How would Bruce Smith have fared in a 4-3 setup

[Frit0 Bandit0]

That Defense was the best D Smith could have been on ... between the blitzes, stunting and the fact Bruce did what he wanted most of the time (ask Talley)

[BADOLBILZ]

A couple of things - you're generally right, but White was better than you're saying. He played against tougher competition in terms of overall teams (let's not kid ourselves about the AFC East and NFC east in that era),and the Philly D - of which he was the undisputed best player - was certainly better than Buffalo's.

 

Another thing: Bruce played extremely well in the second Bills-Cowboys bowl, forcing Aikman to throw an INT in the first half after he beat Tuinei. The Cowboys spent the entire second half running plays away from him (and behind Erik Williams, who destroyed Hanson). As for the Giants game, he made a big stop on the Giants final possession and had a sack in the endzone. It's quite odd that people say that Elliot stoned him given that. He played poorly in the first Cowboys bowl (Tuinei commented afterward that he didn't play nearly as quick that game as he looked on film), and was basically useless in the Skins bowl (he was still hampered by injuries.

 

White was a great player, but he wasn't better than how I've portrayed him. That's what he was. People forget he had a lot of forgettable efforts in the playoffs and he probably left a lot of performance on the table with his average work habits.

 

The teams they played in the NFC East were better than the teams the Bills played in the AFC East. However, the RT's he played weren't better than the LT's Bruce faced. Are you implying that Bruce Armstrong and Richmond Webb weren't as good at pass blocking as NFC RT's? If so, I have to disagree.

 

And yes, the Eagles defense was better, but they were coached by a brilliant defensive coordinator and their talent was simply greater which is not a plus when evaluating him. Jerome Brown was a great player. Clyde Simmons was a dynamic pass rusher. Phil Hansen was the best Bruce played with, but not as impactful as Reggie's running mates. The rest of the Bills DL during the SB runs were a bag of donuts. Mike Golic could have started at NT for the Bills and he was the weak link in Philly.

 

And yes, Bruce was good in the playoffs. On the whole, he performed better in the playoffs than Reggie. But I really don't think anyone outside of Buffalo Bills fans remember it that way. It's too bad, but I don't feel bad for Bruce, he knows he is the greatest pass rusher ever and he appears oblivious to the fact that some people don't really remember how good he actually was.

[BADOLBILZ]

That Defense was the best D Smith could have been on ... between the blitzes, stunting and the fact Bruce did what he wanted most of the time (ask Talley)

 

Incorrect. The Bills played a much criticized read and react type 3-4 which often called for Bruce to begin the play in a two gap run defense approach. He became great at restarting a pass rush from that position and at shedding and making plays against the run down the line. He had a lot of chances to attack, but not like he would have in a "46" or even a Tampa front where DL play the run on their way to the QB. The Bills chose that style of "D" and they were winning at the time so all was fine, but Bruce would have been served better individually in many other types of defense.

[dave mcbride]

White was a great player, but he wasn't better than how I've portrayed him. That's what he was. People forget he had a lot of forgettable efforts in the playoffs and he probably left a lot of performance on the table with his average work habits.

 

The teams they played in the NFC East were better than the teams the Bills played in the AFC East. However, the RT's he played weren't better than the LT's Bruce faced. Are you implying that Bruce Armstrong and Richmond Webb weren't as good at pass blocking as NFC RT's? If so, I have to disagree.

 

And yes, the Eagles defense was better, but they were coached by a brilliant defensive coordinator and their talent was simply greater which is not a plus when evaluating him. Jerome Brown was a great player. Clyde Simmons was a dynamic pass rusher. Phil Hansen was the best Bruce played with, but not as impactful as Reggie's running mates. The rest of the Bills DL during the SB runs were a bag of donuts. Mike Golic could have started at NT for the Bills and he was the weak link in Philly.

 

And yes, Bruce was good in the playoffs. On the whole, he performed better in the playoffs than Reggie. But I really don't think anyone outside of Buffalo Bills fans remember it that way. It's too bad, but I don't feel bad for Bruce, he knows he is the greatest pass rusher ever and he appears oblivious to the fact that some people don't really remember how good he actually was.

Call me crazy, but I'd take both Erik Willams and Joe Jacoby over either of those guys. Doug Riesenberg wasn't horrible either. I always felt Webb was overrated. He was pretty good, but he wasn't great in my opinion.

[K-9]

How do you figure that? The Bills had a good offense and ran a lot of plays - typically more than the opponents. The fact that they ran the no huddle had no bearing on the number of total plays in a game. They rarely ran the hurry up - maybe at the beginning of games - but if they had the lead, they ran a no huddle in which the plays generally started shortly before the clock ran out. The idea that the Bills D was on the field for more plays than average is a myth. What keeps a defense on the field for more plays are only two things: an offense that can't stay on the field and a defense that can't stay off the field because they don't force punts.

 

In 1992, for instance, the offense ran 1087 plays and the defense 991: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/1992.htm

 

That same year, an average team - the 9-7 Colts - ran 969 offensive plays and 1004 defensive plays: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/1992.htm

 

'92 & '94 were the exception during the K-Gun era. In '90 they were -50 in terms of plays run, 91 -30, 93 -41, 95 -25, 96 -11. So perhaps using the term "FAR more plays" is overstating it a bit. My larger point of playing with nice leads the majority of the time is the important point. Our offense constantly forced other teams to become one-dimensional and our defense feasted on that situation.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[BADOLBILZ]

Call me crazy, but I'd take both Erik Willams and Joe Jacoby over either of those guys. Doug Riesenberg wasn't horrible either. I always felt Webb was overrated. He was pretty good, but he wasn't great in my opinion.

 

Richmond Webb plus Marino's quick release were the greatest pass protection in all of the NFL back in those days so I gotta say nay. Stats aren't everything, but they would bear this out.

 

Erik Williams career was very short, but he pretty much proved to be the antidote to Reggie. It's not like he and Reggie banged heads for a decade though. Jacoby was a star player but White matched up much better against him, much the same way that Strahan gave Jon Runyan a lot of long days. RT's just generally weren't, and aren't, at the level of talent as LT's. Erik Williams was a rarity. He was like Tony Boselli on the right side of the line. Like I said, that playoff game where Williams shut Reggie out was testimony to the fact that Reggie wasn't unstoppable.

 

Bottom line: Reggie overrated, Bruce underrated.

[CardinalScotts]

we pretty much nailed this one in my opinion.....many more sacks for the reasons already listed. Name another top DE who played or plays in a 3-4 it's just not there.

[dave mcbride]

White was a great player, but he wasn't better than how I've portrayed him. That's what he was. People forget he had a lot of forgettable efforts in the playoffs and he probably left a lot of performance on the table with his average work habits.

 

The teams they played in the NFC East were better than the teams the Bills played in the AFC East. However, the RT's he played weren't better than the LT's Bruce faced. Are you implying that Bruce Armstrong and Richmond Webb weren't as good at pass blocking as NFC RT's? If so, I have to disagree.

 

And yes, the Eagles defense was better, but they were coached by a brilliant defensive coordinator and their talent was simply greater which is not a plus when evaluating him. Jerome Brown was a great player. Clyde Simmons was a dynamic pass rusher. Phil Hansen was the best Bruce played with, but not as impactful as Reggie's running mates. The rest of the Bills DL during the SB runs were a bag of donuts. Mike Golic could have started at NT for the Bills and he was the weak link in Philly.

 

And yes, Bruce was good in the playoffs. On the whole, he performed better in the playoffs than Reggie. But I really don't think anyone outside of Buffalo Bills fans remember it that way. It's too bad, but I don't feel bad for Bruce, he knows he is the greatest pass rusher ever and he appears oblivious to the fact that some people don't really remember how good he actually was.

 

In the Eagles playoff loss to the Bears in 1988, he had one sack.

 

He had one sack the next year in their playoff loss to the Rams.

 

He had none the following season in their loss to the Skins.

 

In the January 1993 playoff game against the Cowboys, White had a sack (presumably against Erik Williams) in a blowout loss. The Cowboys had five sacks and ran away with it.

 

In the Packers January 1994 playoff victory over Detroit, he had two sacks. Against the Cowboys in the next game, he had none.

 

The next season, he had a sack in the Pack's first playoff victory against the Lions. Against the Cowboys, he had none in a blowout loss that got away early (35-9).

 

In January 1996, he had no sacks in the Pack's first two playoff victories (ATL and SF, a team who put their best tackle on the right side), but he had one against the Cowboys in the NFC championship game (a loss, but presumably against Erik Williams).

 

In January '97, he had no sacks in the first two playoff victories and three in the Super Bowl.

 

In January '98, he had none in the first game, one in the NFC championship, and nothing in the Super Bowl.

 

In his final season, he had none against the Niners in the first round.

 

Total playoff games: 18

Total sacks: 11

 

So, he basically he had a roughly 10-sack season over the course of his playoff career. Not too shabby given the very high level of competition.

[Frit0 Bandit0]

Incorrect. The Bills played a much criticized read and react type 3-4 which often called for Bruce to begin the play in a two gap run defense approach. He became great at restarting a pass rush from that position and at shedding and making plays against the run down the line. He had a lot of chances to attack, but not like he would have in a "46" or even a Tampa front where DL play the run on their way to the QB. The Bills chose that style of "D" and they were winning at the time so all was fine, but Bruce would have been served better individually in many other types of defense.

 

 

Okay..this is theoretical bull **** and I'm not going to disagree with your point

[BADOLBILZ]

In the Eagles playoff loss to the Bears in 1988, he had one sack.

 

He had one sack the next year in their playoff loss to the Rams.

 

He had none the following season in their loss to the Skins.

 

In the January 1993 playoff game against the Cowboys, White had a sack (presumably against Erik Williams) in a blowout loss. The Cowboys had five sacks and ran away with it.

 

In the Packers January 1994 playoff victory over Detroit, he had two sacks. Against the Cowboys in the next game, he had none.

 

The next season, he had a sack in the Pack's first playoff victory against the Lions. Against the Cowboys, he had none in a blowout loss that got away early (35-9).

 

In January 1996, he had no sacks in the Pack's first two playoff victories (ATL and SF, a team who put their best tackle on the right side), but he had one against the Cowboys in the NFC championship game (a loss, but presumably against Erik Williams).

 

In January '97, he had no sacks in the first two playoff victories and three in the Super Bowl.

 

In January '98, he had none in the first game, one in the NFC championship, and nothing in the Super Bowl.

 

In his final season, he had none against the Niners in the first round.

 

Total playoff games: 18

Total sacks: 11

 

So, he basically he had a roughly 10-sack season over the course of his playoff career. Not too shabby given the very high level of competition.

 

I will be the better man and acknowledge that you have made a good point. But I wasn't questioning his overall playoff production.

 

 

If I were to use your arguing technique, I would say something like, yeah, but he got 5 of those sacks in 2 games so he only got 6 in the other 16. That's not an argument, it's posturing. I've made a lot of good points which you ignore. I misquoted the shutout by Williams, but as you see he had just one total sack in 3 consecutive playoff losses to the Cowboys while with GB.

[BADOLBILZ]

Okay..this is theoretical bull **** and I'm not going to disagree with your point

 

If you've never heard of the Bills infamous "read and react" approach to the 3-4, you weren't particularly cognizant during the SB era.

[Frit0 Bandit0]

If you've never heard of the Bills infamous "read and react" approach to the 3-4, you weren't particularly cognizant during the SB era.

'

Heard of? Read and react was one of many terms used and that wasn't really an issue I would disagree with.

[BADOLBILZ]

'

Heard of? Read and react was one of many terms used and that wasn't really an issue I would disagree with.

 

Then what is the issue? Bruce did not play in a 1 gap defense, nor did he play in a defense that blitzed a lot, which is what some people seem to recall.

[BuffaloRebound]

That Defense was the best D Smith could have been on ... between the blitzes, stunting and the fact Bruce did what he wanted most of the time (ask Talley)

 

I agree with this. Bruce lined up over the Center a lot in passing situations and took advantage of his ridiculous 1st step. I also remember Bruce lining up wherever he thought the weak link on the offensive line was. There were many times when he wanted no part of Munoz or Richmond Webb and lined up somewhere else. Can't really do that in a 4 man front. It was a lot easier to shove Jeff Wright to a different gap.

[Steely Dan]

The Bills designed their defense around Smith. I remember the Bills doing a lot to free up Smith in passing situations from moving him around (I even remember him playing over the nose in some packages) to bringing in Bennett and Paup to play the opposite side. Smith basically played like a 4-3 DE. He was the primary rusher on his side, not Talley. I doubt that he would've done any better in another defense. He might have had more sacks in a blitz happy defense like the 46 but I doubt he could've had any more impact on the game than he had with the Bills.

 

One of my favorite BS plays was when he caused the Poorpiss center to commit a false start penalty when he looked up and saw BS standing over him at NT. I believe Smith said something like "Hello there." and grinned.

 

Bruce Smith is already the greatest pass rusher of the sack stat era, no question, but the objective of football is to win not get Bruce as many sacks as possible. Reggie was a better overall DE because he was dominant against both the run and the pass, could play multiple positions on the line and won a championship.

 

Bruce played NT sometimes in the Bills system. So the multiple positions is a weak argument.

 

 

we pretty much nailed this one in my opinion.....many more sacks for the reasons already listed. Name another top DE who played or plays in a 3-4 it's just not there.

 

What he said!

 

I'd estimate 250.

[dave mcbride]

I will be the better man and acknowledge that you have made a good point. But I wasn't questioning his overall playoff production.

 

 

If I were to use your arguing technique, I would say something like, yeah, but he got 5 of those sacks in 2 games so he only got 6 in the other 16. That's not an argument, it's posturing. I've made a lot of good points which you ignore. I misquoted the shutout by Williams, but as you see he had just one total sack in 3 consecutive playoff losses to the Cowboys while with GB.

But don't all good pass rushing DEs have multiple sack games that pad their stats? I'm sure it's the same for Smith. He had one sack in four super bowls, after all.

 

He also had two sacks against Williams in three games, not one in three. White lined up against Dallas four times in the playoffs, but only faced Williams three times because Williams missed the January 1995 game due to a knee injury (caused by his infamous car crash): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Williams. Williams also played essentially ten full seasons for Dallas, not just a handful ( http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WillEr01.htm ).

 

 

Having said all of this, I would choose Smith, just like you. But I do think there's an argument for White. It's not an open and shut case.

 

Btw, I haven't ignored any of your points - I basically agree with you. In terms of the particulars re: Smith, your analysis of his game is entirely spot on. I'm just offering an alternative view.

[DaGimp]

he would have been the next erik flowers

[RkFast]

Look at the year Jeffcoat was on the Bills, where they went to a 4-3 on passing downs.

 

GOD, that was an amazing defense.

[Lurker]

I agree with this. Bruce lined up over the Center a lot in passing situations and took advantage of his ridiculous 1st step.

My memory may be foggy, but I remember Bruce running many more stunts/curls with Wright than starting out in the middle. His ability to run full speed through the center-guard gap while dipping his shoulder below the OL's punch was unlike anyone elses.

[tennesseeboy]

Smith would have been a hall of famer in either scheme. He was one of those players who really defined a position. I actually think you have to put him in the class of people like Lawrence Taylor at linebacker, Peyton Manning at qb, and Jerry Rice at wide receiver. You'll not see his like again.