BuffaloBill Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 The real issue here is that nobody posting here knows the full story with the kid. Perhaps the charge is only one issue among many that are keeping teams away. It seems to me that if every NFL team is shying away there is more to the story than a 16 year old kid making a really bad judgement call.
KD in CA Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 The real issue here is that nobody posting here knows the full story with the kid. Perhaps the charge is only one issue among many that are keeping teams away. It seems to me that if every NFL team is shying away there is more to the story than a 16 year old kid making a really bad judgment call. I don't. I think others in this thread have figured it out perfectly. This kid is being black balled because incest is one of the very few remaining taboos in our society (that and smoking). If he had forcibly raped a classmate when he was 16, I have zero doubt he would be on an NFL roster today. But while our society falls all over itself to give criminals a "second chance" no matter how vile their crimes, incest remains so unspeakable that people would prefer to deal with a rapist. Kinda screwed up, isn't it? Were his and his sister's actions sick and gross? They are to me. Did they both need some serious counseling? Probably. Should he be branded as a lifetime sex predator and blackballed from football for a consensual act with his sister who was less than a year apart in age (spare me the 'statutory rape' claims) when they were 16/15 years old? Only if you think what he did was worse than adults committing domestic violence, assault, sexual assault, vehicular homicide, etc. The league has blackballed this kid to protect their image, period.
DanInUticaTampa Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 The real issue here is that nobody posting here knows the full story with the kid. Perhaps the charge is only one issue among many that are keeping teams away. It seems to me that if every NFL team is shying away there is more to the story than a 16 year old kid making a really bad judgement call. Well, since this happened a long time ago and nothing else has happened since, or made the news. I assume he hasnt caused any trouble.... I don't see any other issues unless they happened to him when he was like 15, which is ridiculous when players are doing much worse things as adults. If he had any legal trouble, the media would have found it. And any other social issues would have came out as well, since the national sports media is scrutinizing the whole thing.
starrymessenger Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 There is a difference between what Washington did (that will apparently not be forgiven) and the other perhaps more reprehensible things that others do (and that are forgiven). Whether it be DUI, vehicular homocide, manslaughter, even perhaps murder, the thought often comes to mind "There, but for the grace of God, go I". This permits us to empathize with the offender and explains our readiness to forgive. In a sense we are forgiving ourselves, which is easier to do than to forgive others for things that we would never have done. When it comes to Washington, fewer of us would be able to empathize with the offender because we know we would never go there.
KD in CA Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 This thread is worthless without pics. Here you go. Enjoy.
Ozymandius Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 Here you go. Enjoy. If that's his sister then I can't sympathize with this a-hole at all!
Thurman#1 Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 Ok, if it's such a basic concept, just explain it to the best of your ability. Why is consensual incest morally wrong? By the way, your above post is classic ad hominem. You can't think of something relevant to say, so you just try to degrade the person you're debating. I personally would never have sex with my sister because of my cultural conditioning...I find the idea gross. But why would it be morally wrong? Because it's been proven to harm the ability of participants to form mature love relationships with non-relatives. Because there is a heightened risk of genetic diseases in children of these relationships. For two.
Thurman#1 Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 Mutual consent?? An act of passion??---holy sh**T!!! How do you know this?? His sister consented to having her BIG bro have sex with her when she was 15 (and it started and ended right there?)? You must come from "Tony"'s home town! You believe BR's first accuser when it is clear that she perpetrated a fraud against the state where she filed charges and is in the process of doing the same in civil court? And you believe her? It is clear you have no familiarity with the facts of that case. You arer free to believe what you want, but you can't attempt to convince others to agree with you if you chose ignore what disturbs your view of reality. Like, mellow out, dude. What he said was all from the news accounts. That's why he knows it. They have a good non-sexual relationship to this day. That's why he knows it. Do some research before you go off. Yeah, it's something that makes us all feel queasy, but you still need to do research before you accuse a guy of making stuff up. He didn't. Since nobody has dealt with the facts in this thread, here is a place to find a few: http://www.sportsfanlive.com/sflreports/en...usive_lineman_s A few excerpts: "In May 2003, Washington was convicted of having sex with a relative that multiple NFL and college sources say was his 15-year old biological sister. The act was consensual, according to his college coaches and two NFL scouts, who spoke to him about the incident. The sister does not wish to speak publicly on the case, according to Washington’s agent, who added that the siblings are now on good terms and talk often. " -- "... Everything else, including his home, was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. “'Katrina was a total disruption of his life and his high school career,' said Sartain, a coaching veteran of 26 years and father of two, who now heads up the football program at East Texas Baptist University. " -- "The product of what Sartain calls a 'dysfunctional' family, Washington arrived in Athens, Texas, with emotional needs that had long been neglected. 'I don’t want to say he was emotionally "crippled," but with that traumatic time in his life, he skipped a phase, so to speak, in his emotional development,' the coach said." -- “'The biggest concern I had was, "Is he going to be a threat to the community?"’ Thomsen said. "After a thorough investigation, the school agreed to accept him. 'Even the chief of police thought Tony was a low risk,' Thomsen said. " -- I'm not going to switch all the quotation marks on this next bit, I'll just paste it it. Sorry ...: “I don’t want to cry ‘victim’ and he never has, per se, but I really believe that he was a 16-year-old victim of his own environment,” Sartain said. “It’s unfortunate that the counsel that he got at the time led him to have this label on him the rest of his life.” It’s a label he couldn’t escape in his hometown of New Orleans, where as a high school student, he bagged groceries at Save-a-Lot until 5 a.m., went directly to school, then practice, then back to work. He couldn’t escape it when he came to Athens, Texas, and had his name printed in the local newspaper as part of the required community notification of his status. But if he truly wanted to run from his past, he would have given up long ago. Instead, he’s choosing to face it, something Sartain hopes people will appreciate. “I find it hard to believe that people cannot realize the resolve, the perseverance, the character and determination that this young man has had to get where he is,” Sartain said. Thomsen points to the fact that his former player has had no run-ins with the law since his offense seven years ago. “I have no fear in my mind of anything like that happening with Tony again,” Thomsen said. “I wouldn’t have brought him here if I had that fear. And I have no reservations about anything like that happening again in his future.” The fact that the offense was committed as a juvenile means the odds are in his favor. According to a report published by the National Center on Sexual Behavior of Youth, adolescent sex offenders have a 5 percent to 14 percent chance of sexual re-offenses. Dr. Fred Berlin, Associate Professor of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic, believes that unlike adult offenders, juveniles are “highly treatable” and “rarely go on to become adult offenders.” -- And: “I’m not so much concerned with the incident. It happened seven years ago,” the scout said. “But I am concerned with his maturity level. He’s going to walk into an NFL locker room where it’s tough enough being a rookie, but this – this takes it to a whole new level. And I worry about how the media in whatever market his team is in is going to take this.” Thomsen disagrees with the assessment that his former player is “immature,” saying he was a model citizen, and “never had any off-the-field incident or any problems whatsoever” at Abilene Christian. Rather than preparing for the Combine at one of the trendy high-end training facilities, Washington chose to work out privately with former Ohio State linebacker Anthony Schlegal, who was the campus president for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. “He’s surrounding himself with good people,” Thomsen said. “He wants to succeed. And that’s what he needs.” Washington’s choice of agent is also telling. Vann McElroy is not only a former NFL safety who won a Super Bowl with the Raiders, but he is also the son of a pastor. “We didn’t put people like Anthony Schlegel in Tony’s life,” McElroy told SportsFanLive.com. “He reached out to them. He chose to go to Abilene Christian. To me that says a lot.” -- It's a good long interesting article. And after you read it, you won't be guessing about what happened.
Thurman#1 Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 The real issue here is that nob ody posting here knows the full story with the kid. Perhaps the charge is only one issue among many that are keeping teams away. It seems to me that if every NFLK team is shying away there is more to the story than a 16 year old kid making a really bad judgement call. Or perhaps not. Perhaps you're guessing about that without any factual basis whatsoever, when incest charges are plenty to give people pause. For the folks using the word "blackballed," you think everyone got together on this? Please. This is a case of 32 organizations all either deciding negatively or needing more time and thought to make a decision.
Adam Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 This kid is a beast and is on a lot of other teams forms... He is a Div 2 OT prospect that many considered to have a 1st or 2nd grade athletically... search his name and you will find out why he wasn't drafted, but keep in mind it was one mistake 8 years ago and the fact that he hasn't made another one I think tells you something ... The bills should bring him in and take a flyer on him. I am personally disgusted on 'how holyer than tho' ralf and this whole organization operates (even though 'new' still smells like old)... The only reason the bills and most other NFL teams didn't send someone to his pro date (only a scout form the 'cow'boys attended) or try and sign the kid is because they are too lazy to come up with ideas of how to spin this story (ie. the changed man story) to the buffalo media... Just some thoughts maybe someone might take notice... last time i checked we need offensive line man we where pretty thin last year. How much game film of him have you evaluated to make this statement? I am sure it is more than our coaching staff and front office have seen......
Mr. WEO Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 Like, mellow out, dude. What he said was all from the news accounts. That's why he knows it. They have a good non-sexual relationship to this day. That's why he knows it. Do some research before you go off. Yeah, it's something that makes us all feel queasy, but you still need to do research before you accuse a guy of making stuff up. He didn't. Since nobody has dealt with the facts in this thread, here is a place to find a few: http://www.sportsfanlive.com/sflreports/en...usive_lineman_s A few excerpts: "In May 2003, Washington was convicted of having sex with a relative that multiple NFL and college sources say was his 15-year old biological sister. The act was consensual, according to his college coaches and two NFL scouts, who spoke to him about the incident. The sister does not wish to speak publicly on the case, according to Washington’s agent, who added that the siblings are now on good terms and talk often. " -- "... Everything else, including his home, was destroyed by Hurricane Katrina. “'Katrina was a total disruption of his life and his high school career,' said Sartain, a coaching veteran of 26 years and father of two, who now heads up the football program at East Texas Baptist University. " -- "The product of what Sartain calls a 'dysfunctional' family, Washington arrived in Athens, Texas, with emotional needs that had long been neglected. 'I don’t want to say he was emotionally "crippled," but with that traumatic time in his life, he skipped a phase, so to speak, in his emotional development,' the coach said." -- “'The biggest concern I had was, "Is he going to be a threat to the community?"’ Thomsen said. "After a thorough investigation, the school agreed to accept him. 'Even the chief of police thought Tony was a low risk,' Thomsen said. " -- I'm not going to switch all the quotation marks on this next bit, I'll just paste it it. Sorry ...: “I don’t want to cry ‘victim’ and he never has, per se, but I really believe that he was a 16-year-old victim of his own environment,” Sartain said. “It’s unfortunate that the counsel that he got at the time led him to have this label on him the rest of his life.” It’s a label he couldn’t escape in his hometown of New Orleans, where as a high school student, he bagged groceries at Save-a-Lot until 5 a.m., went directly to school, then practice, then back to work. He couldn’t escape it when he came to Athens, Texas, and had his name printed in the local newspaper as part of the required community notification of his status. But if he truly wanted to run from his past, he would have given up long ago. Instead, he’s choosing to face it, something Sartain hopes people will appreciate. “I find it hard to believe that people cannot realize the resolve, the perseverance, the character and determination that this young man has had to get where he is,” Sartain said. Thomsen points to the fact that his former player has had no run-ins with the law since his offense seven years ago. “I have no fear in my mind of anything like that happening with Tony again,” Thomsen said. “I wouldn’t have brought him here if I had that fear. And I have no reservations about anything like that happening again in his future.” The fact that the offense was committed as a juvenile means the odds are in his favor. According to a report published by the National Center on Sexual Behavior of Youth, adolescent sex offenders have a 5 percent to 14 percent chance of sexual re-offenses. Dr. Fred Berlin, Associate Professor of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, and founder of the Sexual Disorders Clinic, believes that unlike adult offenders, juveniles are “highly treatable” and “rarely go on to become adult offenders.” -- And: “I’m not so much concerned with the incident. It happened seven years ago,” the scout said. “But I am concerned with his maturity level. He’s going to walk into an NFL locker room where it’s tough enough being a rookie, but this – this takes it to a whole new level. And I worry about how the media in whatever market his team is in is going to take this.” Thomsen disagrees with the assessment that his former player is “immature,” saying he was a model citizen, and “never had any off-the-field incident or any problems whatsoever” at Abilene Christian. Rather than preparing for the Combine at one of the trendy high-end training facilities, Washington chose to work out privately with former Ohio State linebacker Anthony Schlegal, who was the campus president for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. “He’s surrounding himself with good people,” Thomsen said. “He wants to succeed. And that’s what he needs.” Washington’s choice of agent is also telling. Vann McElroy is not only a former NFL safety who won a Super Bowl with the Raiders, but he is also the son of a pastor. “We didn’t put people like Anthony Schlegel in Tony’s life,” McElroy told SportsFanLive.com. “He reached out to them. He chose to go to Abilene Christian. To me that says a lot.” -- It's a good long interesting article. And after you read it, you won't be guessing about what happened. I read that article when someone here posted it weeks ago. It further erodes your argument---if you read it closely, you would NEVER have used it to respond to my post. In fact the only fact is contained in the first sentence. The ONLY claim published in that "fact filled" article that the sex was "consensual" was according to his college coaches and two NFL scouts, who spoke to him about the incident. in fact, the only credible claim can come from the victim--his sister and as your reference CLEARLY states: "The sister does not wish to speak publicly on the case" (regardless of what their relationship is today). His coach and a few scouts tell us all about the events and that's enough for you?? Look, I never said the guy made it up----just that is ridiculous for you, me, or coaches and scouts (who have vested interests in this kid's success as a football player) to claim we know that this was "passionate, consensual" incest. We only know what the perp has told us. You can believe him or not--but you can't state it as fact. That was kind of my point. You should really read your references before you post them in your defense. And this talk of "blackballing" is nonsense. So far, all 32 teams have clearly concluded that he just isn't that good a prospect to counter the bad publicity. They are free to come to that conclusion indepently. To claim otherwise is nuts.
cantankerous Posted April 27, 2010 Posted April 27, 2010 The guy is trying to get his s**t together, if you read his story. I don't understand why a team won't take a flyer on him. Because he's a f-ckin sicko that had sex with his SISTER.
rmunschauer Posted April 28, 2010 Author Posted April 28, 2010 How much game film of him have you evaluated to make this statement? I am sure it is more than our coaching staff and front office have seen...... who knows how much film they have watched on him... the only reason I have ever herd of the school is from tony's performance at the combine... After I watched him in the drills I then went back and tried to get any film available (obviously since I am not a pro scout and am just a football geek I didn't request film from the school) and the only stuff I could find was a few highlight reels from games his school played in the 2009 and 2008 campaigns on youtube.... That being said he looks dominating against his D2 opponents...
RealityCheck Posted April 28, 2010 Posted April 28, 2010 No NFL team drafted Tony Washington, who cares?
Celtic_soulja Posted April 28, 2010 Posted April 28, 2010 It was not Tony that got "blackballed" hehehehe...and they are both sick and twisted individuals...so I am SURE we can find another OT that is worth our time...OH THERE HE IS ... Good day Mr. Wang
USABuffaloFan Posted April 28, 2010 Posted April 28, 2010 Ok, if it's such a basic concept, just explain it to the best of your ability. Why is consensual incest morally wrong? By the way, your above post is classic ad hominem. You can't think of something relevant to say, so you just try to degrade the person you're debating. I personally would never have sex with my sister because of my cultural conditioning...I find the idea gross. But why would it be morally wrong? The Bible's old testament is slewn with incest and is the bases of Adam and Eve's love. The biggest reason incest is band in modern days is because of DNA issues and birth defects. If you ever been to middle Iowa and States like that you can see for yourself what can happen. The Amish people have many malformations, kissing cousins probably don't matter. Some people don't have alot of choices around them, in small populations under 100. They may never have left their towns. They are truely uneducated!! When I was in college in the middle 80's porn movies like Taboo were watched by many people in the college dorms. I would bet many of you have seen scenes and didn't turn it off. Does that mean people wish to have sex with their family members, No. We all know right from wrong and can make conscience choices not to do those type of things. Often jokes have been told about siblings "playing doctor" with one another. I can tell you one thing, I didn't learn about sex in school or by my parents. It was from magazines and porn movies as a young adult 13-16. No one explain to me during puberity what I was dealing with as a 13-16 year old. I went to detention as a 14 year old student in middle school because I couldn't go to the front of the classroom to do a speech due to a untimely erection. The teacher thought I was defying her, I wanted her to touch me and I didn't even understand why! Timing is everything people. Our society does a terrible job dealing with sexuality with individuals coming of age. We rarely talk or let them know what is right or wrong. As a kid, you know something is wrong or up with what is happening but you don't really know why. Proper education takes away mistakes being made by younger individuals. How do you really properly teach sexuality. Telling kids by anatomy drawings that babies are birthed in this manner just raise the intrigue of the subject to teens. They will experiment if they don't truely understand. We all have some skeletons in our closets from these years. You will never admit it and really should never talk about, they are very private. If you got to be an adult with no other real issue, Thank God for that. Many people have some really bad things in their closet. Feel sorry and move on. Never accept adults doing the wrong things, they should know better but be careful blaming teens for their issues. There is no excuse for parents having sex with their kids or family members. I do feel for young family members like Tony Washington and his sister. They may not really know what they were doing, they knew it was wrong but how wrong could really be debated. If they were uneducated then put in very wrong circumstances, something could happen that shouldn't. This is not rape but very wrong morally today. They probably really didn't understand this concept.This can't be condoned but as adults we understand how complicated sex really is. Many adults get it all wrong, look at Ben R. To stigmitized a 15 and 16 year old soley because of the act is really wrong. We can't possibly understand what happened. As long as those two got counseling, did their punishment and truely understand why that can't happen so when they have kids it doesn't repeat, we need to forgive. This isn't criminal, it is on the line of fornication and homosexuality with teens. If they understand why it was wrong and never behave that way again, I say it is a private matter and we don't need to react as fans. I wouldn't want my teen years to be looked at and decided who I am as a adult. This man and family needs to move on and we are very wrong by not letting him do this. Maybe if he made a decent paycheck he could take up the cause to educate younger kids the mistakes not to make. Be careful how you judge this man and his family.
Steely Dan Posted April 28, 2010 Posted April 28, 2010 Not sure what your point is. Nobody drafted him, so does that mean the Bills are stupid for not taking him? Or are all 32 teams stupid? Sounds like all 32 teams know something we don't. That can't possibly be. It's not that he was young and didn't know any better it's a biological gross out. Just talking about this gives me the willies. In my situation It would take a lot to get over this gross out factor.
CarolinaBill Posted April 28, 2010 Posted April 28, 2010 I read that article when someone here posted it weeks ago. It further erodes your argument---if you read it closely, you would NEVER have used it to respond to my post. In fact the only fact is contained in the first sentence. The ONLY claim published in that "fact filled" article that the sex was "consensual" was according to his college coaches and two NFL scouts, who spoke to him about the incident. in fact, the only credible claim can come from the victim--his sister and as your reference CLEARLY states: "The sister does not wish to speak publicly on the case" (regardless of what their relationship is today). His coach and a few scouts tell us all about the events and that's enough for you?? Look, I never said the guy made it up----just that is ridiculous for you, me, or coaches and scouts (who have vested interests in this kid's success as a football player) to claim we know that this was "passionate, consensual" incest. We only know what the perp has told us. You can believe him or not--but you can't state it as fact. That was kind of my point. You should really read your references before you post them in your defense. And this talk of "blackballing" is nonsense. So far, all 32 teams have clearly concluded that he just isn't that good a prospect to counter the bad publicity. They are free to come to that conclusion indepently. To claim otherwise is nuts. no, he's been blackballed by goodell, it's been confirmed.
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