The ONLY reason we only won 6 games is....

[PDaDdy]

I agree 2 TDs from our starting RB is not acceptable. Really though this is just a product of our pathetic offense as a whole last year. The Bills could not get 1st downs and get into the redzone.

 

 

True points! Many factors are involved and even comparing the 2007/2008 supporting casts to the 2009 supporting cast is difficult. Some people think we had better players. Some think we had worse.

 

This is a very simplistic way to put it but I like Jackson when there is no hole to run through as he is a better cut back runner imo. Lynch seems to head for where the hole is supposed to be whether it is there or not. When the hole is there to run through, I like Lynch. If our line can get him past the line of scrimmage he is going to truck dudes. Jackson would be the hardest runner on several teams but Lynch runs noticeably harder than Jackson. Last year was admittedly a slow and down year for Lynch for the reasons mentioned previously.

 

Jackson earned himself more carries no doubt but in my opinion Lynch needs to be option 1A with Jackson 1B. He should certainly get a larger share of carries in the red zone as he proves he out scores Jackson 2 to 1 in the TD department.

[PDaDdy]

I love all the people on this board that love to stroke Marshawn as this "amazing" RB that is the best thing since OJ Simpson. I will say this is not a post where I try to compare Marshawn and Freddy. My opinion is that Freddy (as old as he is and with the small amount he has left in the tank) is a better back at this point.

 

Nobody is comparing him to OJ. At least not in a good way. LOL. Quit making things up. How can the better back score half the TDs? Don't bother answering because I know you don't have the integrity.

Lets start off the field first. The guy has always been a trouble maker.

-June of 06, Lynch was shot at inside his vehicle outside his high school alma mater.

-January of 07, Accused of sexual assualt on his former girlfriend

-June of 08, Involved in a hit and run

-February of 2009, Arrested for an unregistered loaded weapon while smoking marijuana in a vehicle

-December of 2009, Accused of stealing $20 from a wife of a Buffalo Policeman

 

Hate him for his off field BS but when each has had a chance to be the undisputed starter on the field Lynch scores more than Jackson to the tune of 2 -1. Makes him not as good of a man but he is a better RB.

 

Now not every incident was his fault, nor was every incident that big of an issue. The stealing $20 thing sounds like a joke gone bad. The shooting and sexual assualt sounds like wrong place wrong time and a drunken night trying to make up with an ex turned bad (weve all done that, I think). But the point is the guy cant stay out of trouble. Every year since 06 he has had some kind of issue with the law, his fault or not. Hes already had a 3 game suspension and is only a drunken night on Chippewa away from getting a year slapped on him from the Commissioner.

 

Now to his on the field accomplishments. He is average at best.

2007: 13 Games Played, 280 Att, 1,115 yards, 4.0 avg, 7 TD's, 18 rec, 184 rec yards, Ranked 11th in Rushing Yards

2008: 15 Games Played, 250 Att, 1,036 yards, 4.1 avg, 8 TD's, 47 rec, 300 rec yards, Ranked 13th in Rushing Yards

2009: 13 Games Played, 120 Att, 450 yards, 3.8 avg, 2 TD's, 28 rec, 179 rec yards, Ranked 45th in Rushing Yards

 

He has arguably gotten worse over his career with yards, TD's, Rec's, Attempts

 

2009 he was not the starter and had fewer than half the carries. Where are Jackson's numbers for the same time period? Jackson has gotten worse and scored fewer TDs as the #1 getting more than twice the touches. That is a HUGE drop off in per carry production.

 

Lynch has shown that he has a hard time hitting the hole behind his blockers as he often runs up to their backs and trys to push entire piles by himself, all while tip-toe'ing at the line of scrimmage and not making clear cut decisions when he gets the ball in his hands. Suprisingly its not much different from his decisions off the field that often get him in trouble.

 

Already agreed upon to an extent. Lynch definitely has off field issues and has some maturing to do but on the field he is the more productive RB. Jackson as stated I think is a better cut back runner when there is no hole. When there is a hole Lynch will push the entire pile by himself. Some call that dedication, determination and hard work.

 

Lynch has all the talent in a RB that any team would/could ask for. But his dedication to his career, and his bad decisions may cost him that very same career. If he makes one more bad mistake he will be out of football for a year and that might as well be for good.

 

Very true and he is a risk because of those issues.

[devldog131]

we didn't give this guy 300 carries...only 120 booooooo....

 

 

Yeah, you're right... if we'd let him hesitate in the backfield and wait for the hole to close 300 times there is now way we would have won six games... we might have won four.

[PDaDdy]

You appear to have a reading comprehension problem. I said nothing about either Lynch or Jackson. In fact, I don't even care, and don't have a dog in this fight. What I was saying is that as someone who grew up in the 1970s and 1980s, I can state with complete confidence that TDs were considered a negligible stat for RBs. That was because it is correct -- once a team is inside the five yard line, they have a decent shot of scoring a rushing TD. Who they hand it off to doesn't really matter that much provided the RBs are competent and can be trusted to not fumble; what matters most at that point on the field is that the offensive line is good and that the threat to pass the ball exists. I mean, someone is gonna rush for TDs at that point on the field; what matters is getting there. Whether it's Fred Taylor v. Maurice Jones-Drew or Kenny Davis v. Thurman Thomas or Thomas Jones v. Shon Greene doesn't actually matter; all of those sets of backs were/are equally capable. Both Lynch and Jackson look to be about the same to me in that regard, although since Lynch is a poorer receiver, maybe that weighs into the equation at some small level. Anyway, teams that get inside the 10 are more likely to get those rushing TDs than teams that don't.

 

There's a reason that the Bills don't score many rushing TDs, and it has everything to do with the fact that the offense is lousy at moving the ball down the field and nothing to do with the quality of their running backs. In other words, what matters is a team's ability to move the ball between the 20s. By your logic, Butch Rolle was a good player. However, the reason he scored a lot is because the team he played on consistently moved the ball down the field into the red zone.

 

If you really think that people cared about rushing TDs (as opposed to yards and YPC) before fantasy football, I'm guessing you didn't watch much back then. It truly is a more recent phenomenon. If it wasn't, people would still be crowing about drafting Johnny Hector and Charles White on their fantasy teams in 1987, Greg Bell (!) in 1988/1989, and Cleveland Gary and Derrick Fenner in 1990. Those were the league leaders.

 

Unfortunately I am on the older side as well. I watched football back then. The only thing that has changed in my opinion is that football has become like baseball due to fantasy football and the internet. Baseball was always stat driven. Knowing a pitchers era, a guys batting average, how many runs and home runs a hitter had etc. Football just caught up from that perspective. TDs are pretty much the whole point of the game. If you aren't scoring them generally you aren't winning. Maybe you want a team that can march up and down the field and punt or kick field goals. ME? I want a team that scores 6 pts. Lynch does that twice as often as Freddy.

 

TDs for RBs have always mattered. It is as I have stated a team effort and a team game. I don't think that our team, talent or scheme is very different at all the last 3 years. The line still sucks, the QB still sucks, the offensive scheme still sucks. In spite of all this when Marshawn is the starter he doubles the scoring production of Jackson when he is the starter. That can't be ignored or easily have excuses made for that undeniable fact.

 

As mentioned before. Please don't extrapolate this line of reasoning to make comparisons to other teams or other RBs. I am talking about the Bills where for the last 3 years we haven't been too much different. SO it is possible to make comparisons of talent at one position with more relevance than other situations. We are talking about starting RBs here. Others have tried to throw out comparisons and examples on other teams using goal line and special purpose backs but it's like comparing apples and oranges. Both fruit but not the same.

[PDaDdy]

Yeah, you're right... if we'd let him hesitate in the backfield and wait for the hole to close 300 times there is now way we would have won six games... we might have won four.

 

 

Until we get a line that open up holes like the rest of the NFL Jackson is probably the better option. Once we get a competent line Lynch is the guy. We also have to remember that Jackson probably has about 6 or 7 years or experience and maturity on Lynch. You don't see Lynch tippie toeing when there is actually a hole to run through.

 

I would hope by the time Lynch turns 31 he can make cut back runs as well as Jackson.

[dave mcbride]

Unfortunately I am on the older side as well. I watched football back then. The only thing that has changed in my opinion is that football has become like baseball due to fantasy football and the internet. Baseball was always stat driven. Knowing a pitchers era, a guys batting average, how many runs and home runs a hitter had etc. Football just caught up from that perspective. TDs are pretty much the whole point of the game. If you aren't scoring them generally you aren't winning. Maybe you want a team that can march up and down the field and punt or kick field goals. ME? I want a team that scores 6 pts. Lynch does that twice as often as Freddy.

 

TDs for RBs have always mattered. It is as I have stated a team effort and a team game. I don't think that our team, talent or scheme is very different at all the last 3 years. The line still sucks, the QB still sucks, the offensive scheme still sucks. In spite of all this when Marshawn is the starter he doubles the scoring production of Jackson when he is the starter. That can't be ignored or easily have excuses made for that undeniable fact.

 

As mentioned before. Please don't extrapolate this line of reasoning to make comparisons to other teams or other RBs. I am talking about the Bills where for the last 3 years we haven't been too much different. SO it is possible to make comparisons of talent at one position with more relevance than other situations. We are talking about starting RBs here. Others have tried to throw out comparisons and examples on other teams using goal line and special purpose backs but it's like comparing apples and oranges. Both fruit but not the same.

 

I guess what I'm basically arguing is that yards/YPC/carries are the independent variable, and that rushing TDs are the dependent variable. I simply don't buy that Lynch has a better (or worse) "nose for the end zone" than Jackson. I think whatever difference there is is purely a product of the opportunities available.

[PDaDdy]

I guess what I'm basically arguing is that yards/YPC/carries are the independent variable, and that rushing TDs are the dependent variable.

 

 

I think that everything in football is dependent upon something else. I don't know that there is a single stat that I could point to that isn't at least partially dependent upon some else's production. It is perhaps the ultimate team sport. My eye ball test is that Jackson has better ypc and possibly was the better choice "this year" because he works better with our crappy line.

 

Behind an average to good line it's Lynch all the way for me. In the pro bowl a year ago Lynch had the best YPC of all the RB's. Of all the RBs he was also the guy called in on a critical 4th down conversion run. Even though it was a pro bowl OL he was running behind it was a pro bowl DL he was going up against.

 

We got a glimpse of what Lynch could be if we put a line in front of him.

[NewEra]

I avoided this thread for long enough... and it was a bad as I thought. But one thing I came away with is, most Bills fans still want Lynch on this team and think he can succeed. I'm his biggest fan, yet it's obvious Fred was MUCH better than him last year and IS our #1 RB. Hopefully Beastmode will take last year as a learning experience and come back a little lighter and more motivated to become a great player, and be the complimentary back that we NEED. I know I'm pulling for him.

[sarpilot]

Chris Johnson 358 carries last season....Thurman Thomas...all the SB years...never less than 288 carries...Peterson 314 carries...all the great RB's get 300 carries or pretty close to it...and do great things...we run the ball 300 times with Lynch...we win...period...end of story...QB this QB that...Defense this Defense that....Lynch gets the carries...we win...guaranteed...Gailey gets him the ball enough and gets Freddy 200 carries or so...we are 11-5 easily

 

Good point but it may not be as simple as that. First of all its hard to stick with the run when you are behind in every game. Also the other team might just know that you have a strong running game and a lousey passing game. They stack against the run and make you pass to beat them. Even the worst defense can take away the run if they sell out on every play. You must must have a balanced attack to take advantage of that. We were unable to make other teams pay for not playing honest.

[mrags]

PDiddy,

 

You are certainly stroking his epeen like he is the best thing out there.

 

I told you that I wouldnt start my post with a Lynch vs Jackson comparison. I did that last summer and I proved to be right when many people (Im sure yourself included) were proved wrong by the amount of playing time Lynch received on the field. Jackson finsished with an avg of 4.5 yards/carry in 09 (higher than Lynch ever has), 1,062 yards on only 237 attempts, and 46 receptions.

 

Like I said I wasnt going to focus on Jackson. I think Lynch is a good back but he is nothing more than good, and most likely he is average at best. That doesnt mean that I think Freddy is great either. But he is the better of the 2 backs, and is more dedicated to this team and his career and wont cost the team 3+ games if he even sneezes in the wrong direction. Lynch will not be resigned when his contract is up and will have trouble finding a home somewhere in the league as a starter for the remainder of his career. He doesnt move the pile much better than Jackson does, and unfortunately thats all he can do (run into the backs of his own blockers), and if I had UTube access at work I would pick out plenty of links to prove that he doesnt have good vision. Its no coincidence he was easily benched in favor of Jackson. The only reason he started the previous 2 years over Jackson is because he had the 1st round draft pick hung over his head (same reason why little Donte is still starting as well).

 

So I will make this clear. It is not all about TD's. There were years that Priest Holmes had the most TD's in the league and broke records for TD's and the team either didnt, or barely made the playoffs. Football is a team sport. The rest of the team matters. If you think it is only about TD's then you need to go to football school. Jamie Mueller was good at scoring TD's inside the 5yrd line. Does that make him better than Thurman or Kenny Davis? Your out of your mind.

 

Im not saying its not important to have a running back, or any player for that matter that has a nose for the end zone. But you cant base Lynch TD's and Jacksons TD's as your only argument. For the time they started their yards and yards per carry are very similar. Lynch had 6 more "rushing" TD's than Jackson had in his best year as starter. You are comparing apples to oranges at this point since they were in seperate years. Lynch also did it with Jason Peters (everyone's 2nd favorite player on this board) as is LT while Jackson did it with Bell, Scott, Meredith. Did you use that into your equation?

 

How about you go find out how many times the team was in the red zone when Lynch was starting in 07 and 08 vs Jackson in 09. My guess would be we were in the red zone much more often in those years than last year since we sucked at just about every aspect of the game last season. Jackson and Byrd were just about the only bright spots on the team when everyone else sucked.

 

With all that being said. The best rushing performance weve had since McGahee left is 1,100'ish yards by a single rusher. That is absolute crap!!! no matter who is our starter. 68.75 yards/game is horrible. When the league is passing more and rushers are still putting up 1500+ yard seasons you have a problem if your back is barely reaching 1k.

 

On to the league passing more. It has completely debunked your claim that all we need to do is run more and we will win more games. Almost every team in the playoffs in 09 were pass first teams. So you are completely dilusional with your claim that we simply need to run more to win.

New England

Indianapolis

Cincinnati

San Diego

Dallas

Philadelphia

Green Bay

New Orleans

Arizona

 

vs:

 

New York Jets

Baltimore

Minnesota

 

Ya, Have fun with that one. Im done. There is nothing more I can say that will make you realize your opinion is not the most important one in the world. Its an opinion of what you think and has no factual evidence what so ever.

 

Have a nice day. Keep thinking your always right.