SuperKillerRobots Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 The start point for both franchises could not be more different. Buffalo is in full on rebuild mode, and the Steelers have avoided free agency when they were coming off good seasons. As a matter of fact, Pittsburgh has had only 1 LOSING season since 2000. Steelers Season Team Records Pittsburgh's draft record is excellent, so free agency is optional for them whereas Buffalo has 1 WINNING season in that same timeframe. Free Agency should not be optional for them. I don't understand the fascination with FA as a fix-all for bad teams. FA is usually only successful when when teams have a vet presence to indoctrinate the new players with the culture of the team. FA seems to be more of a mechanism to add pieces than it does to create. God teams create a team through the draft or key trades (less likely). Outside of Brees going to NO, it's hard to find other examples of players coming to new teams and making them great or good. And how often do franchise QBs switch teams?
San Jose Bills Fan Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 Dansby couldnt help this team? what about Jamal Williams, Bryant, Porter or Foote thats 5 players off the top of my head....there are or were quality players out there The Bills would have to overpay for any of the above players. And how would the addition of any two of the above players manifest itself in the win-loss column? Add any two and the Bills still wouldn't make the playoffs in all probability. Did Haynesworth get the Redskins to the playoffs? Matt Cassell, Laveranues Coles, TJ Houshmandzadeh, Terrell Owens, Jason Brown, Brian Dawkins, Derrick Ward...were the top free agents from last year. None of these very high-priced players made much of an impact last year. Only one (Coles) actually made the playoffs. The best free agents were probably guys like Matt Birk and Jabbari Greer...and those free agents who stayed with their original teams. In the grand scheme, very few agents make a significant impact. And this year, for reasons already established, is one of the worst free agent classes ever.
rpcolosi Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I know this is extremely unpopular (especially with all our needs), but I think Buddy Nix & Doug Whaley (who is the player personnel director from Pittsburgh) are utilizing a strategy seen in Pittsburgh...It is not a fun way to look at this team because we'll never look to sign anyone in Free Agency but mere role players (i.e. dimeback corners, long snappers, blocking Tight Ends, 3rd Running Back)....Some may call this cheap, but it has worked in Pittsburgh (albeit Pittsburgh has signed some guys this off-season)....However, as everyone knows with Pittsburgh, you MUST find the gems in the draft....You had a good draft last year (Wood, Levitre, Byrd, Nelson) and if we can build on that this year (with an awesome draft) maybe we'll be dare I say it 8-8....I know its a huge gamble for the Bills with all the needs but if they can pull it off, they may be good in 2-3 years. And I know the 2-3 years thing is something most fans don't want to accept and I know I don't want to stomach missing the playoffs for another few years.....I am saying this based on remembering '83, '84, '85, '87, '88 drafts...IT TOOK 5 DRAFTS FOR US TO PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER (remember it was before Free Agency, too)... Shoot darts at me if you want, but based on our needs and the overall weakness thus far of free agency, this appears to be the way they are going (long term vs. short term overpaid solution).... I am not happy with it but I am willing to give this group time and see what happens.. You are very correct. And the Chargers operated in the same manor. They'll occasionally sign a modest FA but not that often. It is the smart and ideal way to build a team. Like in any sport, be it baseball, football, hockey - teams are built through the draft. We need to stop being idiots on this board and look at what successful franchises do....
mob16151 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 their strategy is that Ralph is cheap, its not anymore complicated then that Because were not in the top half of the league in regards to player salaries every freaking season.
Paup 1995MVP Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 That was dumb as hell. We are building through the DRAFT period. If you and others can't get that, or don't like it, maybe its time to find a new team? Nix has already said he is not going to sign bigtime 'Name' players and I agree with him, they are not worth it. If some mid tier guys want to be here fine, if not fine. It is time to rebuld through the DRAFT and resign and keep our own. You post more than most people text. And for the amount you post, you say very little. We still need two tackles, depth on the interior of the OL, help at WR, TE, and at least 4 more guys who are good in our front seven, and a QB. And you think we are going to draft all those players. What you say makes no sense. There are plenty of solid veterans who are available this year in free agency. And by just signing one O lineman so far, we are making a HUGE mistake. Sure we need to draft some solid players, but we need to improve right away. What is wrong with bringing in "name" players? Every other team in the league tries to do that. "Name" players are usually pretty darn good. And that is the problem with our team. We don't have a lot of GOOD players. Our talent across the roster is probably bottom 5 in the league. You think just drafting is going to make us competitive? Keep dreaming. This was a horrible 6-10 team last year that played like a 3 win team most of the time. Tell me what have we done to get better other than bringing in Cornell Green. When you bring a free agent in for a visit, it should ONLY be with the intention of signing him. Otherwise don't waste your time. The only way we can sign anyone is to overpay, because why would most players want to play for a team that has been as bad as we have for so long? And we don't seem to even want to pay market value for anyone. I am as big a fan as anyone on this board. But I am quite disappointed by the inactivity shown by our front office again. Has anyone looked at our receivers at this moment? Evans, Johnson, Parrish and Hardy. Enough said. Our TE's? Nelson, Schouman, Stupar and Klopfenstein. Our QB's? ARGHHH!!!
Buffaloed in Pa Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 The Bills are going to rebuild this team through the draft. They have no other choice. Stringing togother a few consecutive years of solid drafts will put the Bills in position to compete. Their franchise qb probably won't be available in this draft, a developmental qb at best will be acquired, so the best strategy to take is to rebuild the lines, get heftier and stronger as a team and develop its own players. It is frustrating that it is, at best, going to take a few more years, added on top of a lost decade, but I don't see any other approach which will work. The Jets, Phins and Patriots are significantly better than we are at this point. It is going to take years for us to move ahead of any of these teams. Having an owner who is almost 92 yrs old certainly doesn't help the situation. But you deal with where you are at, not with what you would wish it would be. Hit the nail on the head.
Bob in STL Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I know this is extremely unpopular (especially with all our needs), but I think Buddy Nix & Doug Whaley (who is the player personnel director from Pittsburgh) are utilizing a strategy seen in Pittsburgh...It is not a fun way to look at this team because we'll never look to sign anyone in Free Agency but mere role players (i.e. dimeback corners, long snappers, blocking Tight Ends, 3rd Running Back)....Some may call this cheap, but it has worked in Pittsburgh (albeit Pittsburgh has signed some guys this off-season)....However, as everyone knows with Pittsburgh, you MUST find the gems in the draft....You had a good draft last year (Wood, Levitre, Byrd, Nelson) and if we can build on that this year (with an awesome draft) maybe we'll be dare I say it 8-8....I know its a huge gamble for the Bills with all the needs but if they can pull it off, they may be good in 2-3 years. And I know the 2-3 years thing is something most fans don't want to accept and I know I don't want to stomach missing the playoffs for another few years.....I am saying this based on remembering '83, '84, '85, '87, '88 drafts...IT TOOK 5 DRAFTS FOR US TO PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER (remember it was before Free Agency, too)... Shoot darts at me if you want, but based on our needs and the overall weakness thus far of free agency, this appears to be the way they are going (long term vs. short term overpaid solution).... I am not happy with it but I am willing to give this group time and see what happens.. Right on. If we can find another 4 players this year that would be amazing. A trade down might be needed to do that. The best teams have used free agency to fill holes or add a missing piece. Your core players have to come from the draft. ... and this just in ... you then need to re-sign them when their contracts are up to avoid re-drafting the same positions over and over (see Bills - cornerback and running back saga).
Spillerwich Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I know this is extremely unpopular (especially with all our needs), but I think Buddy Nix & Doug Whaley (who is the player personnel director from Pittsburgh) are utilizing a strategy seen in Pittsburgh...It is not a fun way to look at this team because we'll never look to sign anyone in Free Agency but mere role players (i.e. dimeback corners, long snappers, blocking Tight Ends, 3rd Running Back)....Some may call this cheap, but it has worked in Pittsburgh (albeit Pittsburgh has signed some guys this off-season)....However, as everyone knows with Pittsburgh, you MUST find the gems in the draft....You had a good draft last year (Wood, Levitre, Byrd, Nelson) and if we can build on that this year (with an awesome draft) maybe we'll be dare I say it 8-8....I know its a huge gamble for the Bills with all the needs but if they can pull it off, they may be good in 2-3 years. And I know the 2-3 years thing is something most fans don't want to accept and I know I don't want to stomach missing the playoffs for another few years.....I am saying this based on remembering '83, '84, '85, '87, '88 drafts...IT TOOK 5 DRAFTS FOR US TO PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER (remember it was before Free Agency, too)... Shoot darts at me if you want, but based on our needs and the overall weakness thus far of free agency, this appears to be the way they are going (long term vs. short term overpaid solution).... I am not happy with it but I am willing to give this group time and see what happens.. You can also look at how Buddy helped bring the Chargers back into prominence. He did it with the draft and not with big splashes in free agency. Unfortunately for Bills fans we need to be patient
JohnC Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 If you want to patch a few holes and try to get to .500 this season -- like they've been doing for most of the decade -- then sure. But not as a long-term plan. You mean to tell me that a 92 yr old owner has a long term plan in place? Seems odd to me. Maybe he has stellar genes.
Green Lightning Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I'm all for sitting out free agency, they are awful at it anyway. Problem is, they have to draft a lot smarter than they have. Last years draft is nothing for a rebuilding team to hang it's hat on. Wood and Levitre were interior offensive lineman picked on the first day. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. Byrd was a success, but he's also a free safety. Again, not a hard position to fill. Nelson showed very little. On a good team, he'd be way down the depth chart. In short, the Bills added three starting type players at "filler"positions and a TE with some potential but nothing else. What has killed this team on draft day is not getting the difference makers at KEY positions of QB, OT, DT and DE filled. They tried with Maybin, but on tape it appears that this guy is not fast or physical enough to be special as a DE or rush OLB. In recent years they have gotten too cute on draft day. Reaching up for an undersized SS in Whitner, using a #11 overall on a RB without speed or size or hands then trading away valuable extra picks to move up and get "deadweight" McCargo and Poz. Even if they nailed the Whitner, Lynch and Poz picks they still wouldn't have gotten franchise type players. They've been careless on draft day, reaching, trading up for average talent, not working to stockpile picks and subsequently increase their odds of success...... Now that Nix is the GM, hopefully they can start building this team like a winner. But right now, I will "Billieve" it when I see it. I agree with your premise, but don't paint with too wide a brush. Shooting fish in a barrel? Easy to find a free satety? Nelson showed little? That's just not accurate. . Last year's draft (save Maybin and he still may show something) was damn good and is indeed something we can build on. Drafting takes smarts, patience, work, investigtion and guts. A little luck helps. Buddy's shown all of that in his track record.
JohnC Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 ... and this just in ... you then need to re-sign them when their contracts are up to avoid re-drafting the same positions over and over (see Bills - cornerback and running back saga). I don't want to rehash the past but the Peters situation illustrates your point about not re-signing players and then having to go back and redraft the same position. If we could have kept him then we would have been able to address another critical need such as the DL etc. When we let McGahee go we then went back and drafted Lynch. When we let Fletcher go we then took Poz. With this type of approach you are not adding talent merely replacing it. The McGahee situation is a little different in that he wanted out. But using another first round pick to replace him, who was also a first round pick, doesn't move you ahead. It seems that our business model is when a player gets into his more lucrative contract year he will predictably be replaced by a cheaper player. That strategy might be wonderful for the bottom line but it isn't very helpful for the team's won/lost record.
Thurman#1 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 You post more than most people text. And for the amount you post, you say very little. We still need two tackles, depth on the interior of the OL, help at WR, TE, and at least 4 more guys who are good in our front seven, and a QB. And you think we are going to draft all those players. Yes he does, and yes we will. Over the next two to four years.
Thurman#1 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I don't understand the fascination with FA as a fix-all for bad teams. FA is usually only successful when when teams have a vet presence to indoctrinate the new players with the culture of the team. FA seems to be more of a mechanism to add pieces than it does to create. God teams create a team through the draft or key trades (less likely). Outside of Brees going to NO, it's hard to find other examples of players coming to new teams and making them great or good. And how often do franchise QBs switch teams? Yup. The last one before Brees might have been Reggie White going to Green Bay.
JohnC Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 The start point for both franchises could not be more different. Buffalo is in full on rebuild mode, and the Steelers have avoided free agency when they were coming off good seasons. As a matter of fact, Pittsburgh has had only 1 LOSING season since 2000. Steelers Season Team Records Pittsburgh's draft record is excellent, so free agency is optional for them whereas Buffalo has 1 WINNING season in that same timeframe. Free Agency should not be optional for them. Let's compare the two franchises. Pittsburgh has better ownership than we do. Pittsburgh has had a better front office than we do. Pittsburgh has had better coaches than we do. The Steelers have had better ownership and organizational structure than we have had. The results are blatantly obvious. It seems to me that the Bills are trying to emulate the structure that the Steelers have had. They are moving towards a more fundamentally sound approach of running the organization. Last year, the Bills took a gimmick approach with the signing of TO which resulted in Hardy and Johnson not getting much playing time. That resulted in retarding their development or at least hindering the staff from fairly assessing them as players. The ownership of the Bills is what it is. Much to my frustration there is nothing you can do about it. The situation will play itself out. But I do sense that the Bills do have a strategy which in the long run will be successful. The Bills squandered three years under the Levy/Brandon boondogle. Just think if Levy during his tenure would have drafted some quality O-linemen instead of paying preimium prices for mediocre talents. Our upcoming draft strategy would be so much more flexible. It is way past due to start doing things the right way in the short term and over a period of time it will workout well in the long run.
Thurman#1 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I'm all for sitting out free agency, they are awful at it anyway. Problem is, they have to draft a lot smarter than they have. Last years draft is nothing for a rebuilding team to hang it's hat on. Wood and Levitre were interior offensive lineman picked on the first day. That's like shooting fish in a barrel. Byrd was a success, but he's also a free safety. Again, not a hard position to fill. Nelson showed very little. On a good team, he'd be way down the depth chart. In short, the Bills added three starting type players at "filler"positions and a TE with some potential but nothing else. What has killed this team on draft day is not getting the difference makers at KEY positions of QB, OT, DT and DE filled. They tried with Maybin, but on tape it appears that this guy is not fast or physical enough to be special as a DE or rush OLB. In recent years they have gotten too cute on draft day. Reaching up for an undersized SS in Whitner, using a #11 overall on a RB without speed or size or hands then trading away valuable extra picks to move up and get "deadweight" McCargo and Poz. Even if they nailed the Whitner, Lynch and Poz picks they still wouldn't have gotten franchise type players. They've been careless on draft day, reaching, trading up for average talent, not working to stockpile picks and subsequently increase their odds of success...... Now that Nix is the GM, hopefully they can start building this team like a winner. But right now, I will "Billieve" it when I see it. 1) And you think shooting fish in a barrel is BAD? Seriously? 2) The offensive line IS NOT FILLER on winning teams. 3) Yeah, we have made some extraordinarily bad picks over the last few years. But not because we had a bad philosophy (except for the Whitner pick). It's mostly just missing, having targeted a guy and not done a good enough job of figuring out if he will be good. And it also may have had a lot to do with our coaches not doing a good job of developing the players (Losman, particularly).
Thurman#1 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 They need to bridge the gap to the rookies they'll be drafting. Buffalo had a good idea in finding depth guys in 06, but their judgment on those players was poor. To make matters worse, they weren't all that great drafting from 04-08 either, thus magnifying the problem. I'm advocating a calculated approach where the improved Pro Personnel Department finds a starter or two and locates some depth. Meanwhile, college scouting is drafting their replacements. This is especially true while they transition from a 4-3 to a 3-4. Yeah, that's where we're headed, I believe. We will need to find a starter or two, but shouldn't expect the Bills to do it by acquiring guys like Julius Peppers who is too expensive and doesn't really appear to love football. But yeah, we'll probably need to get a journeyman type of starter or two. Another terrific use of FA is to get guys later in their careers who really know how to lead, guys who are terrific examples, guys who can help to create a winning culture. We haven't really had guys like that since Takeo and Fletcher left the team. Whitner tries, but he's not quite there.
Thurman#1 Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 so you are content with missing the the playoffs for another 2-3 years...i dont see how any fan can be When we all believe that the alternative is missing the playoffs for another 5 - 6 years and having to start over yet again using the correct method at that time, I don't see how any fan can NOT be.
tonyjustbcuz Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 I know this is extremely unpopular (especially with all our needs), but I think Buddy Nix & Doug Whaley (who is the player personnel director from Pittsburgh) are utilizing a strategy seen in Pittsburgh...It is not a fun way to look at this team because we'll never look to sign anyone in Free Agency but mere role players (i.e. dimeback corners, long snappers, blocking Tight Ends, 3rd Running Back)....Some may call this cheap, but it has worked in Pittsburgh (albeit Pittsburgh has signed some guys this off-season)....However, as everyone knows with Pittsburgh, you MUST find the gems in the draft....You had a good draft last year (Wood, Levitre, Byrd, Nelson) and if we can build on that this year (with an awesome draft) maybe we'll be dare I say it 8-8....I know its a huge gamble for the Bills with all the needs but if they can pull it off, they may be good in 2-3 years. And I know the 2-3 years thing is something most fans don't want to accept and I know I don't want to stomach missing the playoffs for another few years.....I am saying this based on remembering '83, '84, '85, '87, '88 drafts...IT TOOK 5 DRAFTS FOR US TO PUT THE PUZZLE TOGETHER (remember it was before Free Agency, too)... Shoot darts at me if you want, but based on our needs and the overall weakness thus far of free agency, this appears to be the way they are going (long term vs. short term overpaid solution).... I am not happy with it but I am willing to give this group time and see what happens.. The fan in me who desires immediate gratificatiion from our Buffalo Bills hates your post, but the logical thinker in me that realizes that the new personnel people and coaches are not responsible for the past decade except for maybe Tom Modrak that is. Still it's hard to swallow the notion that way probably will have to wait three years to have realistic playoff expectations! I'm not bashing your post at all, because like I said I understand the thinking as long as the Bill's war room can draft the right players and avoid foolish endeavors and blunders of past drafts. IE: Mike Williams and IMO (so far) Aaron Maybin. Maybe in the 3-4 Aaron Maybe Maybin can get his burners lit and be noticed? I just don't like drafting players who are significantly underweight for the position. It's a big man's sport excluding a few skill positions. My biggest concern with the suggested method of building a franchise based solely on the previous decade is that you have to pay your players to stay when their contract is about to expire and re-sign them. Buddy Nix mentioned in his press conference that he rather pay his own players to stay than to acquire new FA's. He mentioned how building a reputation that the Buffalo Bills will retain their players and pay them to stay is important in influencing other players to come to Buffalo when pursued. That also will take time to build and I hope that Buddy Nix will stay true to his word on that issue as losing so many players in FA was painful: A. Winfield, P. Williams, N. Clements, J. Greer, and several others. Each time you lose one you have to develop another one on your roster to fill their shoes, or accept that you have degraded quality at the position with a fill the gap type of player, or you have to find a player in the draft or FA to make up the loss which often means spending the same or more money to replace the player that you didn't want to pay the big bucks for! So, if they pay their players at contract renewal time then I am onboard with their mentality, but I expect the Bills to have a impact draft with no holds barred this year!!!! That means they need to be active in the selection process, move up or down (although I hate moving down for more picks personally), consider trading tradeable players such as Parrish, Lynch and others who may not fit their plans or show the character that a good team displays. They must draft a OLT, QB, NT/DT, WR, LB If we are to take them seriously, or pickup the equivalent in FA. If they fail here than I will definitely be pessimistic about their longterm future based on their initial actions. I know my post is long, but the Bills really are a high maintenence team that will require a great deal of thought and coaching if they are going to move forward and seperate themselves from the mediocrity that they have maintained in the past decade. My 2010-11 prediction: 5 Wins 11 Losses !! Now RALPH, BUDDY, DOUG, TOM, CHAN, RUSS show me that I am wrong!!!! (Please)!
apuszczalowski Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 When you want to rebut my point, please let me know. By the way, what's your plan for introducing a new offense and defense with holdovers from the previous coaching staff? Most of the posters like you on this board evidently believe the mere presence of Gailey and Nix with some rookies will turn this thing around. Unfortunately, rookies rarely perform well and it's important for veteran players to be involved. I've never demanded big name UFA signings. I'm simply looking for them not to rely on rookies every year like successful teams do when they rebuild. ATL, BAL, and MIA in 2008. NE in 2000. NO in 2006. If you pay attention to the GM and coach, they aren'y going to chose some type of offence and force the players to play in it. One of Gaileys biggest strengths is adapting the schemes towards the players he has and their strengths. As for the defence, they said they will not be going with a full 3-4 defence, its going to be more of a Hybrid one as they work towards becoming more of a full time 3-4 defence
JohnC Posted March 14, 2010 Posted March 14, 2010 The fan in me who desires immediate gratificatiion from our Buffalo Bills hates your post, but the logical thinker in me that realizes that the new personnel people and coaches are not responsible for the past decade except for maybe Tom Modrak that is. Still it's hard to swallow the notion that way probably will have to wait three years to have realistic playoff expectations! I'm not bashing your post at all, because like I said I understand the thinking as long as the Bill's war room can draft the right players and avoid foolish endeavors and blunders of past drafts. IE: Mike Williams and IMO (so far) Aaron Maybin. Maybe in the 3-4 Aaron Maybe Maybin can get his burners lit and be noticed? I just don't like drafting players who are significantly underweight for the position. It's a big man's sport excluding a few skill positions. My biggest concern with the suggested method of building a franchise based solely on the previous decade is that you have to pay your players to stay when their contract is about to expire and re-sign them. Buddy Nix mentioned in his press conference that he rather pay his own players to stay than to acquire new FA's. He mentioned how building a reputation that the Buffalo Bills will retain their players and pay them to stay is important in influencing other players to come to Buffalo when pursued. That also will take time to build and I hope that Buddy Nix will stay true to his word on that issue as losing so many players in FA was painful: A. Winfield, P. Williams, N. Clements, J. Greer, and several others. Each time you lose one you have to develop another one on your roster to fill their shoes, or accept that you have degraded quality at the position with a fill the gap type of player, or you have to find a player in the draft or FA to make up the loss which often means spending the same or more money to replace the player that you didn't want to pay the big bucks for! So, if they pay their players at contract renewal time then I am onboard with their mentality, but I expect the Bills to have a impact draft with no holds barred this year!!!! That means they need to be active in the selection process, move up or down (although I hate moving down for more picks personally), consider trading tradeable players such as Parrish, Lynch and others who may not fit their plans or show the character that a good team displays. They must draft a OLT, QB, NT/DT, WR, LB If we are to take them seriously, or pickup the equivalent in FA. If they fail here than I will definitely be pessimistic about their longterm future based on their initial actions. I know my post is long, but the Bills really are a high maintenence team that will require a great deal of thought and coaching if they are going to move forward and seperate themselves from the mediocrity that they have maintained in the past decade. My 2010-11 prediction: 5 Wins 11 Losses !! Now RALPH, BUDDY, DOUG, TOM, CHAN, RUSS show me that I am wrong!!!! (Please)! On target.
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