The Council of Trent

[Guest dog14787]

I agree fear is the wrong word to use when Edwards will sit there and wait for a play to develop KNOWING he's going to get hammered. He was the same way in college. He has no fear of getting hit. It takes guts to sit in the pocket and let a play develop around you. Especially with our lack of talent up front at the edges.

 

That said, he DOES have SERIOUS confidence issues when it comes to certain plays. At the very least that lack of confidence means he is at least AFRAID to make a mistake. Nobody can play ANY game with that kind of mentality, especially at the most importante position perhaps in all of sports. Certainly on a football team. Like I said, I don't equate lack of confidence with fear. But it IS crippling his game.

 

And, like it or not, that lack of confidence rubs off on the players around him. And that compounds the problem for TE. It's a vicious cycle. Unless he gets off to a redhot start and has a lot of success to build on early this upcoming season, I'm not convinced he's capable of overcoming his confidence issues.

 

That's the ONLY problem with his game as a QB. He's got all the other qualities you'd want. Despite what some of the deeper thinkers would have you believe about his physical attributes. But that confidence problem is not an easy one to overcome. It's the football equivalent to the "yipps."

 

GO BILLS!!!

 

 

I agree with you on TE's confidence issue's and its not an easy thing to overcome.

[thewildrabbit]

I think we can agree that Fairchild was not a good OC. I didn't realize that was the point of your post.

 

But he was the OC, regardless of his duties in St. Louis. He did call the plays in '06 and '07. There was a certain lack of continuity along the OL from the previous season (everyone thought we were better). Lynch for McGahee. Reed for Price. But still, there was no reason to believe that JP wouldn't continue his development coming off his great 2nd half of '06. But it was painfully obvious right from the get-go against Denver in '07 that teams were going to continue to deny everything deep, double Evans, crowd the LOL to take away our running game and dare JP to beat us with short and intermediate routes. Teams had NO respect for JP's ability to manage a game when he had no deep threat to stretch a defense. I disagree that its all on the coaches. It speaks more to lack of talented players, especially at QB, than anything else.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Sorry, but you will never make the case to me that the QB's have been the problem and not the coaches. Explain to me then why Ralph Wilson just blew up his entire coaching staff, while Trent Edwards is still with the team?

 

Seriously, you can honestly say that the Bills last two offensive coordinators have been good enough ? Lets face facts shall we, where is Turk Schonert now? If he was decent and it was all the QB's fault he would have a job as OC or at least as a QB coach, he doesn't. AVP was at least hired to be a QB coach again.

For my money the lack of experience in OC coaches has ruined JP and possibly TE.

 

Not for nothing, but isn't it the coaches duties to figure out a game plan to beat the opponent and not the QB's duty?

 

What happened to the 1/2 time strategy session where the coaches go over whats working and what isn't and make the proper changes to correct mistakes and make adjustments to win the game?

 

The QB is simply a pawn of the offensive coordinator and he does what he is told, the OC calls the plays he thinks will work and the QB goes out and does his best to execute what is called. It is up to the coaches to put the players into position to make plays! Roscoe Parrish has been one of the most under used players on the roster. Talk about a waste of 6 million dollars in signing T.O.,then again it got the fans to buy tickets.

 

What if the defense is so familiar with the play calls that the primary, secondary receivers are covered and the QB has 3 seconds or less to find that 3rd or 4th outlet and deliver the ball. Not like the Bills are deep in talent so that the opponents only need to cover one guy, instead of three or four.

 

So yea, It was lack of talent everywhere, coaching, O line, receivers, TE, FB.The Bills have had a few above average players on offense the last few years. Lee Evens, Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, Trent Edwards.

 

Edwards has had his a$$ handed to him so many times the last two years I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is finished as an NFL QB.

[K-9]

Sorry, but you will never make the case to me that the QB's have been the problem and not the coaches. Explain to me then why Ralph Wilson just blew up his entire coaching staff, while Trent Edwards is still with the team?

 

Seriously, you can honestly say that the Bills last two offensive coordinators have been good enough ? Lets face facts shall we, where is Turk Schonert now? If he was decent and it was all the QB's fault he would have a job as OC or at least as a QB coach, he doesn't. AVP was at least hired to be a QB coach again.

For my money the lack of experience in OC coaches has ruined JP and possibly TE.

 

Not for nothing, but isn't it the coaches duties to figure out a game plan to beat the opponent and not the QB's duty?

 

What happened to the 1/2 time strategy session where the coaches go over whats working and what isn't and make the proper changes to correct mistakes and make adjustments to win the game?

 

The QB is simply a pawn of the offensive coordinator and he does what he is told, the OC calls the plays he thinks will work and the QB goes out and does his best to execute what is called. It is up to the coaches to put the players into position to make plays! Roscoe Parrish has been one of the most under used players on the roster. Talk about a waste of 6 million dollars in signing T.O.,then again it got the fans to buy tickets.

 

What if the defense is so familiar with the play calls that the primary, secondary receivers are covered and the QB has 3 seconds or less to find that 3rd or 4th outlet and deliver the ball. Not like the Bills are deep in talent so that the opponents only need to cover one guy, instead of three or four.

 

So yea, It was lack of talent everywhere, coaching, O line, receivers, TE, FB.The Bills have had a few above average players on offense the last few years. Lee Evens, Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, Trent Edwards.

 

Edwards has had his a$$ handed to him so many times the last two years I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is finished as an NFL QB.

 

When things don't work you blow up the coaching staff. You can't fire all the players. That's always been the case. TE is AT LEAST a serviceable backup at a bargain price. That's why he's still on the team.

 

I agree our last two OCs sucked. So has our QB play. Is there a correlation? Probably. But in which direction? Why has EVERY OC sucked since the Kelly years? Or was Flutie magic all of a sudden a result of inspired coaching? Have ALL of our QB coaches and OCs sucked over the years or have we been plagued by horrendous QB play during that time?

It's a bit simplistic to say that the OC calls the plays and everyone else does what they're told. That's just not true. QBs MUST make proper pre/post snap reads as well as his receivers. QBs MUST be able to audible into better plays given what they see from the defense. It's interesting to me that the coaches took that essential QB responsibility away from Losman. No, that didn't help him learn to read defenses better but after seeing him screw the pooch often enough, I would have taken the keys away from him, too.

 

Your point about the defense knowing what you're going to do is a good one. But that stems from a DC knowing what an offense CAN'T do because of the lack of playmakers at key positions. It's easy to defend a limited team. It's easy to force an offense into unmanageable down/distance situations when there are limited threats. It's simple to say "that's on the coaches" but I submit that limited talent will limit an OC's options significantly. An OC has to know his personnel and would be remiss to have them run a system that personnel isn't geared to run. That's the biggest reason we've been so seemingly conservative, especially under Fairchild. Our offenses have looked remarkebly similar the last 10 years, regardless who was coaching them. What's the one common denominator? Inconsistent QB play.

 

The NFL has always been a players' league. Always will be. Of course good coaching has it's place. There's no denying that. But as the saying goes, "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t."

 

As you said, we've lacked talent pretty much across the board and I'll include the coaching as well. But it has far more to do with lack of playmakers than it does with lack of good coaching. Especially at the most important position.

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you about Edwards. But not because he's had the snot knocked out of him too much. He got used to that in college. He's fearless in the pocket. His problem is confidence. He's afraid to pull the trigger on certain plays. But he's very good at going through his progressions. Without going into the intricacies of why, that's knowing the plays and that usually comes from a coach who knows what he's doing. Why was JP so inept at that under Fairchild while Edwards grasped it very quickly? Same coaches. Different players.

 

RW is going to blow it all up again in a few years if Nix and Co. don't bring in enough playmakers. Let's hope they can find some. Let's hope they find a QB eventually. Probably won't be this year but we'll need a good one eventually.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Astrojanitor]

If TE played behind an O-line say like the Colts over the last three seasons do you honestly think we would even be having this discussion?

 

but he didn't. and he won't be. If he played behind a brick wall and this was a flag football league we wouldn't be having this conversation either. But he plays for the Bills. meaning he is going to get hit. a lot. if he is injury prone he is a poor fit for this team.

[grelit]

Sorry, but you will never make the case to me that the QB's have been the problem and not the coaches. Explain to me then why Ralph Wilson just blew up his entire coaching staff, while Trent Edwards is still with the team?

 

Seriously, you can honestly say that the Bills last two offensive coordinators have been good enough ? Lets face facts shall we, where is Turk Schonert now? If he was decent and it was all the QB's fault he would have a job as OC or at least as a QB coach, he doesn't. AVP was at least hired to be a QB coach again.

For my money the lack of experience in OC coaches has ruined JP and possibly TE.

 

Not for nothing, but isn't it the coaches duties to figure out a game plan to beat the opponent and not the QB's duty?

 

What happened to the 1/2 time strategy session where the coaches go over whats working and what isn't and make the proper changes to correct mistakes and make adjustments to win the game?

 

The QB is simply a pawn of the offensive coordinator and he does what he is told, the OC calls the plays he thinks will work and the QB goes out and does his best to execute what is called. It is up to the coaches to put the players into position to make plays! Roscoe Parrish has been one of the most under used players on the roster. Talk about a waste of 6 million dollars in signing T.O.,then again it got the fans to buy tickets.

 

What if the defense is so familiar with the play calls that the primary, secondary receivers are covered and the QB has 3 seconds or less to find that 3rd or 4th outlet and deliver the ball. Not like the Bills are deep in talent so that the opponents only need to cover one guy, instead of three or four.

 

So yea, It was lack of talent everywhere, coaching, O line, receivers, TE, FB.The Bills have had a few above average players on offense the last few years. Lee Evens, Fred Jackson, Marshawn Lynch, Trent Edwards.

 

Edwards has had his a$$ handed to him so many times the last two years I wouldn't be surprised to find out he is finished as an NFL QB.

 

So I suppose any or all the unsuccessful QBs that ever played in the NFL then have been the coaches or coordinators fault?

 

So that explains why David Klingler and Ryan Leaf were so bad, hmmm if only they had good coaches!!

[Guest dog14787]

but he didn't. and he won't be. If he played behind a brick wall and this was a flag football league we wouldn't be having this conversation either. But he plays for the Bills. meaning he is going to get hit. a lot. if he is injury prone he is a poor fit for this team.

 

I would hope the Bills brain thrust has reviewed the last decade and have come to the conclusion it all starts up front. Gailey likes smash mouth football and is on the same page as his GM so in my opinion we are about to see big changes for our Buffalo Bills football team.

[Astrojanitor]

I would hope the Bills brain thrust has reviewed the last decade and have come to the conclusion it all starts up front. Gailey likes smash mouth football and is on the same page as his GM so I think we are about to see big changes for our Buffalo Bills football team.

 

that style of ball would certainly be better for Trent--less hits and all. I still don't find him to be a good fit for this team. beyond being injury prone there is the belief he cannot handle a wide playbook (as shown by the sudden switch to pop warner ball last year). that is as much of a problem as the injuries.

 

personally I think the best thing in the world for Trent is a year in the UFL to get his confidence back. look at what it did for JP. I think his limitations makes him a liability for the Bills. I think the Bills are a liability to him as well.

[DarthICE]

I am so sick of seeing posts on this POS. the sooner he is off this team the better.

[Guest dog14787]

that style of ball would certainly be better for Trent--less hits and all. I still don't find him to be a good fit for this team. beyond being injury prone there is the belief he cannot handle a wide playbook (as shown by the sudden switch to pop warner ball last year). that is as much of a problem as the injuries.

 

personally I think the best thing in the world for Trent is a year in the UFL to get his confidence back. look at what it did for JP. I think his limitations makes him a liability for the Bills. I think the Bills are a liability to him as well.

 

 

The change was due to mistakes from our Rookie O-line and to top it off the no huddle just made things worse. DJ thought simplifying it was the best thing to do, and from an intelligence standpoint TE's as good as they come in my opinion.

 

Might help if we weren't running an offensive system that was flawed to begin with...

[Guest dog14787]

I am so sick of seeing posts on this POS. the sooner he is off this team the better.

 

Some of us are just as sick of defending TE when the real problems with this Buffalo Bills football team are blatantly clear.

 

Maybe the Bills organization ruined TE just like JP was ruined with Fairchilds worthless piece of crap offense and shaddy protection, time will tell, but how about lets fix the problems that our ruining our QB's so we don't continue on down the same road to failure after failure.

[thewildrabbit]

So I suppose any or all the unsuccessful QBs that ever played in the NFL then have been the coaches or coordinators fault?

 

So that explains why David Klingler and Ryan Leaf were so bad, hmmm if only they had good coaches!!

You are correct, Ryan Leaf and Klingler went to a bad teams, with bad players and coaches, their entire surrounding cast was set up for them to fail.

 

What is it with the mentality that you throw a new raw QB into the NFL and expect him to win games without support, they can't and never will.

[Celtic_soulja]

Yeah, you can see the inconsistency of the offense game planning...I pointed one of these out to my friend during the first Miami game last season...we were going in with both starting OT's hurt...and with Porter and co I told my boy that if they throw more than twenty five times we'd get slaughtered...I said our interior is still intact...we should run it up the gut like 20-25 times this game if we expect to win...if Trent drops back he's toast...and what did AVP do?...we tried to go deep to T.O. and Evans all darn game and got whipped like red headed step children...

 

I just plainly don't understand the logic here...and it wasn't just that game, it's been that way for years here...no matter who the OC was...it's like when we have an offense built for a power offense we try to run west coast, when we are built for a west coast we run the ball...there has been a completely improper assessment of what we have...I just hope that Chan Gailey knows a little more and we have to see...he's known for putting together offenses based on the strengths of the players...but so was Mularky...and I didn't see it...so we'll see...I'm sick of this, "well we can't run when they know that's what we're going to do" that is the ultimate slap in the face to our offensive players...on fourth and one and the defense puts 5994883 in the box...Lynch still picks it up...I've seen him do it...you don't always have to TRICK the defense...yes once in a while it's a good method to pick up a big play...you don't base your ENTIRE gameplan based on doing just the opposite of what the defense thinks you're gonna do...ESPECIALLY when the REASON they think you won't do it is because they WATCH tape and KNOW you are not STUPID enough to try it...ooooh nope we fooled them...with two practice squad OT's we'll still take seven step drops no matter HOW fragile our QB is...because we have OWENS ooooooh....ridiculous...

[thewildrabbit]

When things don't work you blow up the coaching staff. You can't fire all the players. That's always been the case. TE is AT LEAST a serviceable backup at a bargain price. That's why he's still on the team.

 

I agree our last two OCs sucked. So has our QB play. Is there a correlation? Probably. But in which direction? Why has EVERY OC sucked since the Kelly years? Or was Flutie magic all of a sudden a result of inspired coaching? Have ALL of our QB coaches and OCs sucked over the years or have we been plagued by horrendous QB play during that time?

It's a bit simplistic to say that the OC calls the plays and everyone else does what they're told. That's just not true. QBs MUST make proper pre/post snap reads as well as his receivers. QBs MUST be able to audible into better plays given what they see from the defense. It's interesting to me that the coaches took that essential QB responsibility away from Losman. No, that didn't help him learn to read defenses better but after seeing him screw the pooch often enough, I would have taken the keys away from him, too.

 

Your point about the defense knowing what you're going to do is a good one. But that stems from a DC knowing what an offense CAN'T do because of the lack of playmakers at key positions. It's easy to defend a limited team. It's easy to force an offense into unmanageable down/distance situations when there are limited threats. It's simple to say "that's on the coaches" but I submit that limited talent will limit an OC's options significantly. An OC has to know his personnel and would be remiss to have them run a system that personnel isn't geared to run. That's the biggest reason we've been so seemingly conservative, especially under Fairchild. Our offenses have looked remarkebly similar the last 10 years, regardless who was coaching them. What's the one common denominator? Inconsistent QB play.

 

The NFL has always been a players' league. Always will be. Of course good coaching has it's place. There's no denying that. But as the saying goes, "You can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*t."

 

As you said, we've lacked talent pretty much across the board and I'll include the coaching as well. But it has far more to do with lack of playmakers than it does with lack of good coaching. Especially at the most important position.

 

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you about Edwards. But not because he's had the snot knocked out of him too much. He got used to that in college. He's fearless in the pocket. His problem is confidence. He's afraid to pull the trigger on certain plays. But he's very good at going through his progressions. Without going into the intricacies of why, that's knowing the plays and that usually comes from a coach who knows what he's doing. Why was JP so inept at that under Fairchild while Edwards grasped it very quickly? Same coaches. Different players.

 

RW is going to blow it all up again in a few years if Nix and Co. don't bring in enough playmakers. Let's hope they can find some. Let's hope they find a QB eventually. Probably won't be this year but we'll need a good one eventually.

 

GO BILLS!!!

Probably nothing, the last 5 years the Bills haven't had a competent offensive mind on the team, 25th or worst in the NFL on offense for 10 years says it all.

 

Realize Jim Kelly had 2 years of experience from the USFL under "mouse" Davis and then Ted Marchibroda mentored him and taught him to call his own plays in the NFL. He didn't call his own plays from the time he started playing in Buffalo, he was trained to do so by Marchibroda.

 

Ted was the one who set up the famed Bills no huddle offense when he noticed how good Kelly was with the 2 min drill. He didn't invent it but he certainly brought it to the forefront, same with the shotgun formation.

 

Would the Bills have become the same offensive powerhouse if Ted Marchibroda had never been hired? I dunno, kinda tough to say, I know he is the reason I purchased 4 season tickets from 87 to 93.

 

I know Marv Levy didn't have the offensive acumen to build a high powered offense simply because he had no background in that field and was a special teams coach as an assistant.

 

Kelly didn't suddenly become great in 87, it took a few years for the entire team to get good enough to win a championship. By the time Kelly was in his first super bowl he had already accumulated 5 years of experience.

 

Would Jim Kelly have taken last years Bills to the playoffs with a rookie OC and an almost all rookie O line, no freakin way IMHO.

[Celtic_soulja]

Probably nothing, the last 5 years the Bills haven't had a competent offensive mind on the team, 25th or worst in the NFL on offense for 10 years says it all.

 

Realize Jim Kelly had 2 years of experience from the USFL under "mouse" Davis and then Ted Marchibroda mentored him and taught him to call his own plays in the NFL. He didn't call his own plays from the time he started playing in Buffalo, he was trained to do so by Marchibroda.

 

Ted was the one who set up the famed Bills no huddle offense when he noticed how good Kelly was with the 2 min drill. He didn't invent it but he certainly brought it to the forefront, same with the shotgun formation.

 

Would the Bills have become the same offensive powerhouse if Ted Marchibroda had never been hired? I dunno, kinda tough to say, I know he is the reason I purchased 4 season tickets from 87 to 93.

 

I know Marv Levy didn't have the offensive acumen to build a high powered offense simply because he had no background in that field and was a special teams coach as an assistant.

 

Kelly didn't suddenly become great in 87, it took a few years for the entire team to get good enough to win a championship. By the time Kelly was in his first super bowl he had already accumulated 5 years of experience.

 

Would Jim Kelly have taken last years Bills to the playoffs with a rookie OC and an almost all rookie O line, no freakin way IMHO.

 

Right on....

[lets_go_bills]

Edwards looked promising until Wilson concussed him. Then he kind of came back. Then we traded Peters and our line took several steps back. Edwards had less protection and less time to throw and regressed. Having Jauron as coach didn't help either.

 

I honestly believe he could've been great but we ruined him. Maybe he can re-capture his previous, promising form.

[K-9]

Probably nothing, the last 5 years the Bills haven't had a competent offensive mind on the team, 25th or worst in the NFL on offense for 10 years says it all.

 

Realize Jim Kelly had 2 years of experience from the USFL under "mouse" Davis and then Ted Marchibroda mentored him and taught him to call his own plays in the NFL. He didn't call his own plays from the time he started playing in Buffalo, he was trained to do so by Marchibroda.

 

Ted was the one who set up the famed Bills no huddle offense when he noticed how good Kelly was with the 2 min drill. He didn't invent it but he certainly brought it to the forefront, same with the shotgun formation.

 

Would the Bills have become the same offensive powerhouse if Ted Marchibroda had never been hired? I dunno, kinda tough to say, I know he is the reason I purchased 4 season tickets from 87 to 93.

 

I know Marv Levy didn't have the offensive acumen to build a high powered offense simply because he had no background in that field and was a special teams coach as an assistant.

 

Kelly didn't suddenly become great in 87, it took a few years for the entire team to get good enough to win a championship. By the time Kelly was in his first super bowl he had already accumulated 5 years of experience.

 

Would Jim Kelly have taken last years Bills to the playoffs with a rookie OC and an almost all rookie O line, no freakin way IMHO.

 

Can't argue with any of that. I've said numerous times that Kelly's stint in the USFL running the Run & Shoot under Mouse Davis did more for him in learning to read defenses than anything. He was polished when we got him and I seriously don't know if he would have become the same QB without that experience. And that's saying something because we both hold Marchibroda in such high regard.

 

WRT Marchibroda, his scheme was unique and I don't think we would have become the high powered offense if he didn't recognize what everyone brought to the table and how to exploit their respective talents. Going with the hurry-up and running the same variation of perhaps 8-10 plays to allow Kelly to call his plays at the LOS was pure genius on his behalf. Took a lot of balls, too. But when you have the offensive talent across the board like we did back then you give 'em the keys and let 'em drive. I think that was perhaps Marchibroda's best attribute: he didn't let his ego get in the way of his offense. He was the anti-Martz.

 

Now I am sad.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Buffalo Beeeews]

(MANUAL BUZZER...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!)

[Derf]

I know I know, just me...but hear me out first...

 

Okay, first...he's only started 32 games and is one of the most sacked QB's in the league because of our horrible O-Line...going first on statistics...has he been that bad?...

 

Trent Edwards: First 32 starts....61 comp %...........5498 yards....24 tds/25 ints.......3 percent of his passes are picked

 

Joe Montana: First 32 starts.....64 comp %............5456 yards...35 tds/22 ints.......3 percent of his passes were picked

 

Tom Brady: First 32 starts......63 comp %............6,613 yards.....46 tds/26 ints....4 percent of his passes were picked

(and yes Brady threw LESSSSS than Trent has in his first 32 starts making his int percentage a bit higher)

 

Steve Young: First 32 starts.....53 comp %.........4,467 yards.......24/24.......3 percent of his passes were picked

 

Phillip Rivers: First 32 starts.......58 comp %.......5,111 yards......33/18.......2 percent of his passes were picked

 

Drew Brees: First 32 starts........58 comp %.......5,612 yards......28/31.......5 percent of his passes were picked

 

 

Okay so they are pretty comparable numbers to some GREAT QB's...now I'm not suggesting that Trent is ANY OF THOSE...but what I'm suggesting is that we still haven't seen enough evidence to say he isn't either...

 

Outside of statistics...he has a fluid motion and is still young in the game....he has a decent arm and when given time can do some damage...his two concusions have him gun shy back there, but who can blame him?...now enter Chan's offense...run first presumably because we cannot draft a stud and there are none available unless we pry D Mac from philly...so a run first ball club will rarely throw it around to millions of different wide outs...one deep threat and TE's and Backs out of the backfield....that's Trent's staple isn't it?...he never got on the same page with T.O....and since he's gone....I don't think Trent will be pressured to throw it more than twenty times a game except on rare occasions...

 

He is the ultimate efficient QB...to a fault sometimes...but in a run first defensive team...isn't that what you want?...I think it would be a mistake to draft a QB high in THIS draft, and I think with a Run stuffing DT and a couple OT's...you have a whole new ball game where Trent is concerned...he's intelligent and just needs to get over being gun shy...which I think he can do...now, again...I am not saying he's pro bowl material, but I think he is capable...and I think that we do not have enough evidence to criticize him yet...not when his numbers are comparable...his win loss is comparable as well to some of them...and I think he can be much more effective with a better O-Line

[Sweet Lou]

Dog, I know you are a fan of Trent's, as I was. I was cheering for this guy with every ounce of my being. I thought he was our QB of the future. Then he lost me with his evasive interviews with the media. Then his reluctance to instill the confidence in his team mates was the straw that broke my spirit.

I know those scenarios I gave are and always will be the extreme and my apoligies to those offended. But each was an experience that I wanted to share with people, because in each case our superiors, et;al (our leaders) instilled the confidence into our every moral fiber. The confidence needed to obtain the almost impossible. Whether it's a game or real life you really do want to win. And it was the look on my buddies faces back then that told me who the winners were and who the "liabilities" were. (same look on Trent's face...absolutely overwhelmed, not the crying part of course)

Call it a swagger, a confidence, maybe a certain arrogance but all the great ones have it. " Those leadership qualities." Some are born with it, while the rest of us are just thrust into it, to fail or succeed. I know it's just football and for those who dis-liked him, Jimbo had it. Like many others I saw Jimbo play and it was an honor and a pleasure, even when they lost, to watch him operate. I really thought Trent would be the next Jimbo. He had that swagger and started out great, then the air went out of his sails, I just don't think he can recapture that mojo.

And as always Dog, and others, great conversation.

[Celtic_soulja]

His confidence may be damaged...maybe his broken...I don't think so though...I think this season was very circumstantial...the loss of talent on the OLine...the pressure to throw more because of bringing in T.O. didn't mix very well together, then the DJ pressure about winning because of his job...it was a complete mess and you cannot play worried...that's exactly the feeling that emulated...sure Fitzy came in with swagger because he had to "take" the job, he had nothing to lose...but after it was "his" job, he faultered as well...not as much as Edwards, but that's because again, where he was compared to where he was going was completely different, plus when he took over, we were at such a low point we couldn't do much worse no matter what happened...less pressure...Edwards, IMO, can rebound and his skills are good...I still believe in his potential...I do think he can regain his calm that he had before...at least I hope so...and considering all of situation in the draft and FA, I think it's our best bet THIS season...we'll find out what he's got, and then grab a QB at all costs next year if we need to...trade up and take the best available...we'll have much less to fill and will only really need an OLB possibly and a Franchise QB...so I think everything points to just going with Trent right now and beefing up to either train for the next future QB or for TE to become what we all thought he would become