ICE Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 OR BOTH? I gotta go with option C on this one. I am seeing a common trend that most here want to ignore. it takes BOTH the QB and the OL 50/50 to help each other out. does a QB need time? Sure he does...about 3 seconds. but the flipside of that is a QB must help out the OL. By getting rid of the ball QUICKLY that takes a ton of stress off of the OL and places the stress on the defense. (Disclaimer...this is not a knock against any QB in particular) The Successful QB's in the league still get sacked. The Best OL's in the league give up sacks. NO OL in the world can block 8 men with 5. Esp if it is a well designed blitz. Even keeping in a back and TE it is still tough sometimes and drops the time a QB has to throw. QB's help by MOVING in or around in the pocket. In some cases they roll the pocket or even roll out on thier own (Favre is the best example). I saw a game last week where McNabb bout TEN Seconds to throw. TEN by moving out of the pocket. Result? 60 yard pass. This has to be a give and take folks. In the past we have had instances where our QB's have had about 1.5 seconds to throw. fine, THROW THE BALL. Just get rid of it. don't take a sack. Don't put it up in a lob pass to be picked off. Just fire it into the sidelines or about 5 yards off the LOS into the dirt, toward a WR. Observation by a QB has to be accounted for as well. Too many times across the league I see teams lineing up at the LOS ready to bring it. The QB goes ahead and snaps the ball with 10 seconds left. Me? I stand up, take a breath and see about where the Blitz is coming from. Hopefully if I am a veteran QB all I have to do is look at my WR's and they know I am saying "Blitz route" THEN we snap the ball. It is out of my hands on a 2 step drop. OR I walk back to shotgun to give me .5 to 1 more second in case it is a fake blitz. It is astonishing to me how only a handful of QB's have this skillset in this day and time. Manning being the top guy followed by Favre. Bottom line BOTH have to help each other out. OL's must make their blocking assignments and QB's must get rid of the ball.
kota Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Hence the following word. Let me spell it out for you. T E A M
stevestojan Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 is there an I in team 133930[/snapback] no, but there is an I in WIN.
njsue Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 When will some of the lineman do their job right. Jonas Jennings is a starter. Dont know what happened to Mike Williams. Please Trey Teague makes me Sick. To me the best player on the line is Virella(not sure if i am spelling his name right)
Rico Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 no, but there is an I in WIN. 133932[/snapback] And there is a LOSE in BLEDSOE.
stevestojan Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 And there is a LOSE in BLEDSOE. 133937[/snapback] coincidence? you can also rearrange the letters in Bledsoe to get: BED WED LOSER LOSE DR. DWEEB
ICE Posted November 26, 2004 Author Posted November 26, 2004 Hence the following word. Let me spell it out for you.T E A M 133928[/snapback] Ok maybe you missed the point. It takes BOTH. Now if you go back and think...maybe one part of this equation isn't doing their job? Whom could that be?
Guffalo Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Ok maybe you missed the point. It takes BOTH. Now if you go back and think...maybe one part of this equation isn't doing their job? Whom could that be? 134068[/snapback] IMO, the reason the new Qbs are desirable is one I have stated several times whenever I stopped joking around. That is Fre agency has made the tandard, pocket passer extinct. Because no team is willing to sign long term big money contracts to lineman, a mobile QB is desirable. Look at the late 80's,early 90's, The Bills had a solid line, that was allowed to jell together, they played several years together and were a very close knit group, even with injuries, a new guy could step in, and in the case of a free agent signing, we had depth, and we just moved on.. Kelly was never considered a mobile QB, he could take his time and pick apart a defense. Fast forward to today, because of the salary cap, the offensive lineman are frequently seen changing teams because most teams will not keep a line together for a 3-5 year period. It just costs too much to keep a group together. Those Bills teams were built with a strong cohesive offensive line that was working together for 3-5 years, and if one took off or retired, the replacement just stepped in. Todays QB must be mobile enough to step up or roll aout away from pressure since the units are not quite as polished as they were several years ago, thus we see the success of McNabb, Culpepper, Favre and Vick, while pure pocket passers like Blesdoe, Green and Collins/Gannon have looked to be on the decline. Just my opinion
kota Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Ok maybe you missed the point. It takes BOTH. Now if you go back and think...maybe one part of this equation isn't doing their job? Whom could that be? 134068[/snapback] In order for an offense to be effective 11 guys have to be working together and on the same page. AS soon as one part of that offense is lacking you will get your 3 and outs, turnovers, etc.. Lets face it if you stop the Bills Running game your team wins. If the running game isn't effective you can pretty much assume that the OLIne is sucking it up out there. If you stop the run and put the Bills in long yardage situations then on 3rd down a Blitz will come. If the Bills can't stop that Blitz it is game over. I don't care which QB you pick in the league but no QB in the league has much of a chance when 2 people have gotten past the blockers. Bledsoe has proven many times this year that he can avoid one person. I have seen him sidestep and make throws, brush off a defensive player for a run, brush off a defensive player for a pass. He has done it consistently this year. Willis has helped tremendously with blocking since he has started. He doesn't miss many assignments and is a smarter player then Henry. Jim Kelly wouldn't have been able to do what he did without Thurman Thomas or Kenny Davis. Both of them were great at picking up the blitz. Bledsoe didn't play well at all against New England 2 weeks ago. He looked really bad. Any mistakes a QB could possibly make he did. This is the only loss this year that can be solely put on Bledsoe's shoulders. The rest of the loses you can chalk up to an offense that needed a longer preseason. This past week i think was a eye opener for the Bills team. They got behind early and came back strong against a playoff team. The offense kept the Bills in the game until the defense was able to make adjustments. With the help of the special teams the Bills buried the rams. I think the Bills learned how to win last week. The next couple of weeks will show if i am right or not.
njsue Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Hope your right. The Bills needed to get the idea of how to win. Now they have to make it consistant. We will see.
stuckincincy Posted November 26, 2004 Posted November 26, 2004 Ok maybe you missed the point. It takes BOTH. Now if you go back and think...maybe one part of this equation isn't doing their job? Whom could that be? 134068[/snapback] Certainly both. If forced to choose, line play has helped ok qb's a good bit more than superior qb's have helped them. As well as rb's. Joe Ferguson comes to mind - a decent athletic talent, a quick reader that used the extra second successfully. Simpson certainly helped, as did the wr's, but the talent and playcall schemes of the ol made it work. IIRC, a few weeks ago there was a reminiscence about the OL managed by Jim Ringo on TBD's daily topics.
ICE Posted November 26, 2004 Author Posted November 26, 2004 In order for an offense to be effective 11 guys have to be working together and on the same page. AS soon as one part of that offense is lacking you will get your 3 and outs, turnovers, etc.. Lets face it if you stop the Bills Running game your team wins. If the running game isn't effective you can pretty much assume that the OLIne is sucking it up out there. If you stop the run and put the Bills in long yardage situations then on 3rd down a Blitz will come. If the Bills can't stop that Blitz it is game over. I don't care which QB you pick in the league but no QB in the league has much of a chance when 2 people have gotten past the blockers. Bledsoe has proven many times this year that he can avoid one person. I have seen him sidestep and make throws, brush off a defensive player for a run, brush off a defensive player for a pass. He has done it consistently this year. Willis has helped tremendously with blocking since he has started. He doesn't miss many assignments and is a smarter player then Henry. Jim Kelly wouldn't have been able to do what he did without Thurman Thomas or Kenny Davis. Both of them were great at picking up the blitz. Bledsoe didn't play well at all against New England 2 weeks ago. He looked really bad. Any mistakes a QB could possibly make he did. This is the only loss this year that can be solely put on Bledsoe's shoulders. The rest of the loses you can chalk up to an offense that needed a longer preseason. This past week i think was a eye opener for the Bills team. They got behind early and came back strong against a playoff team. The offense kept the Bills in the game until the defense was able to make adjustments. With the help of the special teams the Bills buried the rams. I think the Bills learned how to win last week. The next couple of weeks will show if i am right or not. 134125[/snapback] learn how to win? Do it on the road. Do it consistantly against teams at home AND on the road THEN we are talking. Problem is you only have 10 men of the 11 that are capable of getting it together. Bashing aside at some point and time even the most ardent fans must recognise our starting QB does not have it. I don't care if he ever did or not, he does not NOW. He is not our answer. I don't expect a QB to carry an entire team, I DO Expect him not to be a liability. and that is what he is.
Guest Guest Posted November 27, 2004 Posted November 27, 2004 I don't think you can underestimate the contribution of the receivers as well, which is probably a function of their talent plus the offensive scheme. The Pats always impress me (or should I say, piss me off) when I watch them because, without question, their WRs always seem to be open. When Brady drops back to pass and heaves it, there is always this feeling that whoever he is throwing to will be open by a few yards. The Pats have good receivers, very good receivers, but nobody spectacular. They don't have a Moulds-type receiver who, when he is out there, provides some kind of bonus because teams "have to double team him." Yet they are always open. It's quite amazing, actually. I do agree with you that a lot of factors are involved in an offense's success. It's quite complicated, really. However, I have always believed, and will continue to believe forever and always, that you start building an offense by first putting together the best goddamn offensive line you can find.
IDBillzFan Posted November 27, 2004 Posted November 27, 2004 Problem is you only have 10 men of the 11 that are capable of getting it together. 134454[/snapback] Did you even read what Kota wrote? I would tend to agree with him that Bledsoe, at times, was the 1 out of 11 who didn't hold up his end of the bargain, but he sure as hell is not the sole reason week in and week out. I've watched Moulds drop ball after ball this year. At times, he was the 1 in 11. Should we get rid of Moulds because he is consistently doing bad things? The problem with the standard by which you hold Bledsoe, Ice, is that it's befitting of any number of players on this team. Reed. Moulds. Henry. And yes, Bledsoe. You just seem a bit obsessed with one of them. But it's good for you, because when Bledsoe is gone and Losman does what he's been hired to do, you can stand back and tell everyone how right you were.
ICE Posted November 27, 2004 Author Posted November 27, 2004 Did you even read what Kota wrote? I would tend to agree with him that Bledsoe, at times, was the 1 out of 11 who didn't hold up his end of the bargain, but he sure as hell is not the sole reason week in and week out. I've watched Moulds drop ball after ball this year. At times, he was the 1 in 11. Should we get rid of Moulds because he is consistently doing bad things? The problem with the standard by which you hold Bledsoe, Ice, is that it's befitting of any number of players on this team. Reed. Moulds. Henry. And yes, Bledsoe. You just seem a bit obsessed with one of them. But it's good for you, because when Bledsoe is gone and Losman does what he's been hired to do, you can stand back and tell everyone how right you were. 134648[/snapback] Understand this if I am right and get to 'sit back and tell everyone how right I was' it HELPS the BILLS! Look JP doesn't have to be all pro. People misunderstand this. He needs to be Mobile, smart and make good decisions. Name for me how many games in the last 2.5 years Bledsoe has done that? Not damn many. Now if JP can do this on a CONSISTANT BASIS then we have all we need at QB. Oh and lets not forget that 'LEADER' thing as well. Somehow I dont see leadership being an issue with JP.
IDBillzFan Posted November 27, 2004 Posted November 27, 2004 Understand this if I am right and get to 'sit back and tell everyone how right I was' it HELPS the BILLS! Look JP doesn't have to be all pro. People misunderstand this. He needs to be Mobile, smart and make good decisions. Name for me how many games in the last 2.5 years Bledsoe has done that? Not damn many. Now if JP can do this on a CONSISTANT BASIS then we have all we need at QB. Oh and lets not forget that 'LEADER' thing as well. Somehow I dont see leadership being an issue with JP. 134654[/snapback] The difference, Ice, is that you're acting like the season is over. And it's not. Do I expect the Bills to make the playoffs? Of course not. Based on our road record, we'll be lucky to get out of Seattle alive. But while you keep talking about reality, the one reality you consistently overlook is that we are still in it, and no coach in his right mind would concede while they are still in it. You would. We get it. Some of us wouldn't. Me included. I'd hate to think I ever quit at anything when there was still a chance. Putting Losman in right now won't make things better. They just won't. You may believe differently...and to each his own. But that's why we disagree. You've quit on the season already. You just don't want to wait until it's official. That's why you want to pull Bledsoe now. And to me, you never quit on the season until it's officially time to quit on the season. The time will come shortly. Just not while we're still in it.
kdharge Posted November 27, 2004 Posted November 27, 2004 OR BOTH? I gotta go with option C on this one. I am seeing a common trend that most here want to ignore. it takes BOTH the QB and the OL 50/50 to help each other out. does a QB need time? Sure he does...about 3 seconds. but the flipside of that is a QB must help out the OL. By getting rid of the ball QUICKLY that takes a ton of stress off of the OL and places the stress on the defense. (Disclaimer...this is not a knock against any QB in particular) The Successful QB's in the league still get sacked. The Best OL's in the league give up sacks. NO OL in the world can block 8 men with 5. Esp if it is a well designed blitz. Even keeping in a back and TE it is still tough sometimes and drops the time a QB has to throw. QB's help by MOVING in or around in the pocket. In some cases they roll the pocket or even roll out on thier own (Favre is the best example). I saw a game last week where McNabb bout TEN Seconds to throw. TEN by moving out of the pocket. Result? 60 yard pass. This has to be a give and take folks. In the past we have had instances where our QB's have had about 1.5 seconds to throw. fine, THROW THE BALL. Just get rid of it. don't take a sack. Don't put it up in a lob pass to be picked off. Just fire it into the sidelines or about 5 yards off the LOS into the dirt, toward a WR. Observation by a QB has to be accounted for as well. Too many times across the league I see teams lineing up at the LOS ready to bring it. The QB goes ahead and snaps the ball with 10 seconds left. Me? I stand up, take a breath and see about where the Blitz is coming from. Hopefully if I am a veteran QB all I have to do is look at my WR's and they know I am saying "Blitz route" THEN we snap the ball. It is out of my hands on a 2 step drop. OR I walk back to shotgun to give me .5 to 1 more second in case it is a fake blitz. It is astonishing to me how only a handful of QB's have this skillset in this day and time. Manning being the top guy followed by Favre. Bottom line BOTH have to help each other out. OL's must make their blocking assignments and QB's must get rid of the ball. 133921[/snapback] Well how is immobile P.Manning only got sacked 6 times this year.........I feel that if you have been a system for a while 3years or more that help everyone because you become more instinctive .
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