Can we finally call Matt Leinart a bust?

[CarolinaBill]

DA is a replacement? For $3.25M/year no less (Leinart is making $2.485M this year).

7.25 is the total value, thats not his total salary, I'd be willing to bet his paragraph 5 is around 1-1.75 mil, and the rest is incentive and roster bonuses

[Mr. WEO]

I never claimed I was infallible (ahem) when judging players. Especially QB's, who even pros can't evaluate correctly. I also never made the silly statement that because I didn't know who a player was before the Bills drafted him, he would be a bust. That's your schtick. But I'd take JPL's 2006 season over anything Edwards, Holcomb, and especially Leinart (who you "dropped your seed" over back in the 2005 draft) have done these past 5 years.

My statement may have seemed silly (no sillier than you and others pretending you actually saw JPL play in college), but it proved prescient---his awe inspiring "2006 season" included.

 

I don't recall you labelling JP a bust after he missed his first season due to injury. Nor did you claim the same after he was twice benched for poor play for long stretches in his next year. Nor did you come to this conclusion in '08 when he whad a chance to start again and was aweful. In fact, to this day, you have yet to acknowledge the obvious--that he was a huge first round bust.

 

Yes, it would be stupid to fault him for not dislodging Warner. I fault him because he's "done nothing yet" in his time in the NFL, when he's had the chance to play. And he's had chances to prove himself. That's the reason the Cards haven't/won't name him the starter before training camp finishes, and instead signed a guy who's proven to be a 1-year wonder for $3.6M/year, to compete with him. And without Boldin, it will only be worse for him.

Not quite. Sounds like the aquisition of Anderson ended the QB competition. Leinart is the starter.

 

 

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...on-bickley.html

 

 

Yup, no Boldin will be a tough obstacle to overcome on a team bereft of remaining WRs.

 

 

Look, if Leinart, by the end of the season, hasn't outplayed Anderson then I will declare him a bust. I'm a fair man.

 

Nice to see you can spot a "one year wonder"---or can you?

[Doc]

My statement may have seemed silly (no sillier than you and others pretending you actually saw JPL play in college), but it proved prescient---his awe inspiring "2006 season" included.

 

I don't recall you labelling JP a bust after he missed his first season due to injury. Nor did you claim the same after he was twice benched for poor play for long stretches in his next year. Nor did you come to this conclusion in '08 when he whad a chance to start again and was aweful. In fact, to this day, you have yet to acknowledge the obvious--that he was a huge first round bust.

 

 

Not quite. Sounds like the aquisition of Anderson ended the QB competition. Leinart is the starter.

 

 

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...on-bickley.html

 

 

Yup, no Boldin will be a tough obstacle to overcome on a team bereft of remaining WRs.

 

 

Look, if Leinart, by the end of the season, hasn't outplayed Anderson then I will declare him a bust. I'm a fair man.

 

Nice to see you can spot a "one year wonder"---or can you?

Look doc, we went over that "since I, Mr. WEO, had never heard of JPL before the Bills drafted him, no one else possibly could have!" laugher. Again, just because you are ignorant, don't project your lack of knowledge onto others. JP was considered one of the top-5 QB's heading into the 2004 draft, and as I told you, was rated the top QB prior to the 2003 season by BLESTO, which is how I first heard about him. I'll make the assumption (against my better judgment) that even you know who the top-5 QB's in this draft are, and it doesn't even approach that 2004 draft.

 

And yes, JP was a bust. But "huge" is reserved for a guy like Leinart, who was (over)hyped coming out of college, taken 10th overall and given a 6-year $51M contract and who in 4 years, 29 games, and 16 starts, has compiled a 57.1 completion percentage, 14 TD's and 20 INT's (essentially a no year non-wonder). This despite 2 All-Pro WR's and some pretty good 3rd WR's (so yes, the loss of Boldin certainly won't help him much). Not the 22nd overall with a contract roughly half that amount.

 

And if Leinart hasn't outplayed Anderson you'll call him a bust? Wow, that's really setting the bar high! But who are you kidding? We all know that you won't call him a bust period, because you've entrenched yourself with him. It will be a "the situation changed" or some such excuse.

[Mr. WEO]

Look doc, we went over that "since I, Mr. WEO, had never heard of JPL before the Bills drafted him, no one else possibly could have!" laugher. Again, just because you are ignorant, don't project your lack of knowledge onto others. JP was considered one of the top-5 QB's heading into the 2004 draft, and as I told you, was rated the top QB prior to the 2003 season by BLESTO, which is how I first heard about him. I'll make the assumption (against my better judgment) that even you know who the top-5 QB's in this draft are, and it doesn't even approach that 2004 draft.

 

And yes, JP was a bust. But "huge" is reserved for a guy like Leinart, who was (over)hyped coming out of college, taken 10th overall and given a 6-year $51M contract and who in 4 years, 29 games, and 16 starts, has compiled a 57.1 completion percentage, 14 TD's and 20 INT's (essentially a no year non-wonder). This despite 2 All-Pro WR's and some pretty good 3rd WR's (so yes, the loss of Boldin certainly won't help him much). Not the 22nd overall with a contract roughly half that amount.

 

And if Leinart hasn't outplayed Anderson you'll call him a bust? Wow, that's really setting the bar high! But who are you kidding? We all know that you won't call him a bust period, because you've entrenched yourself with him. It will be a "the situation changed" or some such excuse.

Look, what can I say? Everyone knew who the top QBs coming out in 2004 were--perhaps my statement at the time was a bit hyperbolic (I had never seen the guy play and I am certain you never had either--he wasn't on my radar as a 1st round pick), but JPL didn't belong in that list. He was a nobody at a crappy program. BLESTO shmesto---you've gone on and on about that rating for years---I never claimed you never heard of him.

 

Even if he was accepted universally as a guy who could be mentioned in the same paragraph as Manning, Big Ben and Rivers, he had bust written all over him---and it was apparent as soon as he was handed the starting job his second year. You never could figure this out for years, even as he murdered his own "comeback" in '08. You had the same problem letting go of RJ.

 

So, to summarize your argument: coming out of college, JPL was the 5th best QB in the country (out of Conf USA TULANE!)--on par with the three QBs listed above...and after passing for 10,700 yards, 99 TDs and going 37-2 in the Pac 10 and winning a national title Leinart was "overhyped" coming out of college???

 

Awesome!

 

Also, he has been stuck behind certain HOFer Warner for the past 2 years---that's his fault too, I guess. If the Bills had picked up a guy like Warner after JPL's first two years, before heading to the bench for the next few years, JP's numbers would look like this: 1392 yards, 49.6%, 8 TDs and 9 ints, 1-7 record. You would not have called him a bust at that point (hell, you didn't call him one when he took a job in the UFL!).

 

Unlike you, I will not try to alter history--that's Doc's bag. If Leinart can't best Anderson--he's a bust. Straight up.

[Doc]

Look, what can I say? Everyone knew who the top QBs coming out in 2004 were--perhaps my statement at the time was a bit hyperbolic (I had never seen the guy play and I am certain you never had either--he wasn't on my radar as a 1st round pick), but JPL didn't belong in that list. He was a nobody at a crappy program. BLESTO shmesto---you've gone on and on about that rating for years---I never claimed you never heard of him.

 

Even if he was accepted universally as a guy who could be mentioned in the same paragraph as Manning, Big Ben and Rivers, he had bust written all over him---and it was apparent as soon as he was handed the starting job his second year. You never could figure this out for years, even as he murdered his own "comeback" in '08. You had the same problem letting go of RJ.

 

So, to summarize your argument: coming out of college, JPL was the 5th best QB in the country (out of Conf USA TULANE!)--on par with the three QBs listed above...and after passing for 10,700 yards, 99 TDs and going 37-2 in the Pac 10 and winning a national title Leinart was "overhyped" coming out of college???

 

Awesome!

 

Also, he has been stuck behind certain HOFer Warner for the past 2 years---that's his fault too, I guess. If the Bills had picked up a guy like Warner after JPL's first two years, before heading to the bench for the next few years, JP's numbers would look like this: 1392 yards, 49.6%, 8 TDs and 9 ints, 1-7 record. You would not have called him a bust at that point (hell, you didn't call him one when he took a job in the UFL!).

 

Unlike you, I will not try to alter history--that's Doc's bag. If Leinart can't best Anderson--he's a bust. Straight up.

Bahahahaha! You never claimed I had never heard of JP before the Bills drafted him? What was that about altering history?

 

The point about him being one of the top-5 QB's going into the 2004 draft is that ANYONE who followed the draft knew who JP was. The fact that you didn't speaks to you and you alone. And as I explained, after BLESTO rated him the #1 QB going into the 2003 college season (over the highly-touted Eli Manning, which is why it caught my attention), I made sure I saw at least one Tulane game (and I did, on ESPN2, late one night). You know, you're certain of a lot of stuff. But there's a huge difference between what you're certain of, and what's real.

 

As for being a nobody at a crappy program, despite this, obviously people (well, again, most of them) still managed to find out who JP was. Sure he wasn't at USC, surrounded by top talent and riding their coattails. If he were, he'd probably also have been a top-10 pick himself. But being the talent evaluator you are, you knew immediately after the Bills drafted him that he'd suck, based on never having heard of him, much less seen him play. While you heard about and saw a lot of Leinart, "dropped your seed" prior to the 2005 draft hoping the Bills would draft him, have watched him be no less of a bust than JP, and you still think he's anything but?

 

Awesome!

 

Take a look at last season, doc (his 4th in the NFL, all in the same system). He threw for 0 TD's and 3 INT's, and in his only start, he lost to the Titans, snapping a Cardinals 5-game winning streak. And in that game, he had Fitz, Boldin, Breaston, and Doucet as receivers, yet his top receiver (Boldin) caught 5 passes for 53 yards while Fitz caught 4 passes for 34 yards. Hmmmmm. I guess Fitz and Boldin were"irrelevant on the field" for that game. And I'm sure losing Boldin won't make a difference. Someone has to catch those passes.

 

There's a reason few people are picking the Cards to do much next year. And beating out Anderson doesn't mean he's still not a bust.

[Mr. WEO]

Bahahahaha! You never claimed I had never heard of JP before the Bills drafted him? What was that about altering history?

I claimed that you never saw him play---your new "I saw him late one nite on ESPN2" lame claim not withstanding. You made your BLESTO reference many times.

 

 

As for being a nobody at a crappy program, despite this, obviously people (well, again, most of them) still managed to find out who JP was. Sure he wasn't at USC, surrounded by top talent and riding their coattails. If he were, he'd probably also have been a top-10 pick himself. But being the talent evaluator you are, you knew immediately after the Bills drafted him that he'd suck, based on never having heard of him, much less seen him play. While you heard about and saw a lot of Leinart, "dropped your seed" prior to the 2005 draft hoping the Bills would draft him, have watched him be no less of a bust than JP, and you still think he's anything but?

 

Awesome!

 

Take a look at last season, doc (his 4th in the NFL, all in the same system). He threw for 0 TD's and 3 INT's, and in his only start, he lost to the Titans, snapping a Cardinals 5-game winning streak. And in that game, he had Fitz, Boldin, Breaston, and Doucet as receivers, yet his top receiver (Boldin) caught 5 passes for 53 yards while Fitz caught 4 passes for 34 yards. Hmmmmm. I guess Fitz and Boldin were"irrelevant on the field" for that game. And I'm sure losing Boldin won't make a difference. Someone has to catch those passes.

 

There's a reason few people are picking the Cards to do much next year. And beating out Anderson doesn't mean he's still not a bust.

I thought Leinart would be a good draft because I saw him play many times---not because I read somewhere that he was as good as Big Ben, Rivers and Manning. It was an opinion I formed myself. You went with another way. I was correct on JP. You cannot argue otherwise. I may be wrong on Leinart, but since I don't know what he can do at this point as he hasn't been the regular starter in two years, the evidence of him being a bust is not yet as overwhelming as it was (early on) for JPL.

 

If he can't beat out Anderson, he's done. And nice to see to see you already backpedalling with "And beating out Anderson doesn't mean he's still not a bust."