imagine what is.

 

But hey, at least he didn't move the team! Then he might be a billionaire, instead of merely a better-part-of-a-billionaire.

i would hesitate to speak in absolutes. they have not been "a complete failure." far from it. you simply choose to cherry pick certain nuggets that seem like facts and hold them up to be so.

 

jw

[yungmack]

When Art Modell was getting older and had some cash flow problems he brought in a minority owner, Bishotti, and worked out in advance a first option to buy. When it came time for Modell to sell the team it was done in a very seamless way. When Wayne Huizanga (sic) got tired of owning a NFL franchise in Miami he brought in a minority buyer and arranged in advance a first option to buy. When he was ready to sell it was done in a very quick and efficent way. When Abe Polin the original owner of the Wizards in the NBA was getting old and had some health issues he made arrangements way in advance to give the first option to buy to Ted Leonsis, a minority owner in the Wizards. Abe Polin even worked out an arbitration mechanism just in case there were problems in completing the deal after he passed. When the owner died and after a relatively short time the sale transaction was made with little complication.

 

All the above stated deals were known to the public prior to their executions. Ralph has always run a very tight and closed operation. To put it mildly the Bills' business culture is very insular. I'm sure you understand why my cynic antennae is on heightened alert over Ralph Wilson's succession plan. The owner is the owner and can do whatever he wants with his property regardless what the public thinks. When you are nearly 92 yrs old and not willing to publicly state your succession intention that in itself makes me very queasy. Knowing the owner as I think I know him makes me even more nervous.

There are custom insurance/annuity policies that are written for situations such as taxes upon death, and companies that specialize in them. It's possible Wilson has one in place. If he doesn't, then maybe he is a knucklehead.

[akm0404]

yes, i do respect Mr. Wilson.

 

 

oh really?

 

 

how is this speculation. it's fact.

 

 

T.O. Lee Evans. Takeo Spikes. Schobel. Dockery.

Kudos to Nate Clements for getting the reaching a big contract with the 49ers, but really, has he dramatically improved that team? The Redskins have been among the NFL's biggest spenders under Dan Snyder: And they've won how many playoff games? I see the Albert Haynesworth deal paid off for them.

And if you're bringing up Peerless Price, well, the Falcons sure didn't get value from that deal.

As for Pat Williams, that was a major loss, but one that falls on the shoulders of Tom Donahoe.

 

 

right, and you conveniently forget what some where saying about Mr. Wilson a few years later when owners started questioning the deal they got themselves into. the fact that they opted out of the deal can be construed to be somewhat of a validation for how the Bills voted.

 

 

based on how poorly the Bills have played in their first two regular season games in Toronto, i doubt they would've won at Ralph Wilson Stadium.

 

 

and yet, why do you single out Mr. Wilson for being the lone, so-called miser?

 

 

i'm not moving.

 

 

i would hesitate to speak in absolutes. they have not been "a complete failure." far from it. you simply choose to cherry pick certain nuggets that seem like facts and hold them up to be so.

 

jw

 

Wilson certainly had enough money to buy the Bills when he did, but (without being able to look at his balance sheet of course), I'm speculating that the vast, vast, vast majority of his personal wealth stems from the Buffalo Bills.

 

As for the handful of examples you have of the Bills paying "top dollar" for talent, you too are just handpicking a couple examples out of a much, much, much larger pool. Watch any NFL game, and you'll see former Bills making it good somewhere else. Clements, Winfield, Williams, Greer, Peters, the list goes on. But even more so than the talent that the Bills have lost over the years, think of the talent that they have not added for financial reasons. Every off season, you can pretty much just pencil in the Bills as being the losers in free agency. Yeah, they signed TO to a tiny 1 year deal (relative to the free agents that sign real multi-year contracts). You can point out an example or two of teams that overpaid for a free agent, but you can't ignore the HUNDREDS of examples of teams who have added key personnel via free agency that have propelled them to championships. Except not in Buffalo, because we don't really do that. Look at the number of players this year alone that could have helped the Bills that signed elsewhere. Probably a combination of us being such a terrible landing spot for anyone (which Ralph Wilson is largely to blame for), and not being willing to open our wallets despite there being literally NO SALARY CAP. Yes, that is being cheap. Also, placing the blame for our countless free agent departures and non-signings onto Donahoe or some other employee is silly. Ralph put him there. Ralph has the final say on player contracts. Come on now.

 

On to the CBA. The owners opting out of the end of the CBA is absolutely not an indictment of Ralph Wilson's opposing vote in 2006. That is ludicrous. The deal was signed in '06 with every intention that it would be opted out of this year. Everyone knew it. Everyone expected it.

 

On to Toronto. Saying that the Bills are so terrible that they wouldn't have even won at home only serves to validate the point that I made - that it is more likely for a team to win with home field advantage than without. Willfully giving up this COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE for cash considerations is shameful. Frankly, it seems almost unethical. You didn't answer my query as to whether or not you feel that it would be a bad move for an owner to sell losses to other teams for cash. What if the Bills were willing to forfeit one of their games against the Jets for 100 million dollars? I mean, that'd be great for the organization. That's a ton of money. How can it be acceptable to purposely place your team at an increased chance of losing for cash money, but have it not be ok to sell losses? This is still really crazy to me.

 

Ralph Wilson isn't the lone miser in the NFL. There are several bad owners that doom their teams to futility and irrelevance. How does the existence of other bad owners make Ralph's terrible performance more acceptable?

 

And finally, I'm glad you aren't moving. I don't live in Buffalo, but do live in a declining community. I like it here too.

 

Having whatever personal respect you have for Mr. Wilson is great. I simply just can't see how anyone can defend his competence with regard to fielding a consistently winning product. Or perhaps you, like Mr. Wilson, place all of the stock in just a whole bunch of bad luck.

[Delete This Account]

Wilson certainly had enough money to buy the Bills when he did, but (without being able to look at his balance sheet of course), I'm speculating that the vast, vast, vast majority of his personal wealth stems from the Buffalo Bills.

 

As for the handful of examples you have of the Bills paying "top dollar" for talent, you too are just handpicking a couple examples out of a much, much, much larger pool. Watch any NFL game, and you'll see former Bills making it good somewhere else. Clements, Winfield, Williams, Greer, Peters, the list goes on. But even more so than the talent that the Bills have lost over the years, think of the talent that they have not added for financial reasons. Every off season, you can pretty much just pencil in the Bills as being the losers in free agency. Yeah, they signed TO to a tiny 1 year deal (relative to the free agents that sign real multi-year contracts). You can point out an example or two of teams that overpaid for a free agent, but you can't ignore the HUNDREDS of examples of teams who have added key personnel via free agency that have propelled them to championships. Except not in Buffalo, because we don't really do that. Look at the number of players this year alone that could have helped the Bills that signed elsewhere. Probably a combination of us being such a terrible landing spot for anyone (which Ralph Wilson is largely to blame for), and not being willing to open our wallets despite there being literally NO SALARY CAP. Yes, that is being cheap. Also, placing the blame for our countless free agent departures and non-signings onto Donahoe or some other employee is silly. Ralph put him there. Ralph has the final say on player contracts. Come on now.

 

On to the CBA. The owners opting out of the end of the CBA is absolutely not an indictment of Ralph Wilson's opposing vote in 2006. That is ludicrous. The deal was signed in '06 with every intention that it would be opted out of this year. Everyone knew it. Everyone expected it.

 

On to Toronto. Saying that the Bills are so terrible that they wouldn't have even won at home only serves to validate the point that I made - that it is more likely for a team to win with home field advantage than without. Willfully giving up this COMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE for cash considerations is shameful. Frankly, it seems almost unethical. You didn't answer my query as to whether or not you feel that it would be a bad move for an owner to sell losses to other teams for cash. What if the Bills were willing to forfeit one of their games against the Jets for 100 million dollars? I mean, that'd be great for the organization. That's a ton of money. How can it be acceptable to purposely place your team at an increased chance of losing for cash money, but have it not be ok to sell losses? This is still really crazy to me.

 

Ralph Wilson isn't the lone miser in the NFL. There are several bad owners that doom their teams to futility and irrelevance. How does the existence of other bad owners make Ralph's terrible performance more acceptable?

 

And finally, I'm glad you aren't moving. I don't live in Buffalo, but do live in a declining community. I like it here too.

 

Having whatever personal respect you have for Mr. Wilson is great. I simply just can't see how anyone can defend his competence with regard to fielding a consistently winning product. Or perhaps you, like Mr. Wilson, place all of the stock in just a whole bunch of bad luck.

Ralph Wilson inherited his money from his father, who made his fortune in becoming the first, i believe, to sell a health insurance plan to auto workers, Chrysler, i believe. Wilson Jr. then used that money to create a multi-pronged industry that has had ties to auto manufacturing, the oil business, trucking and, if i'm not mistaken, something to do with military weapons.

i hate doing the research for you.

and there was no expectation that the owners would opt out of the CBA after reaching that quick and ill-fated deal in 2006. you're off the mark there.

your jets $100 million thing is pure baloney, and it's not often someone slanders baloney, as i fear doing now.

and i detailed the team's free agent losses and additions, while also noting how teams that spend big money in free agency don't generally succeed.

 

i have plenty of respect for Mr. Wilson. and i have never said he's not open to criticism. it's error-filled arguments and posts such as your that conveniently cherry-pick certain facts at the exclusion of others, that i take issue with, because it's based on faulty information.

 

i think i've made my point. it's time to agree to disagree.

 

jw

[akm0404]

Ralph Wilson inherited his money from his father, who made his fortune in becoming the first, i believe, to sell a health insurance plan to auto workers, Chrysler, i believe. Wilson Jr. then used that money to create a multi-pronged industry that has had ties to auto manufacturing, the oil business, trucking and, if i'm not mistaken, something to do with military weapons.

i hate doing the research for you.

and there was no expectation that the owners would opt out of the CBA after reaching that quick and ill-fated deal in 2006. you're off the mark there.

your jets $100 million thing is pure baloney, and it's not often someone slanders baloney, as i fear doing now.

and i detailed the team's free agent losses and additions, while also noting how teams that spend big money in free agency don't generally succeed.

 

i have plenty of respect for Mr. Wilson. and i have never said he's not open to criticism. it's error-filled arguments and posts such as your that conveniently cherry-pick certain facts at the exclusion of others, that i take issue with, because it's based on faulty information.

 

i think i've made my point. it's time to agree to disagree.

 

jw

 

Ok, we'll dumb this down then so we aren't both cherry-picking certain facts and excluding others and get back to the brass tacks of this thread:

 

Do you feel that Ralph Wilson is a good owner, and why.

 

I feel that Ralph Wilson is one of the worst owners in professional sports history because he consistently has missed on hires, run good staff out of town, spends less on coaching salaries than other teams, and sells competitive advantage to other teams for cash considerations. His record speaks for itself.

 

Furthermore, I feel that his advanced age (which is certainly no fault of his) makes him unfit to run such a complex enterprise as the one he leads now. From watching press conferences etc. I have formed the opinion that he is not lucid enough to make the tough and timely decisions needed to succeed, leaving the team to suffer. This has also led the Bills to be a bit of a laughingstock, as the impression is that the organization is run by a miserly old man.

 

I wish he was not the owner of the Buffalo Bills. I feel that they would be better with a younger, more dynamic owner who was willing to take risks and spend competitive dollars to field a consistently winning team.

[Delete This Account]

Ok, we'll dumb this down then so we aren't both cherry-picking certain facts and excluding others and get back to the brass tacks of this thread:

 

Do you feel that Ralph Wilson is a good owner, and why.

 

I feel that Ralph Wilson is one of the worst owners in professional sports history because he consistently has missed on hires, run good staff out of town, spends less on coaching salaries than other teams, and sells competitive advantage to other teams for cash considerations. His record speaks for itself.

 

Furthermore, I feel that his advanced age (which is certainly no fault of his) makes him unfit to run such a complex enterprise as the one he leads now. From watching press conferences etc. I have formed the opinion that he is not lucid enough to make the tough and timely decisions needed to succeed, leaving the team to suffer. This has also led the Bills to be a bit of a laughingstock, as the impression is that the organization is run by a miserly old man.

 

I wish he was not the owner of the Buffalo Bills. I feel that they would be better with a younger, more dynamic owner who was willing to take risks and spend competitive dollars to field a consistently winning team.

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty.

 

that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets.

 

i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall.

 

having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres).

one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me.

he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007.

 

there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago.

 

he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape.

 

i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery.

if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left?

 

as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron.

 

forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute.

 

having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says.

 

jw

[Lori]

You had to bring up Schott, didn't you? Auuugh. Lifetime Reds fan here.

They weren't bad for part of her tenure; in fact, there was that wire-to-wire division championship and World Series sweep in 1990, and they were in playoff position when the '94 season self-nuked. That said, she was a horrid person with or without the Nazi memorabilia -- remember when Eric Davis lacerated his kidney diving for a fly ball in that '90 Series, and she made him pay for his own medical flight from Oakland back to Cincy?

 

THERE'S your miser, not Ralph. Speaking of which, does anyone remember the pre-salary cap days, when Jim Kelly and Bruce Smith were the highest-paid players in the league at their positions? Or RCW joking about "selling a Monet" to redo Andre Reed's deal?

[The_Philster]

THERE'S your miser, not Ralph. Speaking of which, does anyone remember the pre-salary cap days, when Jim Kelly and Bruce Smith were the highest-paid players in the league at their positions? Or RCW joking about "selling a Monet" to redo Andre Reed's deal?

I remember...but then I'm of the opinion that Ralph hasn't been cheap for at least the last 2 1/2 decades anyway

[Haven Moses]

The problem isn't money. You can't build a team with free agents anyway. Look at the Redskins.

 

The problem is the fact that he has picked lousy football people to run the show. He lucked into Polian. All the others were horrible.

[The_Philster]

The problem isn't money. You can't build a team with free agents anyway. Look at the Redskins.

 

The problem is the fact that he has picked lousy football people to run the show. He lucked into Polian. All the others were horrible.

True...Donahoe had a good reputation when he was hired, though..just wasn't as good as his press and picked weak coaches after getting run out of Pissburgh by a strong coach in Cowher.

Nix, I think, is going to work out as a great hire..I know I was genuinely excited when he came back to Buffalo last year and we already reaped some of the rewards of having him back in Wood and Nelson. Only thing I hope he avoids is overspending for average players, Butler's downfall

[birdog1960]

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty.

 

that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets.

 

i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall.

 

having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres).

one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me.

he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007.

 

there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago.

 

he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape.

 

i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery.

if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left?

 

as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron.

 

forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute.

 

having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says.

 

jw

as always, well reasoned and presented from an extraordinary perspective but...being somewhat removed from the worst in your field is hardly impressive or admirable. i'm sure this is not what you aspire to in your profession and it certainly not what i do. damned with faint praise comes to mind...

[Delete This Account]

as always, well reasoned and presented from an extraordinary perspective but...being somewhat removed from the worst in your field is hardly impressive or admirable. i'm sure this is not what you aspire to in your profession and it certainly not what i do. damned with faint praise comes to mind...

keep in mind, i've only personally dealt with seven owners on a personal and regular basis, not including the NHL when it "controlled" the Sabres.

and i find some of Mr. Wilson's personal qualities to be among the best of the all of them.

 

jw

[yungmack]

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty.

 

that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets.

 

i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall.

 

having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres).

one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me.

he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007.

 

there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago.

 

he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape.

 

i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery.

if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left?

 

as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron.

 

forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute.

 

having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says.

 

jw

Thanks for the great post.

[JohnC]

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty.

 

that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets.

 

i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall.

 

having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres).

one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me.

he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007.

 

there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago.

 

he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape.

 

i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery.

if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left?

 

as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron.

 

forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute.

 

having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says.

 

jw

 

John W, I certainly appreciate your insights with respect to the owner and the organization. However, my views on the owner and how he has run the team are much harsher than your held views on him. In the NFL there is a simple way of judging performance: the record. Whether a lot of money is spent or not is not the central issue. As Bill Parcells succinctly put it: You are what your record is. For the past decade the Bills have been dismal not only with respect to their won/lost ratio but also from an artistic sense on the field.

 

Let me move toward a more positive position. At first I was very skeptical over the Buddy Nix hiring. I have rather quickly changed my position. I like what he has done in free agency so far (both pricing and valuing players) and I like the way he handled this draft. All the picks seemed to fall in the value range where they were taken. There were no McCargo type over reaching selections. Not taking any DBs in itself was very encouraging. In Nix's first draft I got a sense that the front office had a strategy and direction: Getting bigger, stronger and adding good character to the roster. They seemed to successfully execute their plan.

 

Another aspect of Nix that I like very much is that he has a very realistic assessment of the status of the current team and he knows what it is going to take and how long it is going to take to get to the level where the team can become relevant again. If Nix would have been hired after the Donahoe stint instead of Levy and then Brandon this team, without a doubt, would be more advanced and in the mix with the rest of the teams in the division.

 

Again, John W., I very much appreciate your insights and perspectives on the franchise. Whether there is agreement or not your views are respected and given much consideration.

[EastRochBillsfan]

Congrats, it looks like all you cry babies are getting me banned.

 

The Bills are a crap team with crap ownership and a crap front office and crap coaches and crap players.

 

But I guess if you don't drink the kool-aid and want to call a spade a spade, you get banned.

 

Good riddence. maybe you should look in the mirror to see who got you banned. can akm0404 be next? just nip it in the bud.

 

i'm willing to concede that wilson's keeping the bills in buffalo is to his great credit. i just don't think it makes up for the almost 50 years of lousy product he's been selling at astronomical profit. the bills are the nfl equivalent of goldman sachs-selling products they know will fail. much should be expected from those given much (or something like that).

 

No one is forcing you to watch the games

 

Once, and only once, I bought a burger at Burger King. It was so nauseating I threw it away and never again ate at BK. However, in the 30 years since then, I haven't obsessed on BK and I don't post "I hate Burger King" screeds on the Web. I don't know who runs the company, could care less what its latest gimmick is, and just generally never think about it unless someone suggests we stop there for something to eat.

 

So...for those of you who find the whole Bills experience and history to be one of inferior product, who find the owner a nauseating cheapskate who could screw up a glass of water, who think the new GM and coaching staff are ancient incompetents, who apparently think the latest draft sucks, and who predict yet another lousy season...why are you still hanging around here? Toss the "burger" in the trash, walk away, forget about the Bills and get on with your lives.

 

Agreed. there are what 30-31 other teams to follow if the Bills burger isnt good enough for some of you

 

having followed Mr. Wilson over the past 10 years i find him to be an astute and reasonable person, who is well aware of what's going on with his team. i've not found him to be meddling over this time, and found him to be someone who asks for loyalty.

 

that he has received some bad advice is obvious. the decision to hire Tom Donahoe proved to be a mistake, and one that Ralph Wilson regrets.

 

i can't speak for the Bill Polian episode, as i wasn't here when that went down. i can't entirely speak on the John Butler dismissal, as it was only my first year here. i do truly believe that Butler was offered a chance to re-sign and ducked the chance to do so until he was fired. the writing by that time was on the wall.

 

having followed professional sports on a full-time basis for 16 years now, Mr. Wilson is not close to being the worst owner that I've encountered. there have been some i've dealt with who showed little loyalty to their community's by relocating their franchises (the Vancouver Grizzlies), or lost interest in their franchises and nearly ran them into the ground (the Vancouver Canucks), or did run them into the ground (the Sabres).

one can point to the Reds, during Marge Schotz years as being bad. the upheaval with the Tampa Bay Lightning is certainly unfortunate. how the SuperSonics were ever allowed to leave Seattle is beyond me.

he didn't lose two co-captains that were played a major role in team chemistry and success, on the same day in July 2007.

 

there is a stubborness to Mr. Wilson, but he is very decisive when it comes time to making a decision. he's taken the blame for the team's woes and attempted to correct them. it hasn't worked. and yet he still takes the blame by calling them a "dull team" as recently as two weeks ago.

 

he's the one who attempted to create a spark by going after Terrell Owens. he told me that he felt it was a move that could provide the team a spark and put the Bills back on the national landscape.

 

i do not believe he is a miser at all. if he were, why would he donate so much money to the Miami Project, even after the NFL cut its funding to the project which, curiously, wound up playing a big role in Kevin Everett's recovery.

if he were a miser, why do many of his former players talk about how well he treated them even after they left?

 

as noted, he's open to questioning and criticism over how poorly the Bills have performed. but, i know he's hired people and put them in positions of power and allowed them to formulate their own plans on how to build this team. he's not always agreed with his managers, but he's backed them on several questionable decisions including the trade for Bledsoe and hiring Dick Jauron.

 

forget what he was quoted as saying after the CBA. what people don't realize is that he questioned the process of how the CBA was presented to the owners with little time for debate or consideration of the contract's impact. he's told me he voted against it because he was skeptical of what was included and what wasn't, and how it was essentially pushed upon the owners at the last minute.

 

having had lunch with Mr. Wilson and spoken to him by phone and in person on numerous occassions, i find him to be amusing, funny and forthright, and a throwback type of gentlemen who considers a handshake to be a promise, and backs up what he says.

 

jw

Great, awesome post! Now please don't reply anymore to akm cuz it's obvious this is a losing battle. I think he is wrong but he doesn't and nothing you say is going to change that. It's just a total waste of your time at this point. and all of us readers time as well.

[Mr. WEO]

that has plenty to do with the NFL's success, something Mr. Wilson had something to do with.

 

I don't know anyone who is arguing that, 40-50 years ago, RW wasn't a forceful player in the creation of today's NFL. That's why he is the HOF. But you intially argued that Buffalo's poor economic situation is impacting his ability to clear tens of millions each year. Your response to my pointing out this is incorrect is to argue that the NFL is a very successful business to be in. Well, yeah...good point.

 

 

Bills fans had the opportunity to have their say in the 1990s, before the lease was up. as for the Toronto deal, let's not work in a vacuum here. the deal was precipitated after Mr. Wilson expressed serious concern about the franchise's long-term stability in Buffalo. this immediately followed the approval of the new CBA and directly followed his meeting with Governor Pataki, when Mr. Wilson stressed he wasn't looking for any more public handouts.

 

The lease decision was made by the County Executive. The fans didn't weren't consulted, but no doubt would have approved. Has nothing to do with Toronto 10 years later, however....but anyway, the "serious concern about the long-term stability in Buffalo" was not due to any problems in Ralph's ability to make money at that time. Getting 78 million from a bunch of suckers up north had zero impact on the "long term stability" of the Bills. The next owner will have a world of difficulty paying for his new team that Ralph is completely unfamiliar with, and so far, barring any "secret succession plans", there is no indication that he carees what happens when he is gone. And by the way, Ralph voted against a CBA that promised him and other "small market" teams unprecedented financial aid from "wealthier" owners.

 

 

c'mon, really? it's questionable to make any comparisons between how a Buffalo team draws in Toronto as opposed to a based-in-Toronto full-time team would resonate with its fans. the Rogers folks, i believe, over-estimated the value of leasing a team for an eight-game series, and how it would be accepted among Torontonians.

the fact that Torontonians haven't lined up all the way to Queen Street to buy $200 tickets is, i believe, more of an indication that their lack of commitment is more due to the fact that this is a "Buffalo" team. the thought process behind if we bring it they will come was a little skewed.

no one realized how skewed.

 

Maybe. Or maybe they got a good look at what a "well established" NFL team looks like.

 

no. and now you're arguing my point. Mr. Wilson wouldn't give up a piece of his ownership in the first place. and he wouldn't do so if it led to the team's relocation.

if Mr. Wilson went for that deal, then he could be accused of being greedy, right?

No, your point was clearly that the Bills could move to LA tomorrow. You listed it as evidence in your "he could move this team and choses not to" argument. Clearly this impossible tomorrow or in the near future for the reasons I listed. Ralph will not sell to ANYBODY while he is living. No one is arguning otherwise--also a point of mine. It is inconceivable for me to consider Ralph giving up a piece.

 

 

right, sounds like an astute businessman. should he apologize for getting in on the ground floor of something that became a national phenomenon? and if the city of Buffalo's serious about building a downtown stadium for the Bills, why does Mr. Wilson continue to say he's not interested?

Of course not! I am making the opposite argument--that he is going to milk it for every penny he can for the rest of his days---right here in Buffalo, becuase there is no other city in the country where he can get the deal he has now. Of course Mr. Wilson will continue to say he's not interested in a new stadium---it would require him to contribute. He has no interest in giving money away when he doesn't have to.

 

 

is that what they were saying in Baltimore before the Colts moved to Indy? in Cleveland, perhaps? Houston? or Oakland ... well, not Oakland. or what about the concerns in Jacksonville, Minnesota in San Diego? are those teams secure in those respective markets?

again, it's a no-win argument you propose.

Mr. Wilson hasn't moved the team and should be faulted for it ... or at least that's the way i read it.

 

jw

 

Ancient history---and not on point here. Each of those teams had an owner who, for financial considerations wanted to move the team and had the opportunity to do so.

 

My point is that Ralph has neither the desire (he cannot make more profit elsewhere--plain and simple) nor the opportunity (there is, has been no where to go).

 

Wilson can be defended as a HOFer for several reasons. But he cannot be defended by saying "chose to stay when he could have moved". You have given no argument otherwise, excepting your mention of an off-hand lunchtime conversation that RW had with Schramm so many years ago.

[birdog1960]

 

 

 

 

No one is forcing you to watch the games

do you work for goldman's defense team? they plan on using the same lame argument

[Delete This Account]

I don't know anyone who is arguing that, 40-50 years ago, RW wasn't a forceful player in the creation of today's NFL. That's why he is the HOF. But you intially argued that Buffalo's poor economic situation is impacting his ability to clear tens of millions each year. Your response to my pointing out this is incorrect is to argue that the NFL is a very successful business to be in. Well, yeah...good point.

 

 

 

 

The lease decision was made by the County Executive. The fans didn't weren't consulted, but no doubt would have approved. Has nothing to do with Toronto 10 years later, however....but anyway, the "serious concern about the long-term stability in Buffalo" was not due to any problems in Ralph's ability to make money at that time. Getting 78 million from a bunch of suckers up north had zero impact on the "long term stability" of the Bills. The next owner will have a world of difficulty paying for his new team that Ralph is completely unfamiliar with, and so far, barring any "secret succession plans", there is no indication that he carees what happens when he is gone. And by the way, Ralph voted against a CBA that promised him and other "small market" teams unprecedented financial aid from "wealthier" owners.

 

 

 

 

Maybe. Or maybe they got a good look at what a "well established" NFL team looks like.

 

 

No, your point was clearly that the Bills could move to LA tomorrow. You listed it as evidence in your "he could move this team and choses not to" argument. Clearly this impossible tomorrow or in the near future for the reasons I listed. Ralph will not sell to ANYBODY while he is living. No one is arguning otherwise--also a point of mine. It is inconceivable for me to consider Ralph giving up a piece.

 

 

 

Of course not! I am making the opposite argument--that he is going to milk it for every penny he can for the rest of his days---right here in Buffalo, becuase there is no other city in the country where he can get the deal he has now. Of course Mr. Wilson will continue to say he's not interested in a new stadium---it would require him to contribute. He has no interest in giving money away when he doesn't have to.

 

 

 

 

Ancient history---and not on point here. Each of those teams had an owner who, for financial considerations wanted to move the team and had the opportunity to do so.

 

My point is that Ralph has neither the desire (he cannot make more profit elsewhere--plain and simple) nor the opportunity (there is, has been no where to go).

 

Wilson can be defended as a HOFer for several reasons. But he cannot be defended by saying "chose to stay when he could have moved". You have given no argument otherwise, excepting your mention of an off-hand lunchtime conversation that RW had with Schramm so many years ago.

i respectfully disagree with some of your points. to go into detail would be too tiring. let's leave it at that.

 

jw

[RealityCheck]

Just curious, what do you guys think you'll be doing when your 90 years old? Secondly, how many people do you think will be obsessed with what that might be? Just remember that if you chose not to respond to these question but instead chose to go on a long winded rant about what you assume I mean by the questions then please assume away. This whole thread is hysterically funny so far.