jonramz Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 It's not just NT, but also 3-4 DE's that are tough to find too... basically in a 3-4 you want your 3 DL to take up the 5 OL so the LB's can run around and make plays. But the NT has to be a 2-gap player... and like other posters have said... there are only so many athletic 330lb people on this earth. Take a look at super bowl 25 and see what happens when you have a NT that can't clog the middle
Sisyphean Bills Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Because its really hard to find 330+ lb athletic humans. True. Maybe the OP was thinking gorillas though?
Mr. ChumChums Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 True. Maybe the OP was thinking gorillas though? Oh man...just imagine what kind of team we would have if our D-Line were all gorillas! Personal foul penalties EVERYWHERE, but no way would that ball ever cross the LOS!
clearwater cadet Posted April 20, 2010 Author Posted April 20, 2010 How many 350 pound guys who are mostly muscle do you see out there? They're absolutely huge, and they also have to have tremendous strength. They don't just absorb double-team blocks. They're also supposed to move a step or two towards the play while doing so. Can't you see how difficult it might be to move whichever way you feel like while 650 pounds of weight-trained tough guys do their best to stop you from doing so? Come on, how much of mostly muscle is Cody from Alabama. Why can't a guy like lonnie harvey at 340 absorb a double-team block and move a step or two towards the play. How much technique can that really take, I just don't think that type of position warrents a top 64 pick.
Thurman#1 Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Come on, how much of mostly muscle is Cody from Alabama. Why can't a guy like lonnie harvey at 340 absorb a double-team block and move a step or two towards the play. How much technique can that really take, I just don't think that type of position warrents a top 64 pick. How much of him is muscle? Take a look at his legs. Then watch the game films of him throwing double-teams around like they're Jujubes. Most of him is muscle, the guy is tremendously strong. I'm not saying he couldn't lose a few or even a few and then a few more, but if you don't think the guy is massively strong, you're not observing reality. Well, if you don't want to believe that position warrants a top 64 pick, go argue with Belichick and Pioli for picking Wilfork at #21, and with Belly again for re-signing him for $8 mill/ year. Go argue with the Steelers for picking Hampton at #19 and re-signing him for $7 mill/ year. Go argue with Ozzie and the Ravens for picking Ngata at pick #12 and improving from 9th in the league to 2nd in the league at rushing defence in one year. Go argue with whoever picked Kris Jenkins 44th. Or the Jets for trading for him in spite of a history of weight problems and knee and shoulder injuries and giving him a $7 mill a year contract. Boy, what a lousy decision you must believe that one was. Argue with the Chargers for picking up Jamal Williams in the second round of a supplemental draft. Go argue with the Packers at drafting Raji at #9 last year when they already had the sensational but aging Pickett (picked at #29, by the way). You remember the Packers, don't you? If you forget who they are, just go to the rankings of running defense last year and you'll find the Pack at #1. In short, go argue with the experts, the guys who run 3 - 4 defenses and win championships and consistently field winning teams. I'm sure you'll change their minds.
Thurman#1 Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Disagree. I'm 180 pounds and could EASILY do the same job. NT = piece of cake. Well, sure, you could. But most of us ordinary humans would find it a bit more difficult. :0)
Leonidas Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 How many 350 pound guys who are mostly muscle do you see out there? They're absolutely huge, and they also have to have tremendous strength. They don't just absorb double-team blocks. They're also supposed to move a step or two towards the play while doing so. Can't you see how difficult it might be to move whichever way you feel like while 650 pounds of weight-trained tough guys do their best to stop you from doing so? Just reading this made me tired. And I'm still in bed. In my opinion, the people on this board overstate the importance of the 3-4 nose tackle. Yes, very good ones are hard to find. But a 3-4 defense can be effective without a Pro Bowl caliber nose tackle AND a good nose tackle does not assure a good defense. Here are the 3-4 defenses from last year (ranked by yardage) with their nose tackle. 1 New York Jets Kris Jenkins (Elite) 2 Green Bay Ryan Pickett (Very good, B.J. Raji plays defensive end) 3 Baltimore Kelly Gregg (Good, Haloti Ngata plays defensive end) 5 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton (Elite) 7 Denver Ronald Fields (Average) 9 Dallas Jay Ratliff (Average) 11 New England Vince Wilfork (Elite) 15 San Francisco Aubrayo Franklin (Elite) 16 San Diego Jamaal Williams (Formerly elite nose tackle) 22 Miami Jason Ferguson (Formerly elite, re-signed in spite of 8 game suspension) 30 Kansas City Ron Edwards (sub par nose tackle) 31 Cleveland Shaun Rogers (Elite) The top four 3-4 defenses are star-studded at most positions. They also all have good nose tackles. Denver and Dallas had good defenses with average nose tackles. New England, San Francisco and San Diego have Pro Bowl caliber nose tackles but are average defenses. Miami and Cleveland have poor defenses in spite of having excellent nose tackles. Interestingly, only the New York Jets made the final four of the 2009 Playoffs (Conference Championships). If the Bills can get Dan Williams, Terrence Cody or Cam Thomas with their second pick (wherever that ends up being), I'd be happy. But at the #9 position, none of the top nose tackles are worth the pick. As many of you know by now, I would rather draft an elite pass rusher (this is a great year for pass rushers) who can get sacks, strips, and force interceptions than a college nose tackle who may or may not be better than Ron Brace, who the Patriots drafted in the 2nd round last year. When was the last time Jason Furgueson was elite? 2007? It should be noted that the Jets got there without Jenkins - he was put on IR mid-season. Why are they hard to find? Because more then half the teams in the league use that type of defence One of these days you'll learn how to spell "defense." It's not just NT, but also 3-4 DE's that are tough to find too... basically in a 3-4 you want your 3 DL to take up the 5 OL so the LB's can run around and make plays. But the NT has to be a 2-gap player... and like other posters have said... there are only so many athletic 330lb people on this earth. Take a look at super bowl 25 and see what happens when you have a NT that can't clog the middle True, but there are a few more 280-290 lb. athletes lying around than the 340-350 lb. ones. They are the scarce resource.
3rdnlng Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Just reading this made me tired. And I'm still in bed. When was the last time Jason Furgueson was elite? 2007? It should be noted that the Jets got there without Jenkins - he was put on IR mid-season. One of these days you'll learn how to spell "defense." True, but there are a few more 280-290 lb. athletes lying around than the 340-350 lb. ones. They are the scarce resource. Shhhh. That's how we know they are foreign nationals from north of the border.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 When was the last time Jason Furgueson was elite? 2007? It should be noted that the Jets got there without Jenkins - he was put on IR mid-season. I stated that Jason Ferguson was "formerly elite." But he's still damn good. It was very telling that the Dolphins re-signed him to another year AFTER it was announced that he would be suspended for half the season...that's right, 8 games. I think that speaks to his value to the team. As for Jenkins (and Shaun Rogers missed quite a few games, too) I said that the Jets' defense was "star-studded." None of this changes my original point. The Jenkins thing actually strengthens my point(s). A team doesn't need an elite NT to be an elite defense. And an elite NT does not assure an elite defense.
Leonidas Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 I stated that Jason Ferguson was "formerly elite." But he's still damn good. It was very telling that the Dolphins re-signed him to another year AFTER it was announced that he would be suspended for half the season...that's right, 8 games. I think that speaks to his value to the team. As for Jenkins (and Shaun Rogers missed quite a few games, too) I said that the Jets' defense was "star-studded." None of this changes my original point. The Jenkins thing actually strengthens my point(s). A team doesn't need an elite NT to be an elite defense. And an elite NT does not assure an elite defense. I wasn't trying to attack your point, just making a few on my own. I think Ferguson was re-signed just because of the short supply of legit NT's in the league. I don't know what the contract terms were, but I'm sure they weren't prohibitive - if they find an answer at NT he will easily be benched (if he finds his way back into the rotation after missing eight games).
BuffaloBillsMagic1 Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 There are only so many 6ft 3 or 4 inch guys that weigh more than 325lbs in the world that play football. This is reason so few exist that can actually play.
clearwater cadet Posted April 20, 2010 Author Posted April 20, 2010 How much of him is muscle? Take a look at his legs. Then watch the game films of him throwing double-teams around like they're Jujubes. Most of him is muscle, the guy is tremendously strong. I'm not saying he couldn't lose a few or even a few and then a few more, but if you don't think the guy is massively strong, you're not observing reality. Well, if you don't want to believe that position warrants a top 64 pick, go argue with Belichick and Pioli for picking Wilfork at #21, and with Belly again for re-signing him for $8 mill/ year. Go argue with the Steelers for picking Hampton at #19 and re-signing him for $7 mill/ year. Go argue with Ozzie and the Ravens for picking Ngata at pick #12 and improving from 9th in the league to 2nd in the league at rushing defence in one year. Go argue with whoever picked Kris Jenkins 44th. Or the Jets for trading for him in spite of a history of weight problems and knee and shoulder injuries and giving him a $7 mill a year contract. Boy, what a lousy decision you must believe that one was. Argue with the Chargers for picking up Jamal Williams in the second round of a supplemental draft. Go argue with the Packers at drafting Raji at #9 last year when they already had the sensational but aging Pickett (picked at #29, by the way). You remember the Packers, don't you? If you forget who they are, just go to the rankings of running defense last year and you'll find the Pack at #1. In short, go argue with the experts, the guys who run 3 - 4 defenses and win championships and consistently field winning teams. I'm sure you'll change their minds. I hear what your saying, and for the record I'm not a big college football fan so I'm not one who can rate college players, But I still respectfully disagree, Vince Wolfork was drafted to to replace Keith Traylor (who replaced Ted Washington) who was in his mid 30's, on a team that was already loaded. Why not draft at a position of need when your lucky enough to do so. Kris Jenkins was placed on IR after the 8th game and the Jets still did fine with out him. Jamal Williams? Why was he drafted in the supplemental draft if he was such a gem, why wasn't he draft in the regular draft. Maybe he was the by product of good coaching and good linebackers. Casey Hampton, I'm not a big steelers fan, and with all the great players the steelers have had on defense over the years and the lack of production with a true NT, I never really heard much about him. ( sorry I don't watch the pro bowl, but I hear Jason Peters suck and he still makes it every year), the most I've heard of hamptom is last year when rumors were the steelers were going to release him. I thought he might be a nice fit for the bills. Raji, plays DE in the 3-4 alignment, different type of player, Ngata, plays DE 3-4 aligement, again totally different type of player. I would go argue with the experts, but none of them would argue with me so, I have to argue with you. Sorry, but it better then talking health care reform. I just think the Bills have to many hole to fill to worry about that position at this time. I do believe it is an important position, but not with a high pick.
Chandler#81 Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Twelve teams used it as their base defense last year.Fifteen teams are expected to use the 3-4 this year. There are 32 teams in the NFL. There are no more than 5 elite NTs in the NFL right now. This. Why are they so hard to find? Do you happen to have a 6'3", 330lbs. agile, mobile, virile, hostile guy on your cul-de-sac?
clearwater cadet Posted April 20, 2010 Author Posted April 20, 2010 Twelve teams used it as their base defense last year. Fifteen teams are expected to use the 3-4 this year. There are 32 teams in the NFL. There are no more than 5 elite NTs in the NFL right now. There's no more then 5 elite qb in the NFL, but teams still win and make the playoffs.
3rdnlng Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 This. Why are they so hard to find? Do you happen to have a 6'3", 330lbs. agile, mobile, virile, hostile guy on your cul-de-sac? I don't know about him, but I don't have any guy on my sac!
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 There's no more then 5 elite qb in the NFL, but teams still win and make the playoffs. Exactly my point.
San Jose Bills Fan Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Look. We were all spoiled by having Ted Washington, Pat Williams, and Sam Adams. We had Washington and Williams overlap here. I remember we'd put them together in some packages and other teams simply could not run on us. Tennessee was a GREAT running team with Eddie George. But they couldn't do squat against us. They still beat us but even in defeat, it was satisfying that we stuffed their running game. I think psychologically speaking, this is what's at the root of this almost irrational desire to get an elite space eater. Trouble is, there might not even be one in this draft. It's the defensive analog to the desire to build the offensive line for a power running game. Who wouldn't want the Bills to be a true smash-mouth football team? No one, of course. But there are other ways to win games in this 60% passing league and overdrafting a defensive tackle when there are elite pass rushers available is not a good strategy, IMO.
dollars 2 donuts Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 Oh man...just imagine what kind of team we would have if our D-Line were all gorillas! Personal foul penalties EVERYWHERE, but no way would that ball ever cross the LOS! Good call, ChumChums, but I would prefer elephants. We could pay them peanuts. BADUM-BUM-TSSH!!
Spiderweb Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 The good ones do a lot better than average. Wilfork just signed a 5 year $40 mill contract, for instance. Wilfork got a nice contract. Yet, I can't help thinking of Ted Washington as one of the best NT's to have played the game. His production compared to Wilfork's was double. in 1996 for example, Ted was in on 70 tackles, and had 3.5 sacks, and no one took up multiple blockers better than he.......
Mickey Posted April 20, 2010 Posted April 20, 2010 I guess my question is, why do these guys need to be so special. Take a guy like Lonnie Harvey, big guy 6'2' 340-345, pretty athletic. Why can't he just line up over the ball, move forward at the snap, clog up the gap, tie up the center and guard and let the linebacker make the tackle. As long he's got the size/ weight and can move fairly well, why would you need a top 10 pick to do that. It seem a 3-4 nose tackle has a very specific job to perform in a very limited amount of space. I would think these guys are a dime a dozen. I think you are failing to appreciate how hard it is to hold your ground when you have a couple of human mountains trying to move you out of the way. Size and weight are not all they need to do that job. Balance and leverage are just as important to these guys as any other player. It may not seem like quickness, laterally or otherwise, would be important for them but it is. It is just hard to appreciate that because they are moving pretty slow in comparison to WR's. etc. "Tying up two blockers" is an oversimplification of what these guys are doing. In any event, a good DT, whether its a NT in a 3-4 or some other defense, is hard to find. Seems every year the DT's go earlier than predicted which is just a reflection of the value of a good DT and how hard it is to find one.
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