Wizard Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 It has been discussed on this board about the challenges and changes that are necessary to make a switch back to the 3-4. I've read some websites that explain how each of these defenses generally operate; however, I'm wondering if there is a 4-4 defense (or some version of it in the NFL)? The Bills hadn't the most difficult time stopping the run last year. Wouldn't it make sense to have an 8th player in the "box?". I know that is usually a safety's responsibility, but what if the Bills had four defensive lineman and four linebackers to take away the run? This leaves the Bills will McGee, McKelvin, and Byrd in the secondary. Of course, on general passing down situations, the Bills could take away one of the defensive lineman/linebackers and add a safety or nickel corner in such situations. The secondary is the strongest part of the "D." In theory, we should be able to leave those guys on an island more and slow down the run game and the short passing game over the middle with a 4-4 defense. I believe the Bills should have their strongest 11 players on the field to make plays. With that in mind, here would be my 4-4 defense. LDE Marcus Stroud DT Kyle Williams NT Mt. Cody or Cam Thomas (2nd Round) RDE Dwan Edwards/Spencer Johnson on occasion OLB Kawika Mitchell ILB POZ ILB Davis OLB Maybin (3rd down passing situations go with Ellison or Scott, or a 3rd round LB who is better at coverage skills like Eric Norwood) CB McGee CB McKelvin Safety-Byrd It just seems like we have too many guys that don't fit a 3-4 or a weren't great at a 4-3 that are still on the roster (Schobel, Kelsay, Ellis). These guys aren't LB's either. If the run is our biggest problem, let's add another lineman to plug the holes. Is there a 4-4 defense? If not, is it realistic for the Bills to have a package like this? After all, considering the team hasn't been in the playoffs 10 years, I think even the idea of a 4-4 defense is worth a look. Thoughts? Suggestions?
Adam Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 It has been discussed on this board about the challenges and changes that are necessary to make a switch back to the 3-4. I've read some websites that explain how each of these defenses generally operate; however, I'm wondering if there is a 4-4 defense (or some version of it in the NFL)? The Bills hadn't the most difficult time stopping the run last year. Wouldn't it make sense to have an 8th player in the "box?". I know that is usually a safety's responsibility, but what if the Bills had four defensive lineman and four linebackers to take away the run? This leaves the Bills will McGee, McKelvin, and Byrd in the secondary. Of course, on general passing down situations, the Bills could take away one of the defensive lineman/linebackers and add a safety or nickel corner in such situations. The secondary is the strongest part of the "D." In theory, we should be able to leave those guys on an island more and slow down the run game and the short passing game over the middle with a 4-4 defense. I believe the Bills should have their strongest 11 players on the field to make plays. With that in mind, here would be my 4-4 defense. LDE Marcus Stroud DT Kyle Williams NT Mt. Cody or Cam Thomas (2nd Round) RDE Dwan Edwards/Spencer Johnson on occasion OLB Kawika Mitchell ILB POZ ILB Davis OLB Maybin (3rd down passing situations go with Ellison or Scott, or a 3rd round LB who is better at coverage skills like Eric Norwood) CB McGee CB McKelvin Safety-Byrd It just seems like we have too many guys that don't fit a 3-4 or a weren't great at a 4-3 that are still on the roster (Schobel, Kelsay, Ellis). These guys aren't LB's either. If the run is our biggest problem, let's add another lineman to plug the holes. Is there a 4-4 defense? If not, is it realistic for the Bills to have a package like this? After all, considering the team hasn't been in the playoffs 10 years, I think even the idea of a 4-4 defense is worth a look. Thoughts? Suggestions? Some teams have a specialty 4-4 package, but if we don't have a defensive back who needs to be on the field more than Maybin does, we are sunk
FluffHead Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Any decent NFL QB would destroy a base defense with just 3 DB's on the field, that is why no one would use it as their base.
FightClub Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Some teams have a specialty 4-4 package, but if we don't have a defensive back who needs to be on the field more than Maybin does, we are sunk Yeah, I don't know how our front 7 (8?) suddenly got so strong...has been one of the weakest parts of our team for some time now, and the recent FA signings help, but our back 4 is still stronger. Also, got news for the OP - Florence is going to be starting with McGee. This regime is not going to feel responsible for the debacle of a pick that was McKelvin. He'll actually probably be the 4th, or backup, corner, with Reggie Corner getting the nickel job.
lets_go_bills Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 A 4-4? There's 8-in-the-box with a hard hitting SS coming closer to the line. But a 4th 'backer? That spells trouble. Smart teams and savvy QBs will just go over the top and destroy you with the pass. An extra blocker, shotgun formations, these would be utilized to counter this. The front seven has never been a front eight because it would upset the balance of being able to equally defend both the run and pass. With a 4-4 you might be un-run-on-able, but teams would unleash an arial assault on you that would god damn embarass you.
Adam Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 A 4-4? There's 8-in-the-box with a hard hitting SS coming closer to the line. But a 4th 'backer? That spells trouble. Smart teams and savvy QBs will just go over the top and destroy you with the pass. An extra blocker, shotgun formations, these would be utilized to counter this. The front seven has never been a front eight because it would upset the balance of being able to equally defend both the run and pass. With a 4-4 you might be un-run-on-able, but teams would unleash an arial assault on you that would god damn embarass you. The Jets did it very successfully a few years ago
lets_go_bills Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 The Jets did it very successfully a few years ago When?
Adam Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 When? Don't remember when or who the coach was- Either Edwards or whoever was before him, maybe? I remember seeing four down linemen and four LB's. Covering so many games over so many years, it really blends together for me quite a bit.......You absolutely have to get good pressure to make it work.
FluffHead Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Don't remember when or who the coach was- Either Edwards or whoever was before him, maybe? I remember seeing four down linemen and four LB's. Covering so many games over so many years, it really blends together for me quite a bit.......You absolutely have to get good pressure to make it work. Lots of teams have a 4-4 package. Having it as a package and having it as your base defense are two totally different things.
lets_go_bills Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Don't remember when or who the coach was- Either Edwards or whoever was before him, maybe? I remember seeing four down linemen and four LB's. Covering so many games over so many years, it really blends together for me quite a bit.......You absolutely have to get good pressure to make it work. I don't recall it at all. Before Edwards was Groh for one year then Parcells. Edwards coached a Cover 2 I believe. And the pressure would have to be almost instant and even then I don't see it working.
Bob in STL Posted March 21, 2010 Posted March 21, 2010 Any decent NFL QB would destroy a base defense with just 3 DB's on the field, that is why no one would use it as their base. Not true. The 8 in the box defense, where the strong safety essentially moves up to support the run, can be looked at as a 4-4 or a 5-3, depending on the base defense.
DonInBuffalo Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 The Bills will probably have a 4-4 package they can use in specific situations. It would be a good fit for down near the goal line, since you don't have as much field to cover. During the Greg Williams era, the Bills sometimes brought in a 4th LB on 2nd and long, because most teams have a strong tendency to run in that down and distance.
DonInBuffalo Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Not true. The 8 in the box defense, where the strong safety essentially moves up to support the run, can be looked at as a 4-4 or a 5-3, depending on the base defense. That's not really the same as what he was talking about. 3 DBs on the field and an extra LB in the box is not the same thing as moving a safety down into the box. The safety is presumably faster than the LB, and would generally do a better job of covering receivers in downfield routes.
silvermike Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I mean, we had Bryan Scott playing linebacker for a while in there, so it wasn't far from being a 4-4 defense last season. But generally, what you're doing there is really selling out against the run and daring the offense to pass. If the other team has two marginally talented WRs, you're going to have to leave one in single coverage AND leave a linebacker on a tight end. When the other team comes out in a jumbo package, it could work, but not as a base D.
K-9 Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Two words: Bud Wilkinson. Two more words: the "Oklahoma" defense. The 3-4 is a direct descendant of the 44 defense that Wilkinson invented. Football history is a cool thing. GO BILLS!!!
VADC Bills Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Yeah, I don't know how our front 7 (8?) suddenly got so strong...has been one of the weakest parts of our team for some time now, and the recent FA signings help, but our back 4 is still stronger. We will still have the same level of talent out there. Will the additions of Davis and Edwards turn a bad defense into a top 10 unit???? I don't see it yet but I'm giving Gailey the benefit of the doubt so far.
BillsWatch Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 It is too bad that DCs can not play 3-4 or 4-3 depending upon opponent. The Bills switched mid season after a pair of starter injuries a number of years ago but I have never seen a DC who could adapt per game radically.
Dr. Fong Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Don't remember when or who the coach was- Either Edwards or whoever was before him, maybe? I remember seeing four down linemen and four LB's. Covering so many games over so many years, it really blends together for me quite a bit.......You absolutely have to get good pressure to make it work. If I was a defensive coordinator scheming against the Bills over the past couple of years I would utilize the same defense that I did when I coached powder puff football. Which was rush 9 and keep two safeties deep.
Arkady Renko Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I mean, we had Bryan Scott playing linebacker for a while in there, so it wasn't far from being a 4-4 defense last season. But generally, what you're doing there is really selling out against the run and daring the offense to pass. If the other team has two marginally talented WRs, you're going to have to leave one in single coverage AND leave a linebacker on a tight end. When the other team comes out in a jumbo package, it could work, but not as a base D. Wouldn't that make it a 4-2 defense? Or a nickel?
Wizard Posted March 22, 2010 Author Posted March 22, 2010 Thanks for the thoughts. Yes...I like the additions of Davis and Edwards, but I know the transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4 must take several years with coaching, free agency, and the draft. For those that shared that a 4-4 could be used in some situations, this seems to make sense.
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