DarthICE Posted March 18, 2010 Author Posted March 18, 2010 Your fixation on the qb is understandable but very misguided. No one doubts that the qb position is the most important position on the roster. But the Bills have been bad for a lot more reasons than the deficiency at qb. How good has our OL been for the past decade? Last year it was at a USFL level. How good has our DL been in stopping the run and getting at the qb over the past decade? Without a doubt the Bills have in those defensive categories ranked in the lower tier. How do you rank our receiving corps? When was the last time we have had a productive TE? Our LB corps? They are all collectively mediocre. As others have noted there are a number of ways of getting an impactful qb. The Bills' front office has been incapable of acquiring one over the past nearly twenty years because it is embarrassingly inept. Not having a high caliber qb is not an excuse for having in general a quality roster. The Bills have historically been boring losers because the owner and front office were embarrassingly clueless. Hopefully, things will change and move in the right direction. As Tod McShay has wisely stated his recommendation to the Bills is to bolster the OL first so that when you identify your franchise qb you are placing him in a position to succeed instead of putting him in the position to be under constant siege. Ok the line is in place, we are 7-9 that year and have identified our future QB. Do we trade UP then?
BillsVet Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 For us to get a franchise QB we have to A. Trade up to a top 2 spot and get one. or B. suck so badly we have a top 2 draft pick. But what happens each year is we suck but not bad enough. We just sit there in that spot where we draft anywhere from say 6th to 11th, we won't get a top QB that way. But at the same time fans scream 'no matter what I want them to win' instead of the Bills rightfully tanking it to get a top pick. Darth, we get you want them to take a QB. Everyday there is at least one post saying as much and even casual visitors to TBD get your opinion. You're like a recurring case of hemorhhoids sometimes. FYI. Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco, Jay Cutler, and Aaron Rodgers were all selected in the first and beyond the 10th pick.
Nervous Guy Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Are you serious? Not every franchise QB is a top 5 pick anyway. yep, Brady...Warner....
Meark Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 In refering to Cleveland he said at what point do you pull the trigger and move up and get your franchise QB? One of the problems with the Bills and even Bills fans is they want their cake and eat it too. For us to get a franchise QB we have to A. Trade up to a top 2 spot and get one. or B. suck so badly we have a top 2 draft pick. But what happens each year is we suck but not bad enough. We just sit there in that spot where we draft anywhere from say 6th to 11th, we won't get a top QB that way. But at the same time fans scream 'no matter what I want them to win' instead of the Bills rightfully tanking it to get a top pick. Now I am not saying start the season like that, but say when Jauron was fired, As the owner I would have told Fewell don't even game plan, play backups, let the starters heal up and get ready for next year. I would want the best pick available. Yeah a couple vets might get upset, but who cares? It is time to redo this franchise. At some point we are going to have to quit going with the Fluties, Johnsons, Losermans and Edwards and find us a great QB to develop. Otherwise this team isn't going to be anything more than a 7-9 to 9-7 tops year in and year out. This is so freaking ridiculous.
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Your fixation on the qb is understandable but very misguided. No one doubts that the qb position is the most important position on the roster. But the Bills have been bad for a lot more reasons than the deficiency at qb. How good has our OL been for the past decade? Last year it was at a USFL level. How good has our DL been in stopping the run and getting at the qb over the past decade? Without a doubt the Bills have in those defensive categories ranked in the lower tier. How do you rank our receiving corps? When was the last time we have had a productive TE? Our LB corps? They are all collectively mediocre. As others have noted there are a number of ways of getting an impactful qb. The Bills' front office has been incapable of acquiring one over the past nearly twenty years because it is embarrassingly inept. Not having a high caliber qb is not an excuse for having in general a quality roster. The Bills have historically been boring losers because the owner and front office were embarrassingly clueless. Hopefully, things will change and move in the right direction. As Tod McShay has wisely stated his recommendation to the Bills is to bolster the OL first so that when you identify your franchise qb you are placing him in a position to succeed instead of putting him in the position to be under constant siege. First of all Tod McShay is a hack (I just need to get that out of the way & by nature I don't really care what the analysts say...Mayock does seem the be the cream of the crap though)...A good QB can make a horrible OL look good...it goes both ways. Second of all, our D wasn't all that bad for 3 - 3 1/2 qtrs...The problems arose when they got tired out for being on the field a majority of the time due to the offense going 3 and out or being in 3rd and impossible situations. That can be rectified by getting another OT or 2 in this draft. Our RBs will be able to carry us and get us a few wins...our QBs who the hell knows??? Darth is right that we always draft somewhere between the 6th and 11th pick. PTR (I think) in another thread stated that anaylsts will predict us to win about 3 games and we will end up winning 6 or 7, rinse and repeat...that is very true of this franchise right now. In some ways, I do buy into what Nix said in his presser, this team isn't that far off - we do have pieces to work with...Our chance for a franchise QB is this year or possibly next year. This year its tough to say if a franchise QB is there or not. Hoping for a Brady in the 6th round or by pulling off a trade to get a Farve is few and far between, most of the late round players who blossom are RBs, WRs, LBs and DBs...it is rare when a late round QB or an OLman turn out to be the diamond in the rough. The last missing piece for a team shouldn't be the QB, he should be there during the process and work on becoming a leader of his team. Not to mention it will be harder to pull of a trade to get up there to draft this guy, without the implementation of a rookie cap and you being one of the better teams will mean you should theoretically be closer to the salary cap ceiling, makes it harder to trade up and get that QB...you would also have to give up more than your late first and late second rounder...if this year we trade up and get Bradford or Claussen (I am trying to prepare myself for Tebow - just a hunch) who says the guy needs to play this season???
JohnC Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 to further back up this post. The Falcons drafted Ryan and then jumped back into the first round to get a LT. Their GM knew Ryan needed help. The Bills don't have that luxury because they are changed to a 3-4. They need all the picks you can get. Bolster the line and let Trent/Brohm play. I bet Chan can get better play out of both of them. In addition to moving back up in the draft to get OT Sam Baker they also picked up a high priced back in free agency from San Diego to help put Ryan in a better position to succeed. Bolstering the line directly helps all the skill positions. If the Bills were in position to get a Mat Ryan caliber qb no one would be against that strategy. But if they are not in that position to make such a sterling qb acquisition they have to move on and address so many other multiple needs. Adding talent and keeping talent is what is going to restore this franchise back to normalcy.
kota Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 I dont' think ICE understands that Ego is everything with a QB. You get young hotshot QB's out of college who have been the **** since Highschool. They come into the NFL usually on crappy teams with crappy Olines and get destroyed. Joey Harrington, and David Carr come to mind. they both got hammered every sunday lost all confidence in themself and their organizations. Guys like Cutler, Rodgers, Brady, etc... spent at least a year or so on the bench. they weren't thrown into the mix and got to watch.
Celtic_soulja Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Okay...lets look at some QB's that have been proven winners NOT taken in the top ten...or some even not in the first round at all.... Kurt Warner......undrafted Tom Brady........6th round Jury is out on Cassel but if he does something.......7th round Matt Hasselbeck, don't like him but I've seen a bunch of Bills fans wanting him now even as old as he is.....6th round Tony Romo.......undrafted Jeff Garcia........undrafted Marc Bulger, ehhh shouldn't even be on this list IMO lol but if y'all like Hasselbeck y'all probably like him to.....6th round Jake Delhomme, not a fan now, but he had his days in the past.....undrafted Jay Cutler.................round one pick 11 Ben Roethlisberger.......round one pick 11 Daunte Culpepper, not a fan, but some like him.........round one pick 11 Drew Brees....................2nd round Matt Shaub...............3rd round Aaron Rodgers............round one pick 24 Joe Montana..............3rd round Joe Namath...............round one pick 12 Dan Marino................round one pick 27 JIM KELLY.................round one pick 14 Roger Staubach...........10th round Bart Starr....................17th round Warren Moon..............undrafted I mean the list goes on and on and on....there are far less top ten QB picks in the Hall of Fame than QB's picked beyond that mark...trading away a whole bunch of picks to get into the top ten to get a HOF QB is ridiculous and idiotic...if you believe there aren't more QB's picked later than pick ten who go on to illustrious careers...take a look at that list, and then if you want to play a game...name a QB that was picked in the top ten, then I'll name one that wasn't....we'll see who runs out of names first....
Celtic_soulja Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 First of all Tod McShay is a hack (I just need to get that out of the way & by nature I don't really care what the analysts say...Mayock does seem the be the cream of the crap though)...A good QB can make a horrible OL look good...it goes both ways. Second of all, our D wasn't all that bad for 3 - 3 1/2 qtrs...The problems arose when they got tired out for being on the field a majority of the time due to the offense going 3 and out or being in 3rd and impossible situations. That can be rectified by getting another OT or 2 in this draft. Our RBs will be able to carry us and get us a few wins...our QBs who the hell knows??? Darth is right that we always draft somewhere between the 6th and 11th pick. PTR (I think) in another thread stated that anaylsts will predict us to win about 3 games and we will end up winning 6 or 7, rinse and repeat...that is very true of this franchise right now. In some ways, I do buy into what Nix said in his presser, this team isn't that far off - we do have pieces to work with...Our chance for a franchise QB is this year or possibly next year. This year its tough to say if a franchise QB is there or not. Hoping for a Brady in the 6th round or by pulling off a trade to get a Farve is few and far between, most of the late round players who blossom are RBs, WRs, LBs and DBs...it is rare when a late round QB or an OLman turn out to be the diamond in the rough. The last missing piece for a team shouldn't be the QB, he should be there during the process and work on becoming a leader of his team. Not to mention it will be harder to pull of a trade to get up there to draft this guy, without the implementation of a rookie cap and you being one of the better teams will mean you should theoretically be closer to the salary cap ceiling, makes it harder to trade up and get that QB...you would also have to give up more than your late first and late second rounder...if this year we trade up and get Bradford or Claussen (I am trying to prepare myself for Tebow - just a hunch) who says the guy needs to play this season??? SEE MY POST ^^^^^^ THEY ARE NOT RARE...BRADY IS ONE OF MANY LATE ROUND QB'S TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE NFL
dgrid Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Roger Staubach...........10th round wow, must be since he was navy and had to fulfill servc obligation. we should think about picking up Ricky Dobbs (Navy), after the draft. let him serve for 2 yrs and see what he's got left. not our solution for franchise QB, but a long-shot w/ no cost.
Celtic_soulja Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 I'm all for taking a QB rounds five through seven...but above that is not worth it for a team with NO TACKLES and a team that CAN'T STOP THE RUN...those are priorities right now... With the way the league don't let QB's play with broken fingernails...they NEED TO BE ABLE TO PLAY UNTOUCHED... Also, stopping the run allows your offense to get on the field...without these two things...a QB is useless...also, it gives my boy Trent Edwards to play his third season and show all these Bills fans that he is the real deal
Reed83HOF Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 SEE MY POST ^^^^^^ THEY ARE NOT RARE...BRADY IS ONE OF MANY LATE ROUND QB'S TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE NFL Nice post...and am sure it took a little bit of work to do that. Some of the qbs you have on there are not great, maybe competant, but not elite. Bart Starr, Namath and Staubach are too long ago to be relevent in a draft conversation. There is definately luck to finding a franchise qb. Your post does show that 6 qbs were taken in round one, which is where I personally think you are more likely to find a franchise QB. While yes there have been some other late round finds, I think that is more of a rarity. Personally I am not a fan of Romo or Gracia, they are not franchise QBs IMHO, serviceable yes, but they aren't an elite franchise qb. I didn't really hit on it in my post, but the onnly way I want us to move up for and make a play for a QB is if we feel that he is an elite qb...With Nix pulling the trigger, I am confident and think we may make a good choice... I am not saying that we should this year, but I think this year and next year will be our best shot. I personally think Locker would be an great choice...We have done some work on the D so far, we need to work on the offense a bit, which is atrocious...whether it is an OT or a QB we take, we need help in both positions. This year I see us riding it out with the qbs we have...I just don't think we need to toss all of our eggs into the Defense this year...
Celtic_soulja Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Nice post...and am sure it took a little bit of work to do that. Some of the qbs you have on there are not great, maybe competant, but not elite. Bart Starr, Namath and Staubach are too long ago to be relevent in a draft conversation. There is definately luck to finding a franchise qb. Your post does show that 6 qbs were taken in round one, which is where I personally think you are more likely to find a franchise QB. While yes there have been some other late round finds, I think that is more of a rarity. Personally I am not a fan of Romo or Gracia, they are not franchise QBs IMHO, serviceable yes, but they aren't an elite franchise qb. I didn't really hit on it in my post, but the onnly way I want us to move up for and make a play for a QB is if we feel that he is an elite qb...With Nix pulling the trigger, I am confident and think we may make a good choice... I am not saying that we should this year, but I think this year and next year will be our best shot. I personally think Locker would be an great choice...We have done some work on the D so far, we need to work on the offense a bit, which is atrocious...whether it is an OT or a QB we take, we need help in both positions. This year I see us riding it out with the qbs we have...I just don't think we need to toss all of our eggs into the Defense this year... Yeah I was just pulling names of guys that made the probowl for the past five years and then thinking of QB's off the top of my head that were relevant and possible HOFers....and I wasn't saying that late round is the way to go to find a franchise QB...just that you don't need to pick them in the top ten...because people were saying we need to move up from our current position to get a franchise QB...with mid FIRST round picks...we have had plenty of opportunities to find THE GUY... Personally I think fate is on our side...I can see it now...we dont reach for a QB...go with Tackles for the offense and defense...then we go to battle with what we got...with a run first mentality and two great RB's Trent gets sacked less and becomes calm again...everyone jumps back on his bandwagon...(I'm saving thier seat)...and we become a force in the AFC again...all because we decided to wait till next year to draft a QB
T master Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 In refering to Cleveland he said at what point do you pull the trigger and move up and get your franchise QB? One of the problems with the Bills and even Bills fans is they want their cake and eat it too. For us to get a franchise QB we have to A. Trade up to a top 2 spot and get one. or B. suck so badly we have a top 2 draft pick. But what happens each year is we suck but not bad enough. We just sit there in that spot where we draft anywhere from say 6th to 11th, we won't get a top QB that way. But at the same time fans scream 'no matter what I want them to win' instead of the Bills rightfully tanking it to get a top pick. Now I am not saying start the season like that, but say when Jauron was fired, As the owner I would have told Fewell don't even game plan, play backups, let the starters heal up and get ready for next year. I would want the best pick available. Yeah a couple vets might get upset, but who cares? It is time to redo this franchise. At some point we are going to have to quit going with the Fluties, Johnsons, Losermans and Edwards and find us a great QB to develop. Otherwise this team isn't going to be anything more than a 7-9 to 9-7 tops year in and year out. I'll bet Tom Brady fans believe differently !! Flutie wasn't the loser, that was just a bad, BAD coaching decision !! ( i still have night mares about that one) & every body knows it !! Our past coaches just haven't had a clue when it comes to developing a QB , how many offensive schemes did Losman have to learn and there again Rob Johnson was just a complete waste of time and money (talk about one of the NFL's greatest bust i never understood that one) and that goes right along with the pull Flutie decision which came from the same coach. As far as QB savey coaches i think & ( along with a little prayer) believe Gailey is way ahead of any coach we've had since Levy Or Marchibrota , & i got to say i trust the wisdom of Bill Walsh when it comes to T.E more than any of us Monday morning QB's !! I say if he has a GOOD OL and the time to throw we'll see a much improved Trent Edwards . And if what you are saying is true about a top QB prospect then we need to pick up Teabow - all things aside #1) with who he has on his side (God is good !!) & #2) with the will to win & work ethic that he has i would never bet against that guy, especially when it comes to Tim being able to turn himself into a top future NFL prospect . (talk about a J. Kelly clone) GO BILLS !!
purple haze Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 In refering to Cleveland he said at what point do you pull the trigger and move up and get your franchise QB? One of the problems with the Bills and even Bills fans is they want their cake and eat it too. For us to get a franchise QB we have to A. Trade up to a top 2 spot and get one. or B. suck so badly we have a top 2 draft pick. But what happens each year is we suck but not bad enough. We just sit there in that spot where we draft anywhere from say 6th to 11th, we won't get a top QB that way. But at the same time fans scream 'no matter what I want them to win' instead of the Bills rightfully tanking it to get a top pick. Now I am not saying start the season like that, but say when Jauron was fired, As the owner I would have told Fewell don't even game plan, play backups, let the starters heal up and get ready for next year. I would want the best pick available. Yeah a couple vets might get upset, but who cares? It is time to redo this franchise. At some point we are going to have to quit going with the Fluties, Johnsons, Losermans and Edwards and find us a great QB to develop. Otherwise this team isn't going to be anything more than a 7-9 to 9-7 tops year in and year out. Are you saying they should tank games late in the year? If so, we can no longer pay attention to you. That's straight, CRAZY.
sharper802 Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 In refering to Cleveland he said at what point do you pull the trigger and move up and get your franchise QB? One of the problems with the Bills and even Bills fans is they want their cake and eat it too. For us to get a franchise QB we have to A. Trade up to a top 2 spot and get one. or B. suck so badly we have a top 2 draft pick. But what happens each year is we suck but not bad enough. We just sit there in that spot where we draft anywhere from say 6th to 11th, we won't get a top QB that way. But at the same time fans scream 'no matter what I want them to win' instead of the Bills rightfully tanking it to get a top pick. Now I am not saying start the season like that, but say when Jauron was fired, As the owner I would have told Fewell don't even game plan, play backups, let the starters heal up and get ready for next year. I would want the best pick available. Yeah a couple vets might get upset, but who cares? It is time to redo this franchise. At some point we are going to have to quit going with the Fluties, Johnsons, Losermans and Edwards and find us a great QB to develop. Otherwise this team isn't going to be anything more than a 7-9 to 9-7 tops year in and year out. You are wrong in so many ways it is funny. As others have pointed out franchise QB's are just as likely to come from anywhere in the draft as they are top 5 picks. Most of all there is no GM or team that wants a top 5 pick in the current salary structure. With no rookie salary system the signing bonuses for top 5 picks are so huge that no GM wants any part of it. The only reason they stay in the top 5 is that noone wants to move up in those slots to draft anyone. Missing on a top 5 draft pick can set a franchise back for years. Look at Detroit, Cleveland and how there poor success with top 5 QB choices is still haunting them. The Bills are still haunted by Mike Williams. The draft is a crap shoot at almost every position. Quantity of picks almost always outweighs the actual draft position.
thewildrabbit Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Okay...lets look at some QB's that have been proven winners NOT taken in the top ten...or some even not in the first round at all.... Kurt Warner......undrafted Tom Brady........6th round Jury is out on Cassel but if he does something.......7th round Matt Hasselbeck, don't like him but I've seen a bunch of Bills fans wanting him now even as old as he is.....6th round Tony Romo.......undrafted Jeff Garcia........undrafted Marc Bulger, ehhh shouldn't even be on this list IMO lol but if y'all like Hasselbeck y'all probably like him to.....6th round Jake Delhomme, not a fan now, but he had his days in the past.....undrafted Jay Cutler.................round one pick 11 Ben Roethlisberger.......round one pick 11 Daunte Culpepper, not a fan, but some like him.........round one pick 11 Drew Brees....................2nd round Matt Shaub...............3rd round Aaron Rodgers............round one pick 24 Joe Montana..............3rd round Joe Namath...............round one pick 12 Dan Marino................round one pick 27 JIM KELLY.................round one pick 14-2nd player drafted in the 1st rd by the Bills, Tony Hunter was drafted before him Roger Staubach...........10th round Bart Starr....................17th round Warren Moon..............undrafted I mean the list goes on and on and on....there are far less top ten QB picks in the Hall of Fame than QB's picked beyond that mark...trading away a whole bunch of picks to get into the top ten to get a HOF QB is ridiculous and idiotic...if you believe there aren't more QB's picked later than pick ten who go on to illustrious careers...take a look at that list, and then if you want to play a game...name a QB that was picked in the top ten, then I'll name one that wasn't....we'll see who runs out of names first.... Good point... Not only that, think about the Rams a min. They had Curt Warner under contract and let him go because they "thought" they had the franchise QB in Marc Bulger who looked really good behind a top O line and on a super bowl caliber team... WHAT HAPPENED? to that "franchise" QB in Bulger? He was pounded game after game and surrounded by lesser players and he now is a shell of what he started out to be because of inept coaching and poor players acquired, kinda like last years Buffalo Bills.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Dude, we get it. You want the Bills to draft Bradford. Even if he were there at #9, he still ain't worth the pick. He's not a franchiser and there is not a franchise QB in this draft. The Bills already have 3 backup QBs, adding a fourth is only going to ensure thay have someone to take snaps when the other three go down with injuries. Sorry That can't be the trooth... There is a franchise QB in the draft as there is just about every year, it's just a question of who will be smart enough to pick him as he is not always the guy touted as the #1 QB coming out.
JohnC Posted March 18, 2010 Posted March 18, 2010 Ok the line is in place, we are 7-9 that year and have identified our future QB. Do we trade UP then? Absolutely, with no equivocation. Make no mistake about what I have been saying all along. If you can secure your franchise qb in this draft then go ahead and do it. Would I take Clausen if he was on the board when our turn came up. Yes I would. Would I trade off a lot of picks to get him? No.
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