PDaDdy Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Sorry, I stand corrected. My bad on Levitre. I also agree that we shouldn' trust a single source. Notice that I said "assuming profootballfocus.com has accurate" data. Data is way too easily manipulated so I, personally, don't put too much faith in it. Evaluating talent is very, very hard and there are so many subtleties to it. I agree 100%. My apologies. You did say "assuming". I know I bang it to death but that is why I personally put stock in pro bowl nominations. Evaluating talent is indeed sometimes very hard especially with positions like offensive linemen. Although there is probably no perfect method I most highly value the opinion of "current" players, coaches, GMs and possibly scouts who all determine who makes it to the pro bowl.
PDaDdy Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 Favre's numbers were not great (certainly not "the best" as the Pro Bowl demands) prior to his injury. They were awful after. Yet his numbers were outstanding this year, depsite playing with a rotator cuff tear. Perhaps you aren't aware that the fan vote is 1/3 of the Pro Bowl vote. Fan voting continues until right before Christmas. There are a lot of Jets fans in New York. Pretty simple. You think WNY is hypercritical of its sports teams? Have you lived in downstate? How about Philly? Chicago? It's a big world--go see it. Actually thank you for mentioning that. The fan vote DOES matter. I wasn't aware to the extent of it comprising a 1/3 weighting. I have been educated. Again thank you. Knowing this, doesn't it make it all the more amazing that a guy so hated by the fans of his old and current team STILL made it to the pro bowl on the strength of the people whose opinions matter most? The players, coaches and GMs. I think that actually makes my point even stronger.
Gabe Northern Posted March 26, 2010 Posted March 26, 2010 I have two words regarding O-linemen in the Pro Bowl: RUBEN...BROWN. 'nuff said. PTR Least appreciated Bill of all-time. Haven't had a guy open holes in the interior like him since. Sure, he held a lot and got called for it from time to time. But if you don't have any appreciation for his career after having this long to reflect on it, you are crazy my friend.
BADOLBILZ Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Peters is no longer a Bill, and who wants to live in the past? Move on, please. It's always funny when someone walks into a detailed discussion and feels it's important to notify everyone that they have no opinion. LAMP much?
Chilly Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Yeah, two guys who watched the highlights, and the argument is over. Look at the stats and the season instead. http://profootballfocus.com/by_position.ph...&numgames=1 Last year, he was the sixth best pass blocker in the league, and the only reason he wasn't much better was that he was gimping around on an injured ankle for 3 or 4 games, yet playing because they needed him. Before his injury in the fifth game of the year, he was listed as the 3rd best overall tackle. Among other results of that trade, it is extremely likely to cause us to use our #9 draft pick to replace Peters and therefore preventing us from getting Spiller, Dan Williams, McClain, or another potential difference maker. Worst trade we've made in years. This post is quite hilarious. You're bashing someone because they gave an opinion, and then your proof is a "stat" that is, and I quote from the site: "The cumulative PFF.com rating of the player's pass blocking only". And when you look at what makes up that rating, here it is: What do we Grade? [back to Top] We grade every single offensive, defensive and special teams play of every regular season and post season game. On each play we log a lot of additional statistical data such as the actual point of attack on a running play or the location a pass was thrown before we then analyze the play and grade the players. A typical line of analysis will include the player, his grade, if on this occasion there was a 1 on 1 confrontation (i.e. DLT vs. RT) the other player, his grade and a comment detailing why the grade was given for example: "The DLT stunted around the DLE and was not picked up by the RT despite the RG taking the DLE cleanly, allowing the DLT to hit the QB just after he threw at 2.8 seconds" Therefore we capture a lot more data than is currently displayed on the site but this provides us with a clear and easily accessible audit trail for all our analysis. The site as it currently stands (August 2008) is effectively a demonstration site of the 2007 season with over half the regular season games and all the Post Season games completed. Note: we have only completed the Player Participation for Week 1 and the Post Season games as this was a "later" amendment to ensure normalization (see below) was as accurate as possible. How do we Grade? [back to Top] Each grade given is between +2 and -2 with 0.5 increments and an average of 0. A positive intervention in the game rates a positive grading and vice versa. Very (very) little draws a +/-2 rating. In fact the distribution of non-zero grades is like this: +2.0 0.01% +1.5 0.3% +1.0 16% +0.5 37% (unbalanced because of the way WRs and HBs are rated) -0.5 24% -1.0 22% -1.5 0.5% -2.0 0.01% The grading takes into account many things and effectively brings "intelligence" to raw statistics. For example a raw stat might tell you a Tackle conceded a sack. However, how long did he protect the QB for before he gave it up? Additionally when did he give it up? If it was within the last two minutes on a potentially game tying drive it may be rather more important than when his team is running out the clock in a 30 point blow out. The average grade or what we would typically expect of the average player is therefore defined as zero. In reality, the vast majority of grades on each individual play are zero and what we are grading are the exceptions to this. Rating a LT as anything other than zero for a successfully completed backside seal block on a DRE is going to a level of complexity beyond the scope of this site. The "Rules" of Grading [back to Top] Because of the nature of the roles, each position is graded in a slightly different way and the definitions for each run to many pages. Whilst I'm not going to explain exactly how we grade because to some degree that's our IP (Emphasis on P as opposed to I) and to another it's just extremely tedious, below are a few of the key principles we use when grading: DON'T GUESS If you're not 80% sure what's gone on then don't grade the play. The grades should stand up to scrutiny and criticism. It's far better to say you're not sure than be wrong. However, this is not an excuse for chickening out on making a judgment. What we definitely DO NOT do is raise or lower the grading because we're not sure. Giving -0.5 rather than -1 or -1.5 because you can't be certain what went on is wrong. The correct score is 0. WE ARE NOT SCOUTS We are not grading style or technique; just result. We aren't looking for players with potential who have been badly coached or grading on technique. We've all heard the terms knee-bender, stiff hips, inconsistent footwork or over-extension etc. but as far as we're concerned it doesn't matter whether you know what they mean or not. All we care about is the result; did that linemen make the block he tried to make. This is Professional Football and the talent level is high enough and consistent enough to generally assume that the player at least attempted to do what their assignment was on that play. YOU DO NOT HAVE TO APPORTION BLAME ON EVERY PLAY On each play there is often a "winner". If the Defense holds an Offense on third and three to a one yard gain they are usually considered to have "won". It's possible that everyone on Offense carried out their assignments properly and the play still went wrong; that's not their fault. Sometimes the play is badly designed or sometimes the defense just does a great job. Ostensibly this site is looking at player performance, not that of the coaches. GREAT PLAYERS SCREW UP TOO One of the biggest annoyances to me over the years is commentators making excuses for players; well should we say "some" players. Oh it's Brett Favre so he couldn't possibly have overthrown the WR; Greg Jennings must just have run the wrong route etc. We look at each player as just a number rather than on reputation. We treat Walter Jones as Seattle #71 and see what comes out at the end. ZERO (0.0) IS THE AVERAGE GRADE If a player does something you would normally expect then this scores 0. If a LB makes an unblocked tackle 5 yards down the field or a linemen holds back a rusher for 4+ seconds. This is scored as 0. Grades are given as things which reasonably considered better or worse than average. Yeah, really scientific, irrefutable stat right there.
snamsnoops Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Yes I did. If you are one of those guys that questions the ruler when you don't like the measurement we will never agree. I prefer to stick to the facts of what we know and not question accepted standards of recognition for performance if I don't like the result. Don't play madden by the way. And me personally, instead of putting all my trust in Randy Cross I will put it in the players, coaches and GMs that made Peters a pro bowler. But HEY.....what do they know???? You have opened my eyes. I would rather believe the opinion of a rare dissenting voice and a nameless, faceless internet forum user who is devoid of any credibility what so ever So u r saying you dont have Madden 2010. Peters is really good in that game!
iinii Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Yeah, and radio talk shows (and Bills posters) say that Shoebel sucks too. What's your point? Everyone has an opinion?
bowery4 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Please no more JP (either one) threads. 6 pages of the past is just stupid and I didn't read it. Oh and btw we should have just given him a raise after his 1st probowl at LT and he would still be here. Bad FO not to reward a guy for good work, stupid to let it fester.
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 This post is quite hilarious. You're bashing someone because they gave an opinion, and then your proof is a "stat" that is, and I quote from the site: "The cumulative PFF.com rating of the player's pass blocking only". And when you look at what makes up that rating, here it is: Yeah, really scientific, irrefutable stat right there. WOW...This will be the second time I have said "thank you" to a fellow forum member today. I must be getting soft. LOL. THANK YOU. Usually I think outside the box and catch things like this but WOW! If what you say is true it ignores what is quite possible Peters' strength, run blocking. Throw that in and we would likely see the highly ranked pro bowl left tackle that I see with my eyes despite the irresponsible use of statistics smear campaign some have been waging. People also like to conveniently forget that over the last year and a half Peters has been battling a groin injury and recovery from surgery. No one man is responsible for a team stat but this lead me to take look at our rushing TD production Peters' last year when he was hurt, fat, lazy and gave up on us vs this past year without him. WITHOUT Peters and our GREAT young rookie guards with an upgrade at center. 2009 6 TDs Ranked 29th WITH Peters and a bunch of over paid bums. 2008 12 TDs Ranked 11th We didn't miss him much did we? Food for thought haters!!!!
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Please no more JP (either one) threads. 6 pages of the past is just stupid and I didn't read it.Oh and btw we should have just given him a raise after his 1st probowl at LT and he would still be here. Bad FO not to reward a guy for good work, stupid to let it fester. As they say if you don't want to hear about it don't read it. You didn't read it but still you felt it necessary to respond on a topic that apparently some people are still passionate and continue to talk about even though you tell us no. I think we'll make our own decision thank you. You do however hit the nail 100% on the head in that we should have taken care of him earlier after his first pro bowl and would still have him on our roster and have kept him for less than what the Eagles had to pay him. People will continue to talk about it as long as their are people that somehow inexplicably think it was a good move and JP isn't a great/pro bowl LT. It's fun to shoot down their lame explanations and bogus stats they throw out there. There are some real inventive ones though like the guy that provides the ranking of ALL tackles not just LT and says Peters is way down on the list. I was just recently educated to the fact that these stats of mysterious origin are for pass blocking only. Shame on them!
K-9 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Pro Bowl voting is a farce. Votes are cast by the coaches, players, and fans with each faction accounting for 1/3 of the vote. GM, Scouts, FO secretaries, etc, have NO say. The problem is that fans can vote as often as they want for a player while the players and coaches can only vote once. When the fans' vote carries more weight than that of the players and coaches something is going to be skewed. Secondly, with regard to the voting of players and coaches, ballots are cast for players that coaches and players haven't even seen play in a particular season, let alone played against. Past reputation plays more a part in that facet of the voting than anything else. The players and coaches, in the absence of having seen or played against players they vote for, simply have nothing much else to go on OTHER than past reputation. That's why deserving guys go years without a Pro Bowl nomination while others get in even though they don't deserve to go (see Brown, Reuben). The Pro Bowl vote that carries the most validity is that of the alternates who are selected by the Pro Bowl game coaches as substitutes for injured players. I'll save the ALL PRO vs. Pro Bowl discussion for another time. One is far more prestigious than the other. I wonder why. GO BILLS!!!
oak tree 12 Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Are dumb enough to think that this guy sits around and watches every game several times and focuses on each player so as to be able to give a better more accurate assessment of his talents than the guys that with play with him, the guys that play against him, the coaches and the GMs? Please! It is sad the lengths people will go to try to discredit a 3 consecutive time pro bowler because they have a grudge against him and his business acumen. You cling to the opinion of your 2 heroes and ignore everything else. Ya, I've been called arrogant before...still doesn't preclude me from being right Admittedly that does frustrate some. Often it's those who are supposedly or are perceived to be as arrogant as myself. did i say i say i have a grudge against peters. i have an issue with message board GM's thinking they know more than cross or banks both are former great players and better judges of whether a player preforms well or not than any one on this board. especially cross who is a game analyst and views game tapes as part of his job let alone the fact that he is a former great offensive lineman. i'll stick with his assessment of peters play. thats my beef with guys like you!
SuperKillerRobots Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 I think the underlying reasons for the trade and the varied opinions on it is just that Peters has athletic ability and natural talents nearing on Bruce Smith to the point that he can play the game of football at a high level without much preparation against people who prepare like their lives depend on it. There is no debating this. The issue with him was that he did not always play hard on every play and was not a leader on the field or in his preparations. The question was do you want to pay a guy $10mm per year who can be dominant when he wants to, but will also take plays off. There was also an added factor of what a large contract with guaranteed money would do to his already questionable motivation. So the question becomes, do you pay a guy the money and accept the fact that there will be times when he can't be counted on or do you decide that's unacceptable and get rid of him? A valid question in this matter is if they had drafted Oher last year instead of Maybin (or Maybin becomes dominant in the next year or two) does this conversation happen? Probably not. If you're going to pay an LT $10mm per year, you'd like him to be in the top 5 in the league at least, if not better. I personally think at the best Peters is on the fringe of the top 5 in the league at LT right now. Going by that logic, it's hard to say whether he is worth it to the Eagles now or would have been worth it to the Bills. One thing that should be said is that Peters did seem to get dinged up a bit and you have to wonder if the lack of preparation in the offseason lead to that. So I think what I'm trying to get at here is it a question of how good Peters is or how bad the replacement was. I don't think you can tie the two together in a fair argument, outside of one illustrating how poorly the previous decision-makers did with their overall strategy. Peters is a good player and had we signed him, we wouldn't be talking about the LT position right now outside of debating whether he is playing up to his contract. What are those mental lapses/screw-ups worth to a team? Maybe on a team with strong leadership in place already the light won't be focused on him so much and he can earn his money and not have to lead by example and be the most accountable player out there. On the Bills, he would have had to take on those roles for that type of money and in my opinion he wouldn't have been successful doing that. Maybe it was more of a situation of us needing more than he could offer at the time, while Philly only needed him to play LT. As far as his play, you have to say he has the ability to be the best in football, but you also can't deny him taking plays off or not stepping up to the competition (or whatever you want to call it) and some of those times have been in big games for them. Is that a quality you want in a LT that you are paying top dollar?
Russ 'Em Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Pro Bowl voting is a farce. Votes are cast by the coaches, players, and fans with each faction accounting for 1/3 of the vote. GM, Scouts, FO secretaries, etc, have NO say. The problem is that fans can vote as often as they want for a player while the players and coaches can only vote once. When the fans' vote carries more weight than that of the players and coaches something is going to be skewed. Secondly, with regard to the voting of players and coaches, ballots are cast for players that coaches and players haven't even seen play in a particular season, let alone played against. Past reputation plays more a part in that facet of the voting than anything else. The players and coaches, in the absence of having seen or played against players they vote for, simply have nothing much else to go on OTHER than past reputation. That's why deserving guys go years without a Pro Bowl nomination while others get in even though they don't deserve to go (see Brown, Reuben). The Pro Bowl vote that carries the most validity is that of the alternates who are selected by the Pro Bowl game coaches as substitutes for injured players. I'll save the ALL PRO vs. Pro Bowl discussion for another time. One is far more prestigious than the other. I wonder why. GO BILLS!!! K9 I'm so glad you laid this all out there. It seems that maybe no one on this thread has ever filled out an online pro bowl ballot. Do you think that a Seattle fan who watches little to no Miami Dolphins football could tell weather or not Jason Taylor had a probowl year last year? Probably not. Is Jason Taylor a household name? Yeah. Has he been to previous Probowls? yeah. Did I see him on Dancing with the Stars? yeah. Well you know what, I'm voting for him. Easy as that. For posters who seem to have all the stats and answers to back up there flaky positions, it is funny to watch them get caught with their pants down.
Russ 'Em Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 did i say i say i have a grudge against peters. i have an issue with message board GM's thinking they know more than cross or banks both are former great players and better judges of whether a player preforms well or not than any one on this board. especially cross who is a game analyst and views game tapes as part of his job let alone the fact that he is a former great offensive lineman. i'll stick with his assessment of peters play. thats my beef with guys like you! +1 If you don't think that a former superbowl winning offensive lineman who gets paid to analyze games and carry on educated conversations about them, hasn't watched, in your opinion, 1 of the 5 best LTs in the game today then you are crazy. Yes this is actually someones job. Unlike you PDaddy they get paid to know there ****, instead of engaging in forum debates just to get there rocks off.
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 did i say i say i have a grudge against peters. i have an issue with message board GM's thinking they know more than cross or banks both are former great players and better judges of whether a player preforms well or not than any one on this board. especially cross who is a game analyst and views game tapes as part of his job let alone the fact that he is a former great offensive lineman. i'll stick with his assessment of peters play. thats my beef with guys like you! It's certainly not my opinion vs Cross and Banks. It is the rest of the NFL that comprises 2/3s of the voting for the probowl!!!! Don't try to make it me vs them. It's those two vs everyone else whose opinion really does matter. Given that fan voting is 1/3 and apparently Buffalo AND Philly fans think the guy is overrated it would appear that that 2/3s vote of the players, coaches and GMs out ways and over came unfavorable fan opinion.
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Pro Bowl voting is a farce. Votes are cast by the coaches, players, and fans with each faction accounting for 1/3 of the vote. GM, Scouts, FO secretaries, etc, have NO say. The problem is that fans can vote as often as they want for a player while the players and coaches can only vote once. When the fans' vote carries more weight than that of the players and coaches something is going to be skewed. Secondly, with regard to the voting of players and coaches, ballots are cast for players that coaches and players haven't even seen play in a particular season, let alone played against. Past reputation plays more a part in that facet of the voting than anything else. The players and coaches, in the absence of having seen or played against players they vote for, simply have nothing much else to go on OTHER than past reputation. That's why deserving guys go years without a Pro Bowl nomination while others get in even though they don't deserve to go (see Brown, Reuben). The Pro Bowl vote that carries the most validity is that of the alternates who are selected by the Pro Bowl game coaches as substitutes for injured players. I'll save the ALL PRO vs. Pro Bowl discussion for another time. One is far more prestigious than the other. I wonder why. GO BILLS!!! Your logic is flawed. No matter how many times the fans vote it counts for 1/3. This means that players and coaches, who each account for a 1/3, voted for Peters in such numbers that it over came a negative fan vote. Do you see those flaws in your thinking? If the fans hate him and the fans count for 1/3 the vote that means the fans didn't vote him in. Likely very much to the contrary. You can't use fan vote to discredit his nomination when the fans think he is over rated.
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 +1 If you don't think that a former superbowl winning offensive lineman who gets paid to analyze games and carry on educated conversations about them, hasn't watched, in your opinion, 1 of the 5 best LTs in the game today then you are crazy. Yes this is actually someones job. Unlike you PDaddy they get paid to know there ****, instead of engaging in forum debates just to get there rocks off. Again wrong comparison. I'll freely admit that I would trust their opinion over mine. However I trust current players and coaches opinions over theirs? See the difference? You're fighting on the wrong battlefield. It's Cross and Banks vs all of the current players and coaches that voted him to the pro bowl in spite of a 1/3 weighted negative fan vote who like yourself generally consider him over rated. Do you realize how much bigger a statement that makes the players and coaches support?
PDaDdy Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 K9 I'm so glad you laid this all out there. It seems that maybe no one on this thread has ever filled out an online pro bowl ballot. Do you think that a Seattle fan who watches little to no Miami Dolphins football could tell weather or not Jason Taylor had a probowl year last year? Probably not. Is Jason Taylor a household name? Yeah. Has he been to previous Probowls? yeah. Did I see him on Dancing with the Stars? yeah. Well you know what, I'm voting for him. Easy as that. For posters who seem to have all the stats and answers to back up there flaky positions, it is funny to watch them get caught with their pants down. LOL. Ya...Jason Peters who when in Buffalo, one of the smallest markets in the league, has fans in places like Seattle rallying the troops to come out in mass support to vote for him. ROFLOL. Riiiiiiiiight. What is more likely is that people like your self fill out those ballots to voice your displeasure of guys like Peters and also of course to support some other candidate possibly in places like Seattle. And no I have never filled out a pro bowl ballot.
Malazan Posted March 27, 2010 Posted March 27, 2010 Again wrong comparison. I'll freely admit that I would trust their opinion over mine. However I trust current players and coaches opinions over theirs? See the difference? You're fighting on the wrong battlefield. It's Cross and Banks vs all of the current players and coaches that voted him to the pro bowl in spite of a 1/3 weighted negative fan vote who like yourself generally consider him over rated. Do you realize how much bigger a statement that makes the players and coaches support? You're the only one who seems to fail to realize that most of the current players probably don't watch Peters play.
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